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I agree that in a society that views women as equals and not mere sexual/reproductive objects or marital possessions, there must be a right to refuse sex no matter their marital status. There are two big problems at work here, however.

1) What does "no" sound like, and when does it become absolute - as we all know, in the traditional female sexual submissive role where the male continues to flirt/goad/pressure, etc. for sex, an initial "no" may well be part of the foreplay, the welcome sexual tension as it were. Some women even feel that they "must" say "no" just so as not to appear too eager for sex, even though that's precisely what they want. There are probably dozens of other variations of this scenario.
That's really easy. No is absolute the moment it's said. If someone says no when they really mean yes and their potential partner responds in an appropriate way, the nay sayer is going to learn very quickly that they need to revise their approach to getting their sexual needs met. To be quite honest, this reasoning falls in line with the logic rapists prefer to attribute to women without it actually being true. Because you know, who really wants to be a rapist? It's so much easier to spew out that kind of nonsense than to actually see ones self as a monster.

2) How do you prove, legally and criminally, that a "no" (however you are defining it) actually occurred sufficient to know you're doing justice? In the overwhelming majority of "date rape" cases (and this is the most similar genre) it's purely a "he said, she said" scenario with no independent witnesses and no physical evidence. Rape is a HUGELY serious and stigmatizing criminal charge to have leveled against someone, and it even can stain the reputation if the person is later exonerated. Women have also been known to level false charges of abuse against men to better themselves and increase their child custody rights in divorce proceedings - this actually happens a lot more often than people talk about.
Men have been known to level false accusations against women lying about having been raped in numbers exponential to that of women who actually lie. Why is so much less respect given to women who claim to have been raped than victims of other crimes? Why do the police make such little effort for victims of rape when evidence isn't dropped into their lap in a black and blue package? How does any one get caught at any crime that they might commit (especially those that are violent) and why aren't these same methods used on rapists in greater numbers? Investigation isn't limited to dna and witnesses, you know. The only difficulty in incorporating proper criminal investigations into our justice system is in the apathetic and/or hateful dispositions of those who enforce the law. That starts with the police but reaches through the legal system all the way to the jury, past that and into the media.
 

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Are there other types of rape? We've been bashing guys enough in this thread. Let's explore, shall we?

Is there such thing as financial rape? If a woman is married to a man who provides a decent life for their family while mom volunteers at the church. There are 3 kids and on the surface, life is good. Below the surface, she has been brooding over the fact that he doesn't treat her "like a princess." After some time of brooding, she runs off to a college town and gets shagged as soon as she can and divorces the guy the next week. After the bloody ordeal is all over, he is left with a fifth wheel "down by the river." She sells the house, gets a condo at the beach and gets the kids every other weekend. This guy is fucked. Her lawyers were better and won by a long shot. Does anyone think that the mental implications of what he just went through are as bad as what a woman would go through after the physical act of rape? This is all hypothetical...
 

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Are there other types of rape? We've been bashing guys enough in this thread. Let's explore, shall we?

Is there such thing as financial rape? If a woman is married to a man who provides a decent life for their family while mom volunteers at the church. There are 3 kids and on the surface, life is good. Below the surface, she has been brooding over the fact that he doesn't treat her "like a princess." After some time of brooding, she runs off to a college town and gets shagged as soon as she can and divorces the guy the next week. After the bloody ordeal is all over, he is left with a fifth wheel "down by the river." She sells the house, gets a condo at the beach and gets the kids every other weekend. This guy is fucked. Her lawyers were better and won by a long shot. Does anyone think that the mental implications of what he just went through are as bad as what a woman would go through after the physical act of rape? This is all hypothetical...
The overall point of this thread was the woman being the victim. Don't derail.
 

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That's really easy. No is absolute the moment it's said. If someone says no when they really mean yes and their potential partner responds in an appropriate way, the nay sayer is going to learn very quickly that they need to revise their approach to getting their sexual needs met. To be quite honest, this reasoning sounds pretty close to the logic rapists prefer to attribute to women without it actually being true. Because you know, who really wants to be a rapist? It's so much easier to spew out that kind of nonsense than to actually see ones self as a monster.

Men have been known to level false accusations against women lying about having been raped in numbers exponential to that of women who actually lie. Why is so much less respect given to women who claim to have been raped than victims of other crimes? Why do the police make such little effort for victims of rape when evidence isn't dropped into their lap in a black and blue package? How does any one get caught at any crime that they might commit (especially those that are violent) and why aren't these same methods used on rapists in greater numbers? Investigation isn't limited to dna and witnesses, you know. The only difficulty in incorporating proper criminal investigations into our justice system is in the apathetic and/or hateful dispositions of those who enforce the law. That starts with the police but reaches through the legal system all the way to the jury, past that and into the media.
You're advocating rather than being objective here. I'm no basher of women, and you need not be defensive of them regarding my statements in this discussion. I've already acknowledged that marital rape can and does occur. I simply pointed out the extreme difficulty in implementing social policy, especially law enforcement policy, in response to that phenomenon.

Do men lie too? Absolutely. But we're talking about marital rape.

Be honest here - what is the proportion of marital rape wherein the male is the victim versus the female? I'd be shocked if it's as balanced as 5%-95%, respectively.

In this context (alleged sexual violence between spouses), however, men have a credibility disadvantage in countries with legal systems based upon the Enlightenment model, in other words based upon equal rights, due process, etc. as is found most typically in the Western world.

Why the disadvantage? Because while men and women are ostensibly legally "equal", they tend not to be physical equals, and when there's allegations of "rape", the larger, stronger men and the stereotypes that often apply to men regarding them being more interested in sex as recreation and a physical act than are women, work against them when people are trying to sort out an alleged rape incident with the sole evidence being the word of the two parties involved.

People lie. ALL people lie. But people tend to try to tell lies that they think will be believed, and women tend to believe they have the upper hand when it comes to domestic violence, and rightly so. Given that and the fact that there are few if any things that people value more than their children, and there are few things that can generate more antipathy between people than the breakup of a serious relationship, women most often are the ones exaggerating or outright lying about alleged incidents involving marital rape.

I'd invite you to provide me with evidence - not arguments, evidence - that I'm incorrect about this . . . but I'm not.
 

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Topeka Kansas Has Decriminalized Domestic Violence - Forbes

With the basic human rights of women being so grossly undervalued in this society, it's important for me to remember that those who sympathize with the plight of the accused rapist didn't ask to learn to think this way. Otherwise I may end up just hating humanity absolutely. It would be a lot easier if more of them were trying to dismantle this way of thinking though.
 
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Topeka Kansas Has Decriminalized Domestic Violence - Forbes

With the basic human rights of women being so grossly undervalued in this society, it's important for me to remember that those who sympathize with the plight of the accused rapist didn't ask to learn to think this way. Otherwise I may end up just hating humanity absolutely. It would be a lot easier if more of them were trying to dismantle this way of thinking though.
This comment reeks of a lack of perspective. Again, it suggests advocacy rather than objectivity, circumspection or intellectual honesty.

Women in the Western World today have more legal rights and a better standard of living than any women anywhere else in human history. It's not even close.

You can pick current headlines from other parts of the world, particularly the more fundamentalist Islamic societies, for far more representative examples of how women have been historically treated throughout the world.

That's not the same thing as saying that there's been enough progress in this regard, or that there aren't points of disagreement. Fair enough. But to say that women are "grossly undervalued in this society" is absurd.
 

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You're advocating rather than being objective here. I'm no basher of women, and you need not be defensive of them regarding my statements in this discussion. I've already acknowledged that marital rape can and does occur. I simply pointed out the extreme difficulty in implementing social policy, especially law enforcement policy, in response to that phenomenon.
I have no problem with being an advocate over being whatever it is that objectivity means to you. What does that mean anyway? That I'm not particularly interested in studying a very small minority of falsely accused rapists? Because I don't think it's better to let 1,000 rapists go free simply so that 1 innocent man can be exonerated.

Do men lie too? Absolutely. But we're talking about marital rape.

Be honest here - what is the proportion of marital rape wherein the male is the victim versus the female? I'd be shocked if it's as balanced as 5%-95%, respectively.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? My only point was that rapists often accuse their victims of lying. Genders of the aggressor/accused weren't meant to be applied.

In this context (alleged sexual violence between spouses), however, men have a credibility disadvantage in countries with legal systems based upon the Enlightenment model, in other words based upon equal rights, due process, etc. as is found most typically in the Western world.

Why the disadvantage? Because while men and women are ostensibly legally "equal", they tend not to be physical equals, and when there's allegations of "rape", the larger, stronger men and the stereotypes that often apply to men regarding them being more interested in sex as recreation and a physical act than are women, work against them when people are trying to sort out an alleged rape incident with the sole evidence being the word of the two parties involved.
Yeah, that's a tough break that should be dealt with too.

People lie. ALL people lie. But people tend to try to tell lies that they think will be believed, and women tend to believe they have the upper hand when it comes to domestic violence, and rightly so. Given that and the fact that there are few if any things that people value more than their children, and there are few things that can generate more antipathy between people than the breakup of a serious relationship, women most often are the ones exaggerating or outright lying about alleged incidents involving marital rape.
You're serious that women have the upper hand in cases of domestic violence? Really? Next time I find out a woman is getting beaten on regular basis by her husband, I'll be sure to let her know that. I'm sure she'll see the brilliance of such a statement and immediately embrace that it was she who had all the power all along. Seriously though, that makes no sense whatsoever.

I'd invite you to provide me with evidence - not arguments, evidence - that I'm incorrect about this . . . but I'm not.
Do your own research. Support your own arguments. You want to believe some ass backwards line of thinking about women having the upper hand, that's your problem.
 

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You're right it doesn't mean you have to act on it, but that doesn't mean anything either. If we are arguing morals, peoples' morals differ, and in the case of having sex with someone much younger than you, there isn't so much of a clear boundary. Also some people don't respect boundaries like other's do. I for instance do not care for any boundaries, but because I recognize their importance to the proper functioning of our society. I respect others boundaries when they present them to me, but in some cases, (since I have no real boundaries for myself, outside of the few I keep in order to remain a functioning member of society) this can lead to misunderstandings in intention if the boundary isn't actually stated. A lot of this debate seems to be around whether or not implied consent was given, I think a lot of marital rape cases could be avoided if the spouse only spoke up.

I've never personally been in a non-violent spousal rape situation, but I could see how it would go down from the man's point of view.
Nothing to do with morals. The same would apply no matter what age the woman is. She could be older too.
The point is you have to think with your head - the one on top.

Realise that if you're in a prominent position, that pretty piece of pussy could ruin everything you've built - your reputation, your career. . . everything! So be careful.
 

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Men have been known to level false accusations against women lying about having been raped in numbers exponential to that of women who actually lie. Why is so much less respect given to women who claim to have been raped than victims of other crimes? Why do the police make such little effort for victims of rape when evidence isn't dropped into their lap in a black and blue package? How does any one get caught at any crime that they might commit (especially those that are violent) and why aren't these same methods used on rapists in greater numbers? Investigation isn't limited to dna and witnesses, you know. The only difficulty in incorporating proper criminal investigations into our justice system is in the apathetic and/or hateful dispositions of those who enforce the law. That starts with the police but reaches through the legal system all the way to the jury, past that and into the media.
Have been known?!
It's the basis of almost every defence in a rape case.

Are there other types of rape? We've been bashing guys enough in this thread. Let's explore, shall we?

Is there such thing as financial rape? If a woman is married to a man who provides a decent life for their family while mom volunteers at the church. There are 3 kids and on the surface, life is good. Below the surface, she has been brooding over the fact that he doesn't treat her "like a princess." After some time of brooding, she runs off to a college town and gets shagged as soon as she can and divorces the guy the next week. After the bloody ordeal is all over, he is left with a fifth wheel "down by the river." She sells the house, gets a condo at the beach and gets the kids every other weekend. This guy is fucked. Her lawyers were better and won by a long shot. Does anyone think that the mental implications of what he just went through are as bad as what a woman would go through after the physical act of rape? This is all hypothetical...
Nope.

Women in the Western World today have more legal rights and a better standard of living than any women anywhere else in human history. It's not even close.

You can pick current headlines from other parts of the world, particularly the more fundamentalist Islamic societies, for far more representative examples of how women have been historically treated throughout the world.

That's not the same thing as saying that there's been enough progress in this regard, or that there aren't points of disagreement. Fair enough. But to say that women are "grossly undervalued in this society" is absurd.
Yes, they've come a long way. But doesn't mean they don't have quite some way to go.

And it doesn't mean they're not undervalued.

If something is worth $100 and you value it at $20, but then you raise the value to $40. Sure the value is much better than it used to be. But it's still a long way short of what it should be.

And telling me that in other places it's only $15 still doesn't take away from the fact that it's undervalued.
 

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Nothing to do with morals. The same would apply no matter what age the woman is. She could be older too.
The point is you have to think with your head - the one on top.

Realise that if you're in a prominent position, that pretty piece of pussy could ruin everything you've built - your reputation, your career. . . everything! So be careful.
Which is why character is really important in my dating checklist. I'm pretty picky.
 

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This comment reeks of a lack of perspective. Again, it suggests advocacy rather than objectivity, circumspection or intellectual honesty.

Women in the Western World today have more legal rights and a better standard of living than any women anywhere else in human history. It's not even close.

You can pick current headlines from other parts of the world, particularly the more fundamentalist Islamic societies, for far more representative examples of how women have been historically treated throughout the world.

That's not the same thing as saying that there's been enough progress in this regard, or that there aren't points of disagreement. Fair enough. But to say that women are "grossly undervalued in this society" is absurd.
Women are regularly denied equal wages to that of men in the workforce. In this "enlightened" society, they have been denied legal means to retaliate against abusive partners because it costs too much to prosecute these criminals. Legal means to retaliate in such cases are often insufficient protection from assault because it's not being properly enforced. When nearly all rapists walk free because of the way the crime is treated in this country, I believe that it's completely fair to say that women are being grossly undervalued.

Your insistence that I "lack perspective" while tossing around theoretical conjecture that's only basis can be found in tv land, as far as I can tell, shows who's perspective is really lacking here. I've failed to mention what happens with regard to women's rights in other parts of the world but this doesn't mean that I'm not aware of these happenings. In your quickness label this point as a lacking of circumspection, you have projected. For all the value you seem to place on objectivity, I have yet to see you support a single one of the generalizations you've made with any evidence. Intellectually dishonest, indeed.
 

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Yes, they've come a long way. But doesn't mean they don't have quite some way to go.

And it doesn't mean they're not undervalued.

If something is worth $100 and you value it at $20, but then you raise the value to $40. Sure the value is much better than it used to be. But it's still a long way short of what it should be.

And telling me that in other places it's only $15 still doesn't take away from the fact that it's undervalued.
The first three sentences you wrote are entirely in line with what I wrote. The money stuff is an unnecessary illustration.

Still, you think that 40/100 is a representative ratio of the level of legal importance and human rights that women have versus men in the United States, for example?

You think, on a 100-scale, that 40/15 is the representive ratio of legal importance and human rights that women in the United States have with women in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, for example?

In other words, the relative value of the legal importance and human rights of women in the US is less than half of that of men in the US and is overall more similar to that of women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia? Seriously?
 

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Women are regularly denied equal wages to that of men in the workforce. In this "enlightened" society, they have been denied legal means to retaliate against abusive partners because it costs too much to prosecute these criminals. Legal means to retaliate in such cases are often insufficient protection from assault because it's not being properly enforced. When nearly all rapists walk free because of the way the crime is treated in this country, I believe that it's completely fair to say that women are being grossly undervalued.

Your insistence that I "lack perspective" while tossing around theoretical conjecture that's only basis can be found in tv land, as far as I can tell, shows who's perspective is really lacking here. I've failed to mention what happens with regard to women's rights in other parts of the world but this doesn't mean that I'm not aware of these happenings. In your quickness label this point as a lacking of circumspection, you have projected. For all the value you seem to place on objectivity, I have yet to see you support a single one of the generalizations you've made with any evidence. Intellectually dishonest, indeed.
Lack the legal means? So there's no domestic violence criminal charge? No restraining orders? No community property or child custody rights in divorce?

You think that all domestic violence can be outright stopped? What an absurd utopian dream!

I've pointed out the legal hurdles to this, and you've said nothing but rather have simply dismissed them in favor of just continuing to blindly beat your favorite drum. It's tiresome. Try engaging in this discussion. It's been a rather productive one in spite of you. Come and join us.
 
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Why is so much less respect given to women who claim to have been raped than victims of other crimes? Why do the police make such little effort for victims of rape when evidence isn't dropped into their lap in a black and blue package?
If there wasn't such a gross amount of cases that don't go through as a prosecution, then maybe I'd consider what you said as truth. What other methods do you know of that can provide sufficient evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt for rape cases other than eye witnesses and DNA evidence?

Where are you getting information that police don't care nor the courts about these cases?

Yeah, testimony is black and white... because they could be lying perhaps?! If so many rape cases don't have a leg to stand on in court and it's an excuse that the woman is too much of a pussy because of all the stigma associated with the rape that I call bullshit on then it can be said MAYBE there is more at play.

A woman has to admit that she lied in order for a rape charge to be determined as false, in most studies and in most courts and communities. Most, if not all, police departments will not declare a rape charge as false just because the complainant fails to pursue the charge or does not cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge

Just look at how many celebrities are accused from baby momas and ALLEGED rape victims that end up completely false.
 
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Lack the legal means? So there's no domestic violence criminal charge? No restraining orders? No community property or child custody rights in divorce?
Did you read the article? Did you also notice that I've acknowledged that the decriminalization of domestic violence is not nationwide but there are still serious problems with it's lack of enforcement?

You think that all domestic violence can be outright stopped? What an absurd utopian dream!
Nope.

I've pointed out the legal hurdles to this, and you've said nothing but rather have simply dismissed them in favor of just continuing to blindly beat your favorite drum. It's tiresome. Try engaging in this discussion. It's been a rather productive one in spite of you. Come and join us.
You've ignored the fact that dna and witnesses aren't the only way to prosecute a rape. People often record conversations in investigations. I think that's called a sting operation? There are a handful of cases out there where such evidence has been used to obtain a guilty sentence. Cops also have this way about questioning suspects in other types of crimes that can sometimes draw out confessions that get used in court. But these tactics aren't employed at least half the time because about half of all reports are turned away, at the door. Now, admittedly, I'm not well versed in other methods of investigation but being that I can pull those two things off the top of my head, I've got to assume that there's quite a bit more that can be done. But it's not. There's nothing blind about my advocacy. I've done my homework in research. I've been in the trenches. I can throw rape statistics at you all day, if you really want. In fact, I have one report in mind that I'll need some time to dig up if you would even bother to read it. It's pretty disheartening to even try to discuss this with you though since you don't really seem interested in gaining any perspective past media driven generalizations or comparison to other countries.
 
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If something is worth $100 and you value it at $20, but then you raise the value to $40. Sure the value is much better than it used to be. But it's still a long way short of what it should be.

And telling me that in other places it's only $15 still doesn't take away from the fact that it's undervalued.
Pray tell, do express what the extra 60 dollars is for women's rights in the western world?
 

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Did you read the article? Did you also notice that I've acknowledged that the decriminalization of domestic violence is not nationwide but there are still serious problems with it's lack of enforcement?

Nope.

You've ignored the fact that dna and witnesses aren't the only way to prosecute a rape. People often record conversations in investigations. I think that's called a sting operation? There are a handful of cases out there where such evidence has been used to obtain a guilty sentence. Cops also have this way about questioning suspects in other types of crimes that can sometimes draw out confessions that get used in court. But these tactics aren't employed at least half the time because about half of all reports are turned away, at the door. Now, admittedly, I'm not well versed in other methods of investigation but being that I can pull those two things off the top of my head, I've got to assume that there's quite a bit more that can be done. But it's not. There's nothing blind about my advocacy. I've done my homework in research. I've been in the trenches. I can throw rape statistics at you all day, if you really want. In fact, I have one report in mind that I'll need some time to dig up if you would even bother to read it. It's pretty disheartening to even try to discuss this with you though since you don't really seem interested in gaining any perspective past media driven generalizations or comparison to other countries.
Please explain how all domestic violence can be stopped or at least punished, how that's not a utopian dream.

I did read the article. I regard that single article as anecdotal. Yes, domestic violence needs to be further punished, but I've also outlined why punishment of it will always fall short, frustratingly so.

I'm not like you and it frustrates you. I don't think people are perfectable. People lie, cheat, steal. They act selfishly. They're morally weak. They're fearful. They hurt people. That's not unique to a particular gender, though the genders have different tendencies.

Violence is as much a part of human nature and human life as sex, defacation and bad breath. I think we as a society try to urge people to do the best we can, and we try to force them to when they won't do their best. Even under the best of circumstances that will fall fall short because of how difficult it is to discern what goes on behind the proverbial closed doors in other peoples' relationships, much less beyond a reasonable doubt (which is the criminal standard for conviction in the US, of course).

I'm not a utopian. I'm not going to pretend that people or the systems or cultures or laws that they create are perfectable. I prefer to be realistic, not romantic. Maybe that bugs you. Maybe that makes you think I don't care. On the contrary, I care enough about this subject to look at it with open eyes. I respect the subject matter enough to be honest.

Again, if you think that there is a perfect cure to domestic violence or (to get back on topic here) marital rape, please lay it out. So far all you have done to respond to me is simply to say I'm wrong without explaining how.
 

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The first three sentences you wrote are entirely in line with what I wrote. The money stuff is an unnecessary illustration.

Still, you think that 40/100 is a representative ratio of the level of legal importance and human rights that women have versus men in the United States, for example?

You think, on a 100-scale, that 40/15 is the representive ratio of legal importance and human rights that women in the United States have with women in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, for example?

In other words, the relative value of the legal importance and human rights of women in the US is less than half of that of men in the US and is overall more similar to that of women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia? Seriously?
They were just randomly-picked numbers. They weren't meant to indicate relative values, other than to state that there was still some way to go.
 
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