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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Am I the only one who detests it when someone says a girl should get in touch with their "feminine" side? Or, for the guys, to be more "manly" or whatever?

I wish I could just say this: Femininity and masculinity are generalizations that vary within each culture. Obviously, generalizations are not absolute. It's condescending to assume the majority without regard to the minority.

Pah. It's just so annoying when I'm reading dating guides just because I want to laugh at it to hear editors basically say:

You're a girl. Shave your legs, quit burping, and lose the ability to beat up people (males especially).

Excuse me, I like burping, some places see shaved legs as unattractive, and I will fight with whoever I damn well please. Don't make it seem like I will forever be a virgin because of how awesome I am.
 

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It's just our culture. I don't really care much because as long as it doesn't effect my life in a big way, I don't care to bother with it. I'm much to concerned with my own little life inside my head.

Edit: Also, it makes life more interesting, and a better base to write Sci-Fi off of, because then we can show what a repressive yet free society looks like. I find it more amusing than anything else. Ah, people with their petty problems.
 

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It's just our culture. I don't really care much because as long as it doesn't effect my life in a big way, I don't care to bother with it. I'm much to concerned with my own little life inside my head.

Edit: Also, it makes life more interesting, and a better base to write Sci-Fi off of, because then we can show what a repressive yet free society looks like. I find it more amusing than anything else. Ah, people with their petty problems.
Agreed. Social conventions are interesting to study, gender roles especially. As I am not bothered by it too much aside from being forced to wear a skirt in school, I do not think of it.

Age roles, however, are extremely irritating.
 
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Am I the only one who detests it when someone says a girl should get in touch with their "feminine" side? Or, for the guys, to be more "manly" or whatever?

I wish I could just say this: Femininity and masculinity are generalizations that vary within each culture. Obviously, generalizations are not absolute. It's condescending to assume the majority without regard to the minority.

Pah. It's just so annoying when I'm reading dating guides just because I want to laugh at it to hear editors basically say:

You're a girl. Shave your legs, quit burping, and lose the ability to beat up people (males especially).

Excuse me, I like burping, some places see shaved legs as unattractive, and I will fight with whoever I damn well please. Don't make it seem like I will forever be a virgin because of how awesome I am.
this is a pretty standard feminist perspective. the counter argument is the evolutionary theory, which i personally believe in. look, you are free to burp and not shave all you want, but you would attract more males if you didn't. just like any male out there is free to feminize himself and disregard traditional male development (being in shape, being a leader, being a competitor, etc).

less competition for me..
 

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I find NT's not purely restricted to SJ tradition a good thing that includes masculinity and/or femininity.

As a male or female, do whatever you want but for everything you do, there are consequences where cultural and social attitudes would apply. One thing I have against these extreme social groups is that in order for them to gain momentum, they must ostracize the opposing group. For example, feminists calling out on male behavior or masculinists calling out feminine behavior. In my world, they're both just as accountable.

Next time if you want to burp, just do it. There are males like me who wouldn't give a shit. If you're been victimized, what you're facing against is that a member ostracized you, not the whole gender. Deal with the individual not the group.

this is a pretty standard feminist perspective. the counter argument is the evolutionary theory, which i personally believe in. look, you are free to burp and not shave all you want, but you would attract more males if you didn't. just like any male out there is free to feminize himself and disregard traditional male development (being in shape, being a leader, being a competitor, etc).

less competition for me..
Luckily, a counter argument for your counter argument exists.

I personally believe that evolutionary behavior is very flexible. As long as their is a way to survive the species, it doesn't matter what lifestyle its member engages in. That said, by saying males look down on females who burp or fart loudly, that's influenced by culture and not set in stone.

Those that don't abide to social norms and customs show the strength and courage normally one wouldn't dare to cross. A woman burping in public is "not socially allowed," however by doing so, she is already more confident, courageous, independent, and stronger than other women. Due to the fact she is more able to survive being socially ostracized (not giving a shit about what others think) and finding a male partner who doesn't care about her habits, their offspring would be superior to those that normally and socially abide customs. Keep this process going and the frequent nurturing among the family, not having to deal with social attitudes is a lot freer, don't you think?

Blindly following customs and traditions seems more of a SJ thing. Perhaps this is a method to convert NTs in producing SJ children. The fear...
 

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I find NT's not purely restricted to SJ tradition a good thing that includes masculinity and/or femininity.

As a male or female, do whatever you want but for everything you do, there are consequences where cultural and social attitudes would apply. One thing I have against these extreme social groups is that in order for them to gain momentum, they must ostracize the opposing group. For example, feminists calling out on male behavior or masculinists calling out feminine behavior. In my world, they're both just as accountable.

Next time if you want to burp, just do it. There are males like me who wouldn't give a shit. If you're been victimized, what you're facing against is that a member ostracized you, not the whole gender. Deal with the individual not the group.



Luckily, a counter argument for your counter argument exists.

I personally believe that evolutionary behavior is very flexible. As long as their is a way to survive the species, it doesn't matter what lifestyle its member engages in. That said, by saying males look down on females who burp or fart loudly, that's influenced by culture and not set in stone.

Those that don't abide to social norms and customs show the strength and courage normally one wouldn't dare to cross. A woman burping in public is "not socially allowed," however by doing so, she is already more confident, courageous, independent, and stronger than other women. Due to the fact she is more able to survive being socially ostracized (not giving a shit about what others think) and finding a male partner who doesn't care about her habits, their offspring would be superior to those that normally and socially abide customs. Keep this process going and the frequent nurturing among the family, not having to deal with social attitudes is a lot freer, don't you think?

Blindly following customs and traditions seems more of a SJ thing. Perhaps this is a method to convert NTs in producing SJ children. The fear...
However, the counterculture has also become a culture. The horror...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
this is a pretty standard feminist perspective. the counter argument is the evolutionary theory, which i personally believe in. look, you are free to burp and not shave all you want, but you would attract more males if you didn't. just like any male out there is free to feminize himself and disregard traditional male development (being in shape, being a leader, being a competitor, etc).

less competition for me..
What is the counter argument, exactly? I'm simply being myself, so I fail to see how evolution restricts my interests/personality a certain way if it isn't detrimental to finding a mate.

But that's fine. I'd like someone who accepts me as myself, so it'd be great to weed out the ones that think females who burp are absolutely terrifying. Same with males; I'd love to find a man who would dress up in a pink skirt if he wanted. Nonconformists are way more fun to hang out with than people who want to fit in.


Those that don't abide to social norms and customs show the strength and courage normally one wouldn't dare to cross. A woman burping in public is "not socially allowed," however by doing so, she is already more confident, courageous, independent, and stronger than other women. Due to the fact she is more able to survive being socially ostracized (not giving a shit about what others think) and finding a male partner who doesn't care about her habits, their offspring would be superior to those that normally and socially abide customs. Keep this process going and the frequent nurturing among the family, not having to deal with social attitudes is a lot freer, don't you think?
Yes, it is! In my case, though, my parents let me do whatever I wanted without regard to social norms, and then started trying to make me "feminine" as I reached puberty. It's frustrating being free as a child, and then being forced to do your hair when I go to the grocery store. I'd imagine it would be the same way finding a job.

And hell yes Ari Marionette.
 

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Of course so...
I hated for years what the feminine side meant, because it meant prejudice, weak will and love for kids (I will never get this, NEVER).
The part about shaving legs is not that stupid, but anyway, girl. What I mean is that at times, you're with someone, and you do anything to have sex with him xDD don't get me wrong, he may do something you like and you do other things he likes. No domination really.
Of course feminine and masculine are more of a gender thing than anything. I'm myself a very masculine girl, because I don't make up, I don't wear many miniskirts, and I behave like a boy. In many aspects, I think I'm like a boy more than a girl. Anyway, I don't care. I do care much about my sexuality, and I will always potentiate it, but it has nothing to do with feminity. Do you know how sexy asexuality is? :p
I can't beat your reasoning. Impecable. I like what that happens. :)
I have a poster, that says "Deconstruction is sexy".
Nothing more to say about me I guess.

You remind me of myself when I was your age. You will eat the fucking world, girl. xD.
 
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What is the counter argument, exactly? I'm simply being myself, so I fail to see how evolution restricts my interests/personality a certain way if it isn't detrimental to finding a mate.

But that's fine. I'd like someone who accepts me as myself, so it'd be great to weed out the ones that think females who burp are absolutely terrifying. Same with males; I'd love to find a man who would dress up in a pink skirt if he wanted. Nonconformists are way more fun to hang out with than people who want to fit in..
as a fellow INTP, i also identify myself as a non-conformist. I dress my own way, I like my own music, I watch my own movies, and I also tell NT's to back off when I want to watch the damn sports game.

The evolutionary perspective is essentially a continuation of "survival of the fittest". A majority of women and a majority of men are programmed biologically so that they will seek out strong candidates.

"I am being myself" is an excuse for the ego to condone current behaviors. For example, If someone is a nervous wreck and they blow their chance in a job interview is this merely a case of "X being himself"? Not in my opinion.

you have the ability to chose how you want to present yourself to the world. if you want to be a chill girl who can hang with the guys, thats great. all i mean to say is don't knock other girls who put themselves together in an appealing fashion. men also are free to be "conformist pigs", its how we built the world.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to know if you thought all women naturally are what their society perceives as feminine, and any woman who breaks that norm is 1. Genetically inferior, or 2. Lying to herself.

And no, I don't think badly of woman who are "feminine" and men who strive to be "masculine." As long as they truly do exhibit those traits and not faking it, I'm cool. For the actual conformists who will do whatever society tells them to do blindly, I honestly can't blame them. But, I suppose it'd be extremely difficult to tell if someone was born with a trait, or if it was pounded into them as a child.

I suppose since I'm cooped up in my room all day, I'll have a harder time understanding why more people won't question rules and expectations. I apologize if I'm coming off as incompetent.
 

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Am I the only one who detests it when someone says a girl should get in touch with their "feminine" side? Or, for the guys, to be more "manly" or whatever?
Same here. Gender stereotypes, in my opinion, are severely out-dated. While I personally prefer to see womens' legs shaved, for cosmetic reasons, they aren't my legs. In fact, a biology nerd friend of mine mentioned that leg hair is there for balance and coordination. Lose that and you make yourself more vulnerable. The same is obviously true of high heel shoes.

As far as burping goes, it happens. As long as it isn't forced or excessive, who cares?

My preference is for total equality but I seem to be in the minority on that. Guys are "supposed to" do all stereotypically male things and women are "supposed to" do all the stereotypically female things. Bah! If being me makes a person uninterested, their loss!
 

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Meh. Nobody's really told me to act like a lady since I was a teenager so I don't really care. i have a feminine appearance but I do and say gross things sometimes, definitely not so much since I've gotten OLD(26!) but I still have no real *shame*.

When I was younger I actually attracted men with my androgynous views/vibe/attitude. Straight men lol, some of them are really into it.
 
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As others have mentioned, I think there's a key difference between people being themselves/not adhering to gender roles in society in general and how this all plays out in romantic/dating relationships.


I honestly don't believe that people are in control of what they are attracted to, and I see no need in someone trying to force themselves to be with someone or like someone just to break a norm instead of it being a genuine attraction. That would be like telling a gay guy that he should be attracted to women (except in the opposite direction).


So I think when it comes to friendships, family relationships, professional relationships, etc., then you're right, people should feel free to be themselves and others should not judge them or force them to be different...they should seek to understand and accept these differences. But when you get into the area of romantic relationships, it's a total different ball game...and as others have mentioned, these dating magazines exist to sell themselves based on popular opinion, they're not trying to make a statement about proper gender roles.


That's not to say that whole thing isn't frustrating. I'm a guy who has a lot of traditionally "feminine" characteristics, and a lot of times it's not particularly attractive to women. But there's no point in getting mad at them for what they find attractive...it just means that I'll have to navigate my way through a lot more to find the right one for me, if that's ever what I end up wanting in life.
 
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I love the archetypal aesthetic of masculine/feminine. For real people, they are what they are. I like that I can go between "masculine" and "feminine" roles pretty readily. NT women are not exactly the image of delicate femininity and never could be, but we are sexy nevertheless. :laughing:
 
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