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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #21
@aestrivex @LeaT @Swordsman of Mana

What do you think of SEE for me - just wondering? I'm underlying the things that apply.

SEEs are active, energetic, and assiduous individuals who try to apply their energy and initiative to worldly tasks. They may often be natural leaders who do not hesitate to take the initiative in any endeavor, and possess the ability to motivate others into levels of greater activity and determination.
Exactly how I operate IRL.
They may, even moreso than SLEs, adopt a strategy of solving problems through sheer force of will rather than depth of strategy or insight.
Not sure, but I think this can be the case... I think pretty well on my feet.

SEEs may have an unerringly proactive, real-world focus; their ambitions are usually centered around furthering some real world cause or doing some good in society rather than compulsive power-seeking.
This is actually true. I don't seek power in society. To me, power is *autonomy.* If someone tries to overpower or control me that's not okay, and they won't get very far - but as long as I am in control I don't feel the need to assert my power and gain more power. Hwever I am *always* aiming for a real-world cause. Even studying socionics, mbti and enneagram is primarily for my characters & book, though I felt I need to understand myself first, to do this well. Everything I do is for my goals. I want to be rich for the sake of my autonomy & personal needs (like my very expensive illness & medications that I need to survive) but I don't care about moving up the social ladder or that kind of power.

They can be shrewd, tactful, and sensitive negotiators and often apply their energy to the arena of persuading, activating, and motivating others.
I've motivated others a lot in real life, usually by doing what I do and they learn from it. Shrewd, tactful??? Not sure about that. I'm fairly tactless at times, and I don't think I'm shrewd. Although if you cross me you're done. For instance when I was running an apartment, if a roommate refused to pay or tried to undermine me, they would be lucky if they even got a warning before getting kicked out - which shocked them, because I seem so nice and sweet otherwise.

SEEs are typically extroverts in every sense of the word. They are socially spontaneous, hyperactive, engaging, and enthusiastic. They may be predominantly oriented towards parties or other social gatherings, and may frequently and compulsively seek out new acquaintances, stimuli, or experiences.

Meh, I spend a lot of time by myself & in nature, and I like that. I prefer old friends to new acquaintances. I am engaging and sometimes spontaneous but I don't think I'm hyperactive.

They often seek to augment the depth or intensity of their involvement in any affair -- including but not limited to exerting their emotional and physical energy. They may periodically seek out new stories, gadgets, media, or other things to obsess themselves over.
Blush, I can get pretty obsessed with stories, media, etc. (Enneagram also became an obsession for example.)
Intensity - yesyesyesyeess. "If it's not worth doing in excess it's not worth doing at all!!!"

Often they direct their energies to the sphere of social relations, in which they can exhibit a sense of obsessive attachment, intimacy, or closeness with others, sometimes leading contacts to feel smothered or uncomfortable due to a lack of emotional space. They may go about developing close relationships with a variety of acquaintances, effectively developing widespread social networks with a wide range of close contacts.
Hmm, not sure, maybe. I can get pretty emotionally intense... but I need a lot of time to myself, too.

SEE are sensitive to the physical stimuli around them and may seek to overload themselves with the experience of the moment. They may tend towards materialistic lifestyles, sporting large collections of various kinds of gadgets or media. They adapt quickly to the changing needs of their environment and may shift quickly from hedonistic indolence to a state of vigor and vitality.

I am sensitive to physical stimuli.
Overload with experience of the moment? Maybe at times.
Materialistic - not so much, although I do have a lot of stuff.... but my stuff is mostly "useful."
Adapt - yeah.
The bolded - yes, ridiculously so.

They can often appear to act in a sudden, impulsive, uncontrolled, and confused fashion.
Lol, I have no idea how i appear but I don't think I've been called "confused" - I'm pretty focused. People who know me well would certainly call me impulsive, and usually do.


 

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Discussion Starter #22
" SEEs face no difficulty when undertaking activities that require focused attention on small details of their surroundings; yet they are as likely to overlook such details when those are unimportant for the goals they are pursuing at the moment." - one example of what I mean. My former SEE boss was very able to spot physical details, and act on them, when they concerned something he saw as important to his goals. On the other hand, my first and only experience of being in a car that ran out of fuel while being driven was with him, in a car that he was driving, in the context of a business trip. He was so focused on the business aspects of the trip that he did not even think of getting gas, and did not notice the meter in the panel.
Precisely. I have trouble doing more than one thing at a time.
 

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Maybe, maybe.

It is not the most outlandish of possibilities; it is at any rate an Fi valuing type. The character of SEEs is certainly as industrious as you are describing yourself, but it is not so morally firm or steadfast as the way I interpreted your early description of yourself. I am not particularly inclined to prefer it over ESI.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
@aestrivex - I appreciate the feedback. I will look into this further. At this point I'm seeing that I need to learn what the quadras are, and how each function operates in socionics.
 

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@Maybe
you strike me as too introspective and fantasy oriented to be Se dom. SEE is said to take a lot of action but not do much reflecting. ESI works nicely in my opinion (perhaps ESI-Se)
 
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Animal,

after interacting with you a bit more and seeing more sides of you, I am inclined to see you as IEE. This typing has a few loose ends but it gathers up a lot of data and makes sense of it. While you describe yourself as a strong-willed person with an inner strength of spirit, I think this point is overemphasized and poorly interpreted, and I also think that you are very confused about yourself.

What is true, is that you have strength of moral fiber. I feel you have shown this in a number of ways -- among them the convincing demonstrations in the enneagram forum where you "refuse" to fight with others and instead force yourself to interpret others' comments constructively. The observations about good faith, stand tall.

Another observation that I did not pay much attention to before, is your self-reporting of being highly accommodating and highly socially active, indeed having a carefree and "wild" youth. Yet you also show this clear moral courage. Whereas previously I had not considered this point a lot, I realized this could point to IEE -- with the moral courage being more situational than was let on.


As mentioned before, I think you are very confused about yourself. I think you are a 3, and not an 8 (or a 1 or 4 or the other things I previously suggested). The principal observation is that most of your typing as 8 relies on explanations the importance of your strength to you and being in control. However, in the contexts you are describing them, this strength is strength of character and willpower of the self, not strength of impactful action regarding others. These are 3ish themes -- a slant on self-achievement. You also described lust as having to do with sexual desire, and especially an exhibitionistic expression of it in your youth. You also mentioned bigness, but again this bigness had to do with self identification (willpower) and not worldly circumstances (moving boulders to get things done).

Coming with the 3ish themes is a persistent and unshakeable ego identification with the strength and character of 8. I think I realized this was there to begin with -- that there was something "very wrong" with your descriptions of typing at 8, but I did not realize its depth. This is an image triad issue.


It is quite odd to think of an IEE with such an orientation towards ambition and self-improvement. But I am strongly convinced of the quadra values of good faith judgment, and in passing on these nonfundamental (non quadra values related) oddities, I think the pieces fit into place.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
@aestrivex - I really do appreciate your observations. I agree that I am IEE - it seems to make the most sense - though I still need to learn more about socionics. Thank you for your opinion.

I would never get angry about an enneagram type suggestion - I only get angry when people use enneatype suggestions to insult others. I, myself, mistyped at 3 before typing at 8; despite MANY people suggesting 8 to me and many people telling me that I'm not a 3. For a short while, it felt right, but once I learned more about enneagram, it ceased to make sense in a deep way.

My mind is still open and I do appreciate the observation. I also know it's coming from a good place - you're not insulting me, or saying "You're shallow and stupid therefore you are this type." But you are wrong about your interpretation of my typing at 8. It's not your fault - because you don't know me well yet. Based on a small amount of data, many very well-informed people would type me at 3, but after knowing me better, it becomes clear that it's not even in my tritype. I have no problem, or issue, with the type 3, or with seeing myself as a 3, except that it is simply inaccurate.

I'm not going to justify my typing here, but over time, let me know if your observations change, or if you see more that points you to 3. I'm all ears. =)

And just fyi, my interpretation of lust is not 'sexual lust' - it is precisely the lust that Naranjo, Maitri, and other authors would describe and associate with 8: triumph over adversity, powerlust, emptiness being filled with conquests, denial of shame and vulnerability, vengeance on the world which rejected you, taking what you want, etc. Any enneatype can experience sexual lust. When I mistyped at 5, even, I spoke of my sexual lust quite freely, and when people told me I was an 8, I told them, "That is ridiculous - any type can be turned on - we are all human."

I've also had the kind of life where I was very, very unhealthy after a trauma and explored my worst potentials. Over many years I rose out of this hell and matured. The perspective of my whole life points to 8 and not 3.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Enneatype 3 is "The marketing orientation." 3s feel worthless unless others buy the image that they're selling. The idea that all 3's are industrious is incorrect. That is a "what," not a "why." 3s can be industrious in order to show the world their worth, and uphold the image of industriousness and success. A 3 could also think it's cool to be 'bohemian' and play down his finances in order to be seen as 'free-spirited.' Still these people would both be 3's because they have an image of themselves that they want the world to buy, and they sell it. Success, to a 3, means that the world/ other people have bought their image.

This is not what success is about to me. Success is about being completely in control of my own life. Nobody else having a say in what I do. Success means control, simply put. Success means I control my illness as best as I can, and I don't care if other people think I control it, or if they see me as an invalid - I set my own standard and that's it. Success means I am doing what I love and what I want to do, and doing it up to my standard, whether it sells or not. I'll be honest, my album didn't sell - the music industry is shit right now and I'm not signed. But it's still a success to me because I did it, and I did everything myself, my own way, and expressed myself honestly. I don't care if anyone else likes it because it is honest. But, some people have told me that my singing through my whispery voice inspired them to take up singing or to do something they were afraid of. This made me feel great, even made me cry - and crying was nearly an impossible feat for me for years.

In the past when I was traumatized I was cold, but still hungry. I wanted to take from the world and make it pay for everything it took from me. There was emptiness and hunger like I can't describe - I called myself a vampire because of the cold and detached way I wanted to suck the blood out of life just to feel alive, to feel anything at all. I turned to substances to try to control my mind, my emotions, and my work. I had to be on top in relationships, to possess people and be in control, but I wouldn't commit because I was terrified to make myself vulnerable. Other people called me ruthless, or crude... I didn't care. It was not about them - it was about getting what I want. I held on to my integrity because I never lied about what I want, and I thought the people who decided to deal with me were digging their own grave so they deserved what they got. In my eyes my suitors were weak, but convenient. I was in a really bad place and it's not the bad place that I see in type 3s. It was not about the impression I give to the world but rather, losing control & autonomy & money, having no control over my body, and seeking control in all the wrong ways. When a man would tell me he needed me or loved me I would tell him he's weak, pathetic, and should get his own life. If he wanted to 'save me' I'd tell him such a pathetic, pointless endeavor only proves that he ought to instead focus on saving his damn self. A few men got slapped in the face when they tried to 'love me' or 'need me.' I wasn't having it. When I say I've been to the lowest of the lows, I mean it - and there are worse things I won't write here, too.

I would say "it was disgusting" but I still don't feel any shame about it. The only regret I have is pushing away someone I could have truly loved because I convinced myself I didn't love him and he was just an object like everyone else. I denied having any vulnerable feelings (not TO HIM, but WITHIN MYSELF) until it was too late. After that (ten years ago) I did some serious self-work , improvement, learning compassion and forgiveness in any way I could, and I moved to the city where I lead my band and got an apartment that I divided into many rooms. As a leader people jokingly called me "hitler" but they thought I was industrious and I got shit done. I had no issue kicking someone out who fucked me over, lied to me or didn't pay rent. I was still pretty hardened and selfish and used people for my purposes, though I also had compassion and reached out to those who were truly in need, who were suffering, who I felt were honest and whose strength I could build up. Still I never let anyone do this for me - I retained my independence out of necessity. After leaving the city I continued to grow because I had a 2-year relationship and actually opened up to someone. I still have trouble acknowledging vulnerable feelings. I still experience denial of shame and feelings even though I know this happens.... I can't stop it. I know that the truth of the matter is, I have always feared that one day I'll die of a broken heart. All of my defenses protect me from this complete surrender and vulnerablity. I want to surrender, to lose control, to trust, to fall into someone... but I push people away because my heart tells me that trusting someone completely, giving to them, and then being betrayed is the only thing that would cause me to lose the will to live. To me, protecting myself from vulnerability is a survival issue - the worst, and most extreme conflict I face. In a world as cruel as this, it is simply stupid and impractical not to be selfish, to reach out, to open yourself to someone else. But on the other hand it feels good to give and to trust. And I want to surrender. It's a serious issue I've never managed to resolve and I am trying, to this day.

I don't care if you believe I'm an 8 or not - I'm not saying this to convince you. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect any opinion you might have. But if you want a bit of a wider picture there you have it. I may or may not be mistyped, just like anyone else on PerC, but typing at 8 was not some light, careless decision that I made because I think it's cool, or because I enjoy having an orgasm.
 

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But you are wrong about your interpretation of my typing at 8. It's not your fault - because you don't know me well yet.
It is not likely we will ever agree. But I am not bothered by this disagreement at all, because you have listened and treated reasonably and simply disagree, and I am glad that you are not either (I believed that you would not be, indeed -- otherwise it is unlikely I would have posted this).


It is of no consequence to me whatsoever how many people agree with you that you are an 8. As I have said -- I opine that your treatment of most of the enneagram is conceptually weak, and that your self-concept is twisted and confused.

And just fyi, my interpretation of lust is not 'sexual lust' - it is precisely the lust that Naranjo, Maitri, and other authors would describe and associate with 8: triumph over adversity, powerlust, emptiness being filled with conquests, denial of shame and vulnerability, vengeance on the world which rejected you, taking what you want, etc. Any enneatype can experience sexual lust.
It is clear to me that your interpretation of lust is not merely in the domain of sexuality. However, you made a comment -- it may have been offhand and of no psychological meaning -- that you reflected on your history of feeling the need to take nude photos of yourself in various circumstances and this was somehow related to your lustfulness, and in general that the strength of your sexuality in the past *should* have been obvious to you.

I do not agree that what you are describing in essence is the lust of 8s. In particular, "denial of shame" and "triumph over adversity" and "emptiness being filled" are more correctly the domain of 3 than 8. The difference, as I would describe it, is that 3s "conquest" is internal -- it is something directly reflecting the character of the self to be "achieved."

The lust and conquest of 8s is directed towards other agents in the world, the actions of whom are "wrong" in some way. It is as a response to these external things that 8s experience their expansiveness -- the message being "Everything was good until some asshole stole my bike, so I will kill him and take the bike and thus make it better again." Not realizing that the act of killing the asshole (or indeed more precisely, the anger and negativity that comes from appraising the situation in such a way) makes this outcome worse and not better.

I see none of this other-directed lust in your reflections.

I've also had the kind of life where I was very, very unhealthy after a trauma and explored my worst potentials. Over many years I rose out of this hell and matured. The perspective of my whole life points to 8 and not 3.
This perspective points to 3. Your maturity is something you *achieved* for yourself in spite of vicissitudinous circumstances. It is not something external that you *moved* because of the actions of others.
 

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Enneatype 3 is "The marketing orientation." 3s feel worthless unless others buy the image that they're selling. The idea that all 3's are industrious is incorrect.
I fully, thoroughly, disagree with what you have written so far. I think industry and accomplishment has everything to do with type 3. And this sheds some light on our disagreement.

This is not what success is about to me. Success is about being completely in control of my own life. Nobody else having a say in what I do. Success means control, simply put. Success means I control my illness as best as I can, and I don't care if other people think I control it, or if they see me as an invalid - I set my own standard and that's it. Success means I am doing what I love and what I want to do, and doing it up to my standard, whether it sells or not. I'll be honest, my album didn't sell - the music industry is shit right now and I'm not signed. But it's still a success to me because I did it, and I did everything myself, my own way, and expressed myself honestly. I don't care if anyone else likes it because it is honest. But, some people have told me that my singing through my whispery voice inspired them to take up singing or to do something they were afraid of. This made me feel great, even made me cry - and crying was nearly an impossible feat for me for years.
Again, my opinion is that this is 3ish. The orientation on "control" for 8s and 3s is somewhat different -- 3s feel successful as long as they are in control of "themselves." 8s need to be in control of the environment as it is affected by the other autonomous and unjustly-acting agents around them -- which in your example here you dismiss as of no importance.

Which is not to say that 3s are not affected by external appraisals of their success. But rather than external appraisals, their sense of competence and achievement is related to their own industry.

In the past when I was traumatized I was cold, but still hungry. I wanted to take from the world and make it pay for everything it took from me. There was emptiness and hunger like I can't describe - I called myself a vampire because of the cold and detached way I wanted to suck the blood out of life just to feel alive, to feel anything at all. I turned to substances to try to control my mind, my emotions, and my work. I had to be on top in relationships, to possess people and be in control, but I wouldn't commit because I was terrified to make myself vulnerable. Other people called me ruthless, or crude... I didn't care. It was not about them - it was about getting what I want. I held on to my integrity because I never lied about what I want, and I thought the people who decided to deal with me were digging their own grave so they deserved what they got. In my eyes my suitors were weak, but convenient. I was in a really bad place and it's not the bad place that I see in type 3s.
Respectfully, the emptiness and lack of feeling is characteristic of type 3. The need to maintain integrity in your own eyes is also characteristic -- unhealthy 8s have few qualms about the morality of their controllingness.

I would say "it was disgusting" but I still don't feel any shame about it. The only regret I have is pushing away someone I could have truly loved because I convinced myself I didn't love him and he was just an object like everyone else. I denied having any vulnerable feelings (not TO HIM, but WITHIN MYSELF) until it was too late. After that (ten years ago) I did some serious self-work , improvement, learning compassion and forgiveness in any way I could, and I moved to the city where I lead my band and got an apartment that I divided into many rooms. As a leader people jokingly called me "hitler" but they thought I was industrious and I got shit done. I had no issue kicking someone out who fucked me over, lied to me or didn't pay rent. I was still pretty hardened and selfish and used people for my purposes, though I also had compassion and reached out to those who were truly in need, who were suffering, who I felt were honest and whose strength I could build up. Still I never let anyone do this for me - I retained my independence out of necessity. After leaving the city I continued to grow because I had a 2-year relationship and actually opened up to someone. I still have trouble acknowledging vulnerable feelings. I still experience denial of shame and feelings even though I know this happens.... I can't stop it. I know that the truth of the matter is, I have always feared that one day I'll die of a broken heart. All of my defenses protect me from this complete surrender and vulnerablity. I want to surrender, to lose control, to trust, to fall into someone... but I push people away because my heart tells me that trusting someone completely, giving to them, and then being betrayed is the only thing that would cause me to lose the will to live. To me, protecting myself from vulnerability is a survival issue - the worst, and most extreme conflict I face. In a world as cruel as this, it is simply stupid and impractical not to be selfish, to reach out, to open yourself to someone else. But on the other hand it feels good to give and to trust. And I want to surrender. It's a serious issue I've never managed to resolve and I am trying, to this day.

I don't care if you believe I'm an 8 or not - I'm not saying this to convince you. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect any opinion you might have. But if you want a bit of a wider picture there you have it. I may or may not be mistyped, just like anyone else on PerC, but typing at 8 was not some light, careless decision that I made because I think it's cool, or because I enjoy having an orgasm.
I could go on, but it is more pointing out that your story is self-deceitful, rather than deceitful to others, and that it has characteristics of type 3.

As an aside, I think Hitler was a 4.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
It is not likely we will ever agree. But I am not bothered by this disagreement at all, because you have listened and treated reasonably and simply disagree, and I am glad that you are not either (I believed that you would not be, indeed -- otherwise it is unlikely I would have posted this).
Yes. I know and I do appreciate you taking the time. It's just that what you're describing is a misinterpretation of who I am. I'm not suggesting it's a misinterpretation of enneagram.

I did not feel the 'need' to take nude photos. I am an artist and I express myself honestly. I feel as though I'm a vessel through which art emerges. I allow it to do so. Nude photos don't have to do with sexuality. It has to do with vulnerability. None of my nude photos were remotely sexual. It was more like, an image of being naked at the piano, stripped and laid bare with my emotions and everything that the world took from me. Nothing to do with sex, actually. It had more to do with dominance over my own destiny and the will to conquer hardship. I wrote 'lust is the root of all evil' on these photos because I knew that I was destructive towards others because of my own fear of vulnerability.

It's reasons like this why I feel like I'm being misinterpreted even though you're making very poignant insights. But, I realize it's not obvious. Art is art and it speaks for itself, but I"m not willing to share those photos so instead I am trying to explain something in words that shouldn't be. =P

Again, I do thank you for taking the time though. I will think this through because some of your observations are interesting even if I don't agree on the type implications.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
8s need to be in control of the environment as it is affected by the other autonomous and unjustly-acting agents around them -- which in your example here you dismiss as of no importance.
Sigh. Here are some excerpts from Naranjo on type 8. I could do this all day but I need to get to work so I'll stick with Naranjo for now.

Also “the appeal of life lies in its mastery. It chiefly entails his determination, conscious or unconscious, to overcome every obstacle—in or outside himself—and the belief that he should be able, and in fact is able, to do so. He should be able to master the adversities of fate, the difficulties of a situation, the intricacies of intellectual problems, the resistances of other people, conflicts in himself. The reverse side of the necessity for mastery is his dread of anything connoting helplessness; this is the most poignant dread he has.”10

Autonomy

As Horney has remarked, we could not expect anything other than self-reliance in one who approaches others as potential competitors or targets of exploitation. Along with the characteristic autonomy of ennea-type VIII is the idealization of autonomy, a corresponding rejection of dependency and passive oral strivings. The rejection of these passive traits is so striking that Reich postulated that phallic-narcissistic character constitutes precisely a defense against them.16

Vs. type 3

c) Closely related to the pursuit of success are also the traits of control over self as well as over others, and dominance. These are typically observed in parents in their behavior toward their children, whom they may overpower through unsought advice and the insistence on having things done their way (even in the case of choices that would be more fitting for the children to make on their own).

Which is not to say that 3s are not affected by external appraisals of their success. But rather than external appraisals, their sense of competence and achievement is related to their own industry.
Naranjo on type 3
We also find a description of a “Plastic Woman”: “In an effort to obtain strokes, she encases herself in plastic: bright jewelry, platform heels, foxy clothes, intriguing perfumes, and dramatic make-up. She tries to buy beauty and OKness, but never really succeeds. She feels chronically one-down of ‘media beauty’ women whom she idolizes in women’s magazines and the movies… . When superficial beauty can no longer be bought and pasted on, she ends up depressed: she gets no strokes that she truly values, either from herself or from others. She may try to fill the void with alcohol, tranquilizers, or other chemicals. As an older woman, she often fills her life with trivia and her house with knick-knacks.”


“A dominant characteristic in women with hysterical personality is their emotional lability. They relate easily to others and are capable of warm and sustained emotional involvements—with the important exception of an inhibition in their sexual responsiveness. They are usually dramatic and even histrionic, but their display of affects is controlled and has socially adaptive qualities. The way they dramatize their emotional experiences may give the impression that their emotions are superficial, but exploration reveals otherwise: their emotional experiences are authentic. These women may be emotionally labile, but they are not inconsistent or unpredictable in their emotional reactions. They lose emotional control only selectively, vis-a-vis a few closely related persons concerning whom they have intense conflicts, especially of a sexual and competitive nature.”

Respectfully, the emptiness and lack of feeling is characteristic of type 3.
He adds that: “even though hysterical women are prone to emotional crisis they have the capacity to ‘snap out’ of such crises and evaluate them realistically afterwards” and that “they may cry easily and tend toward sentimentality and romanticism, but their cognitive capacities are intact.” This is in contradiction with Shapiro’s observation8 of “a cognitive style of hysterical patients characterized by their tendency toward global perception, selective inattention, and impressionistic rather than accurate representations”—all of which, I think, fits the histrionic ennea-type II well.


The need to maintain integrity in your own eyes is also characteristic -- unhealthy 8s have few qualms about the morality of their controllingness.
Integrity is a different thing than morality. Justice & 'your own brand of integrity' regardless of outside standards is actually characteristic of 8.
She elaborates on the pride in the honesty, fairness, and justice of the vindictive person. “Needless to say, he is neither honest, fair nor just and cannot possibly be so. On the contrary, if anybody is determined—unconsciously—to bluff his way through life with a disregard for truth, it is he … But we can understand his belief that he possesses these attributes to a high degree if we consider his premises. To hit back or—preferably—to hit first appears to him (logically!) as an indispensable weapon against the crooked and hostile world around him. It is nothing but intelligent, legitimate self-interest. Also, not questioning the validity of his claims, his anger, and the expression of it must appear to him as entirely warranted and ‘frank.’ “There is still another factor which greatly contributes to his conviction that he is a particularly honest person and which is important to mention. He sees around him many compliant people who pretend to be more loving, more sympathetic, more generous than they actually are. And in this regard he is indeed more honest. He does not pretend to be a friendly person; in fact he disdains doing so.”

That is unfortunately the exact type of 'integrity' I refer to. "At least I was honest and didn't pretend to love."

I could go on, but it is more pointing out that your story is self-deceitful, rather than deceitful to others, and that it has characteristics of type 3.
Self-deceit of type 3 has to do with believing that you ARE the image you project. Self-deceit of type 8 has to do with denial of shame and vulnerable emotions.

Also closely related to the hostile characteristic of ennea-type VIII are traits of toughness, manifest through such descriptors as “confrontativeness,” “intimidation,” “ruthlessness,” “callousness.” Such characteristics are clearly a consequence of an aggressive style of life, not compatible with fear or weakness, sentimentality or pity. Related to this unsentimental, realistic, direct, brusque, blunt quality, there is a corresponding disdain for the opposite qualities of weakness, sensitivity and, particularly, fear. We may say that a specific instance of the toughening of the psyche is an exaggerated risk-taking characteristic, through which the individual denies his own fears and indulges the feeling of power generated by his internal conquest. Risk-taking, in turn, feeds lust, for the type VII individual has learned to thrive on anxiety as a source of excitement, and rather than suffering, he has—through an implicit masochistic phenomenon—learned to wallow in its sheer intensity. Just as his palate has learned to interpret the painful sensations of a hot spice as pleasure, anxiety—and/or, rather the process of hardening oneself against it—has become, more than a pleasure, a psychological addiction, something without which life seems tasteless and boring.

Vs. 3

Ennea-type III not only cares for appearance but also has developed a skill in presentation; presenting others, presenting things and ideas. The special flair for selling and advertising that characterizes these individuals would seem to be a generalization of an ability that was originally developed in the service of “selling” and promoting themselves. Thus they not only are interested in such things as their clothing and cosmetics and exhibiting good manners, they are expert packagers of goods and information and excel in the advertising industry. The trait of promoting others, explicitly or implicitly, can be akin to a complementary one: the ability to present things or people in a bad light, to manipulate their image in an adverse way—which may be done not only through slander but also through a sophisticated social skill whereby it is possible to seem nice while back-stabbing an opponent or competitor.

Other Directedness

Closely related to this group of traits having to do with concern about appearance and the skill in self-preservation is another having to do with the values according to which the ideal self is shaped. These are characteristically neither intrinsic nor original but external to the individual, who is the most other-directed among all the characters and has developed a skill in conducting an implicit and ongoing “marketing research” in the entourage as a point of reference for his thinking, feeling, and action.

The trait of identification with prevalent values embodies both other-directedness and the chameleon quality of type III in general, i.e., his or her readiness to change in attitude or appearance according to fashions. Related to this other-directed characteristic, in turn, is the progressive but conservative disposition of ennea-type III—a disposition not unqualifiedly conservative, as in type IX, but a combination of conformity with a striving for progress or excellence (that results in an orientation to what is modern and avant-garde) without being radical. In practice what is both modern and shows itself tobe modern without throwing traditional values into question is scientific progress and thus again a root of technocratic orientation that is so characteristic of ennea-type III psychology.


As an aside, I think Hitler was a 4.
Lol, Hitler does not strike me as 8ish in the slightest. Also I have often considered 4w3 typing for myself.
 
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