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MBTI and Neuroscience

12K views 120 replies 21 participants last post by  lecomte 
#1 · (Edited)
I have started to find more resources for the work being done by Dario Nardi and I have been listening to podcasts with him and I find that it adds so much to my understanding of each function and of people's abilities and personalities.
There are insights here beyond what Jung observed, I believe... it is amazing to figure out all of the things our brains can do. Here is his awesome PowerPoint.

https://www.pdx.edu/sysc/sites/www.pdx.edu.sysc/files/neuro-systems.pdf


I'll give an example: Nardi said for an INFP they get in flow state while listening to others as do ISFPs and he said dom Fi try to keep in that flow state for as long as possible after someone has spoken. Basically they are the gold medal winners of listening. Well, I immediately recognized this in my husband, that he is in flow state when he is listening. I now recognize this as a expertise in INFPs that is rare and wonderful.

I see the slides in the PowerPoint of INTPs and embarrassment and this immediately went to good use with my daughter. If I somehow get her to the point where she feels embarrassed then it is probably a crisis for her, very overwhelming.

Has anyone read Nardi's books? Did you like them? What do you guys see in each function after reading this that you didn't know before?
 
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#2 ·
What gets me is that western society is completely clueless that there are types of people that are different where they are meditative minded and have a different ways of being and doing things. A good way to search for what I mean by this is to look up zen brain, western society makes this kind of brain function poorly and at a lower level than would have been natural mainly through over stress and there being too much going on all at once. The education system for this type of brain sucks big time as everything has to move at a class pace often gimping learning and performance. The work place is often hell for those with this type of brain because it is not natural and toxic.
 
#3 ·
https://personalityhacker.com/podcast-episode-0150-neuroscience-of-personality-with-dr-dario-nardi/


I was pretty surprised about all eNFPs being the most uniform of all brains. Lol. But his explanation was sweet “ENFPs basically have everything they need already in any situation.” It doesn’t FEEL that way! Especially since Ne don has the toughest time of all types getting into flow state.

I have a grandiose dream that if I ever got him to scan my brain that he would tell me my brain does some Ni. Lol. But no... it sounds like our dominant function is what he sees the most. He said INFP and INTP only rarely and briefly show Christmas tree pattern. I want the halo flow of a INFP when I listen to people. I want the blue totally flow of a INFJ whenever they see a new concept. But okay, Christmas trees are nice too. I wouldn’t want to feel like I had absolutely nothing going on in the Ti box. He did say that one ENFP he saw used Te dom functions for a solid hour during concentration activities and then went into Christmas tree.

On another podcast he talks about aging and how a INFJ is going to look like a ISTP later in life and often chooses different interests. He brings up that a INFJ who made his living in music composition later started a house-flipping construction business. I guess I have to embrace a ESTJ future but I hope I don’t show blue flow when listening to an authority figure. Lol. Oh gosh...

Don’t you guys think this adds depth to MBTI? I mean... Fi never gets described as Olympic listeners until now. It’s good to know! Isn’t it? Also, it did sound like gibberish to me at first, but after a bit of reading I assimilated it. I’m down! I just want more more more...
 
#4 ·
Oh oh oh and btw When he tested memory SPs actually had the best memory of anybody and ESxJs often remembered a lot but remembered it wrong (we who know ESxJs knew all about that, secretly, didn’t we?). And I will find out more...
 
#6 ·
I think he should ditch the predetermined type systems and build new one from the bottom-up, because they add unscientific bias.
There's a lot of controversy with the cognitive functions and for good reason, he's making a mistake using them like this imo. The Grant stack is not true to Jung and has no scientific validity. At least if he's to use the MBTI types he must do so with dichotomies, not CFs.
 
#7 ·
He talks about that just a bit in that last video, but I’d love to hear more of your thoughts, Red Panda. To me it looks like he has brain mapped the dominant cognitive functions, and it sounds like some aux shows up occasionally in brain scans, but looking at his maps could you see a solution that fits how you see it? He does talk about certain people who he shows doing unusual things based on them adapting, (I’m thinking of an example of a INTJ who had learned to consistently use some Ti I think I remember). and it sounds like SJs have the highest variation due to their careers or whatever thing they are expert in cutting pathways in their brains. What do you think? And please do— I’d love to brainstorm on it.
 
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#9 ·
Jung did say that he thought the 2nd function of a person would be different in every way from the first. There are interesting personality traits in ENFPs that highlight Ne and Fi conflicting...a big one if the way we date. There are quite a lot of discussions that we’ve had about how we handle these conflicts and what it turns out to look like.
Nardi likes Jung for sure. But what he has is objective data about what people type themselves as and what their brains are doing and on one of the things I read he basically said people’s dominant functions are so obvious that basically there is a lot less variation from our dom than you’d think.
I never liked Jung’s observations and descriptions about Fi. I think he had the hardest time understanding it of any of the functions. I think there is a big variation in the action for others level of people with Fi and there is also an attitude that ENFPs have that I have seen written about that says, “If each person follows their conscience, it all works out.” Well it is very different from Fe. Very different on a brain scan too. Fi is strongly individualistic, Fe melds with those they care about. I love hearing about what he sees the brain dooing in dominant Fi users. Do you know the idea of “flow state”? Fi dominants hold flow state while listenin* to others and can hold it for long periods of time. He said he sees it sometimes but briefer for Fi aux. he said one ESFP male hit Fi flow state only when listening to females.
So basically they took people, MBTI typed them, then watched what their brains did. Supposedly us ENFPs brains are a ton alike. SJs because of their routines develop where they have expertise the most.

Anyway, your ideas are interesting. Fi in ENFPs often looks in action like Fe, but is not. The source of the feelings is from Fi and I often need alone time to process feelings. I always say “If an ENFP gets quiet, something emotional is going on.” . In an INFP Ne shows up to give you information and imagination. I’m unsure about adaptability and extroversion, it’s more about information gathering. I have to work at accepting and adapting because Ne-Fi creates strong ideals. I do some Mindfulness for that and should try to do more. Actually Nardi studies the effect too, said Ns have a rough t8me staying out of their heads.

I don’t know, it’s something to develop, these ideas. You might be headed for some breakthroughs. Thank you for the discussion.
 
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#10 ·
He said that and explained that it must be a perceiving function paired with a judging one - he made no mention at all that the E/I must be different, in fact at a different point he clearly says the conscious is dominated by ONE attitude, the unconscious by the other. Which results in a stack of NE+FE, for example. So, without a good definition on what E/I + functions is, any conclusions you draw may be flawed if you try to use them.

I'm not aware of those conflicts you've discussed, could u give some quick summarised examples?

Yea I've seen Nardi's presentation about his research years ago, it was definitely interesting. The problem here with Fi and Fe is that we are working backwards - by taking as fact that NFPs use one and NFJs the other so it's not a safe conclusion to draw.
FJs meld with the other person not because they adapt to them, but because in certain ways they feel they're an extension of themselves, which behaviorally will lead to control issues and making sure the person needs them. This doesn't come from malice, it comes from the need to make sure their circumstances change as little as possible in the future, to protect their own selves from change. It's a combination of F (which of course will love and show compassion) and actual introversion that wants to protect oneself.
I was raised by STJs and tho they didn't have the particularities of the F types, the controlling issues were definitely there when I tried to behave in ways they didn't want me. For example, my mother threatened to tell my father that I have a boyfriend unless I told her everything about him, when I was 14. These are normal behaviors for SJs when they feel they lose control, when the object tries to differentiate from them. I have similarly observed FJs trying to control by making sure the other person always needs them i.e. will claim they can't do X thing without their help and make sure to comment on the person's failures and that next time they'll help them, etc. < It may seem I'm talking in absolute terms here but I'm not, though people who are *strongly* J will typically behave like this.

FPs understand the limits between themselves and others better, because as Jung states, they have a good relationship with the object and don't try to "ascend" on it. FPs will adapt to other people at their core - they will be influenced and make their traits part of their identity while leaving the person to be their own because they have no need to *meld* with the other person, since they changed themselves to fit them instead.

Needing time alone is not something that necessarily goes against E/I, in fact it may even support E because it means you are introspecting and reflecting on your actions, behaviors, feelings, which can be part of this adaptation attitude. Information gathering is a part of extraverted perception - wanting to find more possibilities and adapting your perceptions accordingly. Working for adapting is not contrary to this, it's a KEY component. Jungian introverts don't work to adapt because they don't WANT to, it's not their imperative to adapt, their imperative is to PREVENT this from happening. Obviously no one is 100% either, so IRL you'll always find them eventually adapting in certain ways but certainly to a lesser extent and enthusiasm than the extraverts.
 
#13 ·
I watched the Nardi Neuroscience presentation and his conclusion was basically "I saw this area of the ENFJs brain light up, it must mean they're using their Fe!" Even though is the first to actually test personality theory and the brain activity, it seems like he lacks the background knowledge that you would expect a neuroscientist to have.
 
#15 ·
Yes, that is what he is doing-- but which has never been done before and it gives MBTI a scientific basis that it didn't have before due to consistence of documenting the correlation. But the thing is... he is a neuroscientist so the areas of the brain that are mapped have already been mapped by different people and I do think hearing about what is going on with flow state in MBTI adds a lot to my understanding of the types. It adds to what I observe as well.

For instance, that the areas of the brain light up that have to do with listening and individuality show up when a Fi dom listens to people--- but this flow state is not really seen, or only seen briefly in other types, even Fi aux. Jung didn't ever say that Fi doms were experts at listening beyond other types and, well, they ARE. So there is still a TON to learn from this. Whatever this has started needs to continue. But yes, what you're saying needed to happen first. They had to map the consistency of it. That's how you make a true science out of something-- documenting observation and then going further.
 
#18 ·
Yes! And I'm also kind of like..... can I talk to some NTs about this? Some with some science background?
 
#20 · (Edited)
#22 ·


This starts a bit slow and gets more and more interesting, imo.
 
#23 ·
I've shied away from neurological theories of temperament primarily because I read a book written on the topic by Helen Fisher that I found to be extremely reductionist and trite. What offended me about it personally is that she put forth this theory that F men and NF men in particular all suffered from low testosterone and concomitant low social status. Felt more like her personal views of who we are rather than anything based in empiricism. My T levels were fine the last I checked.

What I'm curious about are the epigenetic effects that influence neurological development, and how they ultimately influence temperament. I personally don't believe that temperament is plastic, but there are some who claim that temperament can change, especially in early life.
 
#24 ·
Hmm, an unfortunate book, it sounds. Supposedly in Neuroscience Ne-doms lack.... was it dopamine receptors? and therefore need "More more more" to feel satisfied. I think it was dopamine, not serotonin.... and you can't check for that, exactly, however Neuroscientists have ways that I don't understand. I haven't asked enough questions and it is currently beyond my training. It sounds right enough in theory to me.

But Nardi's stuff is about building a science by documenting consistent observations. MBTI has been rejected by the scientific world--- including mainstream psychology-- but I don't think they can now with his research. I think this gives us the data we need to verify MBTI, and justify us all being here saying MBTI type is a thing! At least Jung functions are a thing! I get meaning out of is when he says something like Fi-dom flow state occurs when they are listening. So that is beyond Jung's descriptions and it does seem verified with my own findings with my own INFPs and ISFPs in my life and makes me appreciate their talents even more.
There is also a TED Talks about how type plays out with learning Math. I got quite a lot out of it.

 
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#25 ·
@Llyralen I listen to the Personality Hacker podcast and read some of Nardi's materials, and it was interesting, especially, as you say, that there does seem to be some physiological basis for type. What he said in the podcast confirmed what I have known about ENFPs for a long time, that they are probably the most adaptable type of all. And the info about SJ specialization was fascinating as well, and very much in line with what I've seen in life. It's amazing how many times I've envied SJs and SPs for being able to spend so much of their life's energies perfecting one skill or one facet of their lives. I simply don't have that in me. I get bored or distracted far too easily, which is why I'll never be able to crochet a rug or become a scholar of early Norman history.

But, it's all very intriguing. Thanks for posting this.
 
#26 ·
Oh yay! Thank you for looking at the info! Now I feel partially pacified. lol. I don't know if that was your sole intent? lol. Somebody has to try to pacify me on this, huh? lol
Here's a question for an Ni-dom: Basically it says you guys get into flow as soon as there is a new concept, and yeah... I would think that you guys would just want to go from new concept to new concept the same way I do with Ne Dom... and it almost looks like with this math teacher (above) that it seemed like Ni did want to just keep going with math, new concept after new concept. In real life it SEEMS like I see you guys going very deeply into one thing that gives you concept after concept or maybe I'm wrong? Do you think you can explain how that is for you guys? And maybe you are looking for your own interest to go so deeply into? Not Norman history but something else? What do you experience?
 
#29 ·
I think this tread is very interesting and the idea of finding neurophysiological correlates of MTBI function is fantastic, but let me tell you that there is a kind of big challenge when interpreting data at this level.

Look, let's take a disease where cognition and mental processing is severely impaired: schizophrenia. If you look to functional imaging of patients they are mostly normal, and we have a pretty good idea of were to look -which neuronal circuits are affected and damaged-, just that damage is "lost" into the whole picture.Below there is a good review about imaging studies and as you can see the "findings" are unrelated to the circuits known as damaged, specifically the mesocortical pathway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesocortical_pathway)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812015/

In other words, we don't see the actual "damage" but the collateral effects in -unrelated- areas that are really sensitive....

However I agree that Nardi's research is very interesting, and the EGG + conectome methodology is the proper one. There is also other groups working around, combining EGG with another technique (fNIRS) that is very powerful to study circuits in vivo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25721430
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30356708
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28450977
 
#30 ·
#31 ·
Look at this one @ilovegoodcheese. I just happened on it after looking at your links. Wouldn’t you want a completely different set-up if you added Fe and Fi to the mix and were able to screen for people’s type. Hmm, well not necessarily if you are trying to teach all random healthy participants to learn to do both Fe and Fi and see which one promotes more social behavior... but looking at it from a Jung perspective feeling Fi would make you withdraw more but with Fe I would think it would promote more social interactions. I don’t know, I admit I only read the abstract and I’m a rookie about neuroscience. What do you think, though? Applying Jungian functions to studies like this one?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27568587/?i=2&from=/22503509/related
 
#32 · (Edited)
Look at this one
@ilovegoodcheese
. I just happened on it after looking at your links. Wouldn’t you want a completely different set-up if you added Fe and Fi to the mix and were able to screen for people’s type. Hmm, well not necessarily if you are trying to teach all random healthy participants to learn to do both Fe and Fi and see which one promotes more social behavior... but looking at it from a Jung perspective feeling Fi would make you withdraw more but with Fe I would think it would promote more social interactions. I don’t know, I admit I only read the abstract and I’m a rookie about neuroscience. What do you think, though? Applying Jungian functions to studies like this one?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27568587/?i=2&from=/22503509/related
Remember the algorithm game video you played a while ago? You must now have slight hint on how you become accustomed to certain mode, feeling more confident thus secure that that most of the time the mode will give you the best result you craved for.

It's because your neurons and axons are interconnected through multiple other neuron through synapses to make paths. Once it pick certain path then reiterates, the more the specific paths being used, the stronger the link between certain neurons, creating associated sets. Effectively trained it.

The paths certainly can be visualized the similar way you can see the algorithm being visualized in the video.

Infact all cutting edge AI being developed mimicking how our brain works, aptly named neural networks. And it can be visualized.

Your brain creating the fastest and most efficient path (following your own parameters):


Resulting in you, you are (one of) the trained bird:





Sent sans PC
 
#33 ·
@contradictionary I do remember that algorithm game very well. I liked that thread, thank you. It was interesting to pick out my own process. I remember the overall pattern I picked and why, actually. Okay, so the pathfinding and flappy bird is really cool too, and I don't know much about AI. So what constitutes a AI "neuron"? A certain unit of programing probably?

Something funny.... when my son was 5 years old and his dad and I wanted to watch a scary movie and send them to bed he said, "Why can't we see it? Why would you watch something bad?" and I said, "Because your brain is just developing and the pathways that your brain is making now are really strong ones and so it's important that we don't create strong pathways that have to do with things that are scary." And my son.... being the awesome brain that he is was like "Oh! That makes sense!" And to me that's the real reason. I never have to lie to my kids and we've talked about our brains and how they work and why or why not mom and dad think something is appropriate for their whole lives that way. It works awesome!

Anyway, so... I'm never on the other parts of the forum talking about stuff like AI because I most like talking to people I know fairly well, so here's a question in case you've thought about this and I don't know much. What do you think about most jobs being taken by AI? What do you predict?
 
#44 · (Edited)
@contradictionary ." And my son.... being the awesome brain that he is was like "Oh! That makes sense!" And to me that's the real reason. I never have to lie to my kids and we've talked about our brains and how they work and why or why not mom and dad think something is appropriate for their whole lives that way. It works awesome!
May i apply to be your son? :chuckle:

Anyway, so... I'm never on the other parts of the forum talking about stuff like AI because I most like talking to people I know fairly well, so here's a question in case you've thought about this and I don't know much. What do you think about most jobs being taken by AI? What do you predict?
Sorry i missed this one. I no longer delve in IT and computer world so i don't have enough credentials to explain to you despite i keep my interests in following tech progress.

What i can understand is AI is made by human programmer. Assume that human is a he, it means his algorithm, his way of thinking, his world view, his personality, his function stacks (lel), his moral codes, his 'testosterone', are being transformed and embedded into the codes. In a simplisistic way, the result, the AI behavior, will reflect or even mimic the programmer as the person.

Now, dilemma. As human we live in a society, we have our independence but it ends on the edge of the other person's sovereignty. We are being 'trained' by the society to follow certain rules of conduct, etc, etc. How about AI? Who train it beside the inventors?

AI lives in isolation. It is sollipsistic in nature.

That's the limit of my knowledge. I leave it to you to figure out how AI may create problems in the future.

Sent sans PC
 
#39 ·
@ilovegoodcheese. I just lost a big ‘old well-thought-out reply that I worked on for quite a while. Gah! I’m so ticked. Lol. I will have to do a shorter version.
So, yeah...I see so many applications that make it seem important for MBTI and healthy brains to be studied. The first example I wanted to bring out is little-understood mood drugs like Paxil that also have a personality-changing effect. I have a family member who was on it. They were more extroverted, more engaged in things but was also unbalanced and lost the ability to see the consequences of actions. My point is, we are already dabbling where we don’t understand. I believe Dario’s research talked about extroverts having more of a chemical that suppresses negative feelings. So I could wonder about those 2 things.

I did see something, somewhere with colored illustrations talking about how (shh...) S and F were more primitive from what I recall it was associated with Nardi? I was a bit miffed, but then I think, well some group has to populate the world with N’s, hence the role of NFs. Lol. F can also create art founded in meaning which I don’t think we humans consider primitive— but maybe art and human meaning and human population in a setting of peace and plenty when we invent robots to act for us and become huge brains 300,000 years from now will seem more like human narcissism? We will have to see what functions appear then.

I know Nardi studied MBTI in older individuals, but I’m not sure about children. Since little ones have less experiences, I would think they would be excellent to study the development of MBTI and show dominant function. I listened to a seminar today on MBTI and relationships. The speaker said her friend types her babies in the womb and the speaker asked the mothers to think about their experience. Well my kids personalities were there pretty much as soon as I could feel them each moving and I have fraternal twins. I always knew from their personalities who was where doing what and ultrasounds confirmed that to me. I think it would be awesome to study and document the development of healthy MBTI over lifespans. I know it’s still not really established about MBTI being real, but it seems like most of us who look into the functions can’t help but then observe these in ourselves and others.

I do see how manipulative and maybe even engineered, eventually, things might get with a better understanding of the functions and that could be terrifying and definitely should bring in a fountain of ethics questions but as I say...it seems like we are already dabbling in manipulation with the drugs we’ve got. I do think we need a bunch of different temperaments for us to work as a society now.

There was more in the old post! Gah! I do get that we want to study disease. Do we just expect that much variation in type? Years ago I heard a story about Einstein’s brain traveling to a scientist in Tupperware on ice and that we learned that aglial cells and topography were important from Einstein’s physical brain. I came away with the idea that if Einstein had not played the violin, he might not have come up with many of his ideas about physics— that he had an extra fold in his brain in the visual-special area right next to music? Do you expect so much variation in brains, really, that this might be a lot of the reason MBTI isn’t studied? Is just because people expect a lot more variation than just 8 specific functions? Nardi says there is only like 3% chance or something that a non-ENFP would exhibit the patterns he has documented in ENFPs (we are the most homogenous type he says, though). By the way, was that story about Einstein’s brain true, do you know? Nardi does these workshops, I hope it helps fund him. I do remember in grad school that what you ended up experimenting had less to do with passionate interest and more to do with who your professor was and the ability to fund.

Alright, that kind of re-created it. I really appreciate getting to talk to someone in the field, cheese. =)
 
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#47 ·
@ilovegoodcheese I recently came across one of the best documentaries I've watched called Tawai: A voice from the forest, which addresses exactly this problem about modern economy. Today's economy and society is based on a left brain way of thinking, meaning that every new finding is made relevant only to support the existing established world view, one that supports only one kind of truth. They say that wise people only get more questions when they find an answer, but in today's economy, every answer goes on to further rigidify the status quo. Iain McGilchrist sees the left brain as a far more limited way of thinking than the right brain, since future possibilities get thrown out the window. Now what do we get when a whole society is based on a left brain way of thinking, and not only that, becomes even more extreme in that regard?

That's not the only thing that bothers me, it's also the kind of selfish and ignorant society that this kind of thinking creates. What kind of world will this lead to? There are countless alternatives that could substitute the current economic model that could lead the world t a better place in all aspects, but the machine keeps on rolling, and it's not going to stop until it encounters a fatal error. Now is there some way that would make it possible to change this trajectory without total collapse of the economy? And don't get me started about the market, totally unsustainable and potentially catastrophic.
 
#48 ·
@ilovegoodcheese I recently came across one of the best documentaries I've watched called Tawai: A voice from the forest, which addresses exactly this problem about modern economy. Today's economy and society is based on a left brain way of thinking, meaning that every new finding is made relevant only to support the existing established world view, one that supports only one kind of truth.
the Alt-truth maybe ? ;)

They say that wise people only get more questions when they find an answer, but in today's economy, every answer goes on to further rigidify the status quo.

I agree, Is that the answer of the fear, maybe?. I think we are living -at global scale- the consequences of the overexploid of the economic, social and ecological niche. One does not have to be very smart to realize that debt and credit deregulation that happened in the 90s was pushing the economy into an spiral without exit. And all world copied the system looking for short term rewards. The consequences hit the environment, not being able to move out of a sick energy dependency, and into the society, mobilizing hate speech to capitalise that fear as anger votes,

Iain McGilchrist sees the left brain as a far more limited way of thinking than the right brain, since future possibilities get thrown out the window. Now what do we get when a whole society is based on a left brain way of thinking, and not only that, becomes even more extreme in that regard?

That's not the only thing that bothers me, it's also the kind of selfish and ignorant society that this kind of thinking creates. What kind of world will this lead to? There are countless alternatives that could substitute the current economic model that could lead the world t a better place in all aspects, but the machine keeps on rolling, and it's not going to stop until it encounters a fatal error. Now is there some way that would make it possible to change this trajectory without total collapse of the economy? And don't get me started about the market, totally unsustainable and potentially catastrophic.
Everyone with a brain sees that this is not sustainable, the system is each time generating more differences and the social "friction" and the violence and repression necessary to keep masses down is each time more bigger, even with all the disinformation there. The issues that the message of fear is very powerful. The way that alternatives are locked is via people's anger, fear and hate. Remove that, or simply turn that anger towards the people that makes huge gains instead the weaker ones, and we'll have a solution.

And talking about fear and decisions, i'm not sure where fear is located into MTBI. I read something about as a product of a pessimistic match between the recognition of incomplete patterns (Ni?) and the self values that are at stake (Si?). This triggers a selfish "survival" viewpoint (Fi?) together with compensatory nihilistic and short term consequences (Se?). Is that? I'm not sure if I am attributing the functions correctly, please discuss and correct it if necessary.

At neurobiological level and simplifying, the focus for pattern recognition is called "saliency" and this happens at medium prefrontal cortext (mPFC) but the integration is at the anterior cigulate cortex (ACC), that takes information from several places: insula (this provides the self reference, it is increased by fear), basolaral amygdala (BLA, this gathers the emotional state, mainly the unpleasant experiences that are stored as anger memories at hippocampal level) and medial talamus (MT, this a fine tuning "awarness" system, known to be extremely sensible to stress), Traumatic experiences however selectively modify these circuits.

Here are a few articles

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5390702/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2899886/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5671506/

The "anti-fear" (thrust) behaviour is in the mesocortical (VTA->mPFC) and mesolimbic circuits (VTA->NAc). These circuits are very well known to regulate motivation (or de-motivation) and pleasure seeking.

Is tempting to assign circuits to functions, isn't ? ;)
 
#54 · (Edited)
We need to create an Ne Think tank (others welcome, though. Lol) and actually work on all of this.... also work on people’s fear.
 
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#55 · (Edited)
We need to create an Ne Think tank and actually work on all of this.... also work on people’s fear.
A Ne think tank sounds like an amazing idea. Education drives fear away. Once people understand that there is a way for them to prosper without working their ass off for nothing, 90% of the work will be done. Can't wait for you to get one of your Ne research marathons directed towards Permaculture, if you're looking for any resources just ask.
 
#59 ·
All you, I will support you with my thoughts and my vision of a better world too. I think you have a vision on how you want the thread to go, the agenda of what could be discussed. You should carry through with all of your ideas. NT forum link and all of it. :)
 
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#61 ·
Is @elvis2010 around? He would contribute so much to this thread....
 
#64 ·
If one put weighting on the function stacks, it is very much intuitively making sense.

Let's say, just for illustration purpose, an ENFP preference: 45% Ne, 30% Fi, 15% Te, 8% Si, 2% the rest of shadows. Percentage will varied between individual and maturity level.

With the same weighting ISTJ preference: 45%Si, 30% Te, 15% Fi, 8% Ne, 2% the rest of shadows.

By probability anyone can see the possibility of intersections of 30% Fi in ENFP with 15% Fi in ISTJ, the same principle with Te, Ne and Si, even in the shadows.

Hey, it's very basic math. Thank you.

Sent sans PC
 
#65 ·
@elvis2010 and @ilovegoodcheese. Introductions! Both of you are neuroscientists.
Nardi has been studying with the MBTI and brain at midlife. Elvis, he does say on one of the videos I saw that the dominant function is pretty obvious right off the bat— but also that he sees different brains sometimes do kooky things (of course, right?.). He said ENFP brains were the most homogeneous and Si brains the most diverse due to whatever their chosen professions/hobbies. BUT it just makes intuitive sense to me that if he started typing people ostentatiously then it would undermine his observational study since MBTI is a self-report (which is also the reason why it needs Nardi’s work to give it credibility).

There’s so much on this thread I hope you see and talk about @elvis2010. But I know it’s extra work, I’m just glad you’re here to see it. @ilovegoodcheese has brought up a lot of good information and questions. Glad to have experts on board..

If you don’t have much time, then try from 3:45 for about 7 minutes. He says that in midlife because the functions you need are so developed you start putting energy into developing your third and forth function and he gives the example that a INFJ brain starts to look like a ISTP brain and make decisions that sound ISTP. Mine would look more like a ESTJ and I do see older ENFPs running more programs later in life...and for me I ran some programs in my 30s, I’m now more interested in getting back into music and writing and maybe art.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVs8nv2TUk
 
#70 ·
I watched the part you say and it was kinda what I anticipated, no proof that the person in his example was actually anything other than "ISTP" before. He was just typed as INFJ based on his love of writing/playing music and just answering the questions he was given, right? So it's a bit of a leap and confirmation bias to say that people "develop" their opposite functions as they age.

Calling it development/growth is a biased perspective. An SJ would see it as development if an NP ceased to be NP, and vice versa. Society always pushes Ns to conform and lose their N because it's mostly structured mostly around SJ thinking, and it's gonna happen if they allow themselves to accept it. Certainty and security wins over questioning, anticipating and looking for the bigger picture. So yea, I do think it's possible that people change their type as they age but I wouldn't necessarily call it development/growth. It's losing the energy/will to keep looking for more/embracing change, pushing against the idea that you need to settle (intellectually/physically, etc), not that your functions are so developed you wanna "grow" the others.
 
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