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Discussion Starter #1
Wanted to post this in the ENTP section but realized there is no point :) So I come here to seek your wisdom. What is worrying me (my research question) - ENTPs are losers in the current society in terms of financial and career success and this makes me sad and scared for the future. I need to find a way to function as an ENTP in today's world and make money and be successful (my ideas are used, respected, etc.). The NTP part is not fitted so this concerns you also!!!

1. Was looking for ENTP IRL success rate - very disappointing - we rank second-last in terms of income.

2. Kept going cause I didn't like the results and as always ended up in an INTP discussion, bounced from there and here are two interesting reads (intps couldn't find these sources but needed them - Ne :)
USA regarding MBTI and race (read poverty) and EU regarding MBTI and management.

WARNING: these are not politically correct, etc. etc. Truth and knowledge are more important than political correctness (for any lurking mods)

If anybody fancies these, share your thoughts if you've ever thought on how to leverage your functions properly..

Here is the EU original source, they have more stuff, I am starting now.
 

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Well, as an INFP, I read your post and was about to go on about how making money is for the birds and that the general money-making society is more or less BS, but then I decided to first look into the links you provided. I laughed when I saw that INFPs are dead last when it comes to making money (and getting married... awesome).

While I personally seem to be aligned with what that site says, it does not mean that just because I am an INFP or you are an ENTP that you cannot make money or will have a torturous time if you try. That should be obvious, but I would not let a thing like type statistics worry you. If you are worried about making a living, let the worry stem from a legitimate concern, such as almost anything other than the constraints of your MBTI type.

Now I may go into what I wanted to say initially. Making money - while a necessity in this world - is certainly not the end that is most important (this is my opinion, but I truly believe that this is the truth and that people who believe otherwise are blinded). I used to freak out about what I wanted to do with my life, going in and out of college majors hoping to find something that would provide me a relatively substantial living, all to no avail; all I found was true unhappiness and a greater loss of direction. Sometime somewhat recently I realized that I could not give much of a hell about making money, and I have felt most like myself and the most free and fresh as I've felt since I was a child. As far as ENTPs (and INFPs) being "losers" in terms of financial and career success... might I say how beautiful a thing that is. The current society is based on greed and lots of total absurdity, so the more a "loser" it deems a person, the better a human being he or she must be. In fact, I get turned off by those who make lots of money. I literally lose respect for them.

Certainly, if money IS that important to you, then go out and make it. If you're worried about being able to make it, set out and try to get your hands on some of it, instead of worrying whether or not you can or will. How you do this is up to you; explore different paths, maybe take some classes. If you do decide that money is rather important, it would be best to try to get it by doing something you at least somewhat enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
1. Everything you've been fed by society is a big fat lie. Typical NTP thinking but I had it long before discovering MBTI.

2. Society tells us that money is immoral and bad - BS! Money is a concept. It is a means to an end. It actually unnerves me to have to explain this to people who just say "money doesn't make you happy, family/happiness/whatever is more important". That is true. Lacking money though makes you unhappy.

Our SJ society wants us to believe that we need to sacrifice happiness. LIE.

ENTJs and ESTJs didn't end up as the top money earners because they sacrificed their happiness. On the contrary - they lucked out because our society was already receptive of what they are (in terms of functions). What makes them rich and successful is what at the same time makes them happy according to their functions!

Now, just because SJs say this is the right way, doesn't mean there isn't a better way! We only need to device a way that will enable us to make full use of our functions which will makes us happy, that will also make us rich and productive members of our society so we can help people! That goes beyond the shitty career advice (architect, blah blah blah) found online.

I've already "invented" a way to harness my ENTP love for debate (before MBTI I called it "The Game" and complained why nobody wants to play with me :). It allows me not only to debate to my heart's content but also to help people and be liked (Fe)!

But that is just one small part of the whole puzzle of how to make your place in the world without sacrificing who you are. I want to create a whole functioning practical system that will allow my type (an others) to just STOP WHINING ON THE FORUMS about why they feel stressed and unhappy in an SJ world. The SJs devised it - they feel happy in it. We can do the same.

PS After this post I kind of see why people make fun of ENTPs for being hair-brained nerds :) FYI I am in my early 30s with an MBA and everything I said sounds logical and perfectly possible to me. Though I can see how weird and non-conventional it sounds to you :(
 

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ESTPs have the highest educational level average among all P types... I find that very interesting, or rather hard to believe.

Edit: sorry for double post
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Check out the data on managers and type in the EU source. I think that might be a more reliable source.


Constructing a complex heretical theory and devising a practical tool to impact reality makes me burn and drool a little. Also debating with an intelligent person :)

Reading through a brilliant scientific research but realizing the authors completely disregard the practical application makes me uncomfortable with irrational anger.

I realize it's different for you. But behind every great invention there is a grand theoretical concept. I know your brains don't stop anywayz, why don't you then feed them with the little heresy I developed above? :) If that thing is to ever find its way into the world, it needs some heretical thinking that throws all we perceive as reality into the garbage bin.

You know you'll think about it. Imagine how fun it'll be and how impossible it sounds. Goes against everything everybody thinks is true :) Does that make you drool a little or I am completely off?
 

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To be honest, it seems like Ne is the most difficult type to tame and the most difficult type to give a narrow focus of direction to. When it's a primary function, it can have a lot of practical drawbacks.

N likes to build pictures and form ideas, and Ne sees the world as open-ended. It makes it very hard for the Ne to find concrete basis to build and move forward on. Contrast with the _NTJ, who is the exact opposite and likes to form and build from sturdy foundations. (Like Istbkleta said, the _NTJs lucked out.)

NeTi gives the ENTP a lot of ability to form ideas and learn things, but it poses a lot of challenges for picking a path and sticking with it. ENTPs I know don't have a specific career path, but rather a large sampling of jobs taken from different areas of interest. They're hard to nail down for that type of commitment, or even that kind of caring. They question everything they're told is "important" and want to pursue their big picture-building exercise.

Se is similar, but IMO easier to work with because Ne is so focused on picture-building and exploring possibilities that they feel restricted and confined and even less worthy when they get nailed into too small of a box. Se is just unhappy, but if they can get experience elsewhere they're relatively happy. Ne is far, far deeper and more likely to be upset with itself for being prematurely closed-off.

ENTPs are not narrow-field experts by nature. Being an expert is well rewarded in our society. Most positions for advancement come from being good at a sub-field.
 

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Wanted to post this in the ENTP section but realized there is no point :) So I come here to seek your wisdom. What is worrying me (my research question) - ENTPs are losers in the current society in terms of financial and career success and this makes me sad and scared for the future. I need to find a way to function as an ENTP in today's world and make money and be successful (my ideas are used, respected, etc.). The NTP part is not fitted so this concerns you also!!!

1. Was looking for ENTP IRL success rate - very disappointing - we rank second-last in terms of income.

2. Kept going cause I didn't like the results and as always ended up in an INTP discussion, bounced from there and here are two interesting reads (intps couldn't find these sources but needed them - Ne :)
USA regarding MBTI and race (read poverty) and EU regarding MBTI and management.

WARNING: these are not politically correct, etc. etc. Truth and knowledge are more important than political correctness (for any lurking mods)

If anybody fancies these, share your thoughts if you've ever thought on how to leverage your functions properly..

Here is the EU original source, they have more stuff, I am starting now.
I'm wondering about starting an affirmative action campaign for income equality among the different personality types. :crazy:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@B-Con,

Can you support what you are saying through reliable statistical data and empirical evidence :) Or this is just the thing that everybody's saying. Ouch. It is :)

It is not working. It is not grounded in data or healthy logic. Thus I refuse to believe in it and prefer to reconstruct it.

Just to point out the most obvious inconsistency in what you are repeating: narrow specialization ... an ENTJ manager is not a narrow specialist. I am disappointed than an INTP chose to repeat what I've heard a 1000 times, than try to find the logical faults.

When did you guys buy into the idea that function is the same as design?
Keeping to a schedule is not what makes Js successful. Getting things done is. The schedule is just their way of achieving that goal. Our functions just can't use a schedule the same way yet we somehow decide to give in and not look for what works for us.

Are you a 100% certain there is no other way to achieve that goal? :) Really?

Another example - delayed gratification. We suck at it, right? This is how they do it, right? They work hard now and get their gratification, right? But we can't.

Has it ever occurred to you delayed gratification is a BIG FAT LIE? Haven't you noticed how some types in fact derive pleasure from delaying gratification and that is what keeps them going cause they get their emotional reward right now?! Oh, but they are not "normal". An ESFJ working their ass off to be a martyr is "not normal". Cause we don't do it and ... HELLO?! We are different! It's THEIR design to function. It does NOT work for us! We need to invent designs that will allow us to function properly and achieve results.

Maybe you want to go back in time and kick Einstein's ass for spacing out instead of working hard? Or Explain to Alexander the Great that a knot should be untied because this is the proper way. So they stop being childish and buckle up and start doing things the right way.

It's f*cking obvious to me. I don't get it how you can even say there is only one way to do things and it's the J or the F or the S way but not the NTP way. Dear God ...

Whatever.

Keep whining and living in your parents' basements. Guess it's better than trying to think outside the box.
 

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@B-Con,

Can you support what you are saying through reliable statistical data and empirical evidence :) Or this is just the thing that everybody's saying. Ouch. It is :)

It is not working. It is not grounded in data or healthy logic. Thus I refuse to believe in it and prefer to reconstruct it.

Just to point out the most obvious inconsistency in what you are repeating: narrow specialization ... an ENTJ manager is not a narrow specialist. I am disappointed than an INTP chose to repeat what I've heard a 1000 times, than try to find the logical faults.

When did you guys buy into the idea that function is the same as design?
Keeping to a schedule is not what makes Js successful. Getting things done is. The schedule is just their way of achieving that goal. Our functions just can't use a schedule the same way yet we somehow decide to give in and not look for what works for us.

Are you a 100% certain there is no other way to achieve that goal? :) Really?

Another example - delayed gratification. We suck at it, right? This is how they do it, right? They work hard now and get their gratification, right? But we can't.

Has it ever occurred to you delayed gratification is a BIG FAT LIE? Haven't you noticed how some types in fact derive pleasure from delaying gratification and that is what keeps them going cause they get their emotional reward right now?! Oh, but they are not "normal". An ESFJ working their ass off to be a martyr is "not normal". Cause we don't do it and ... HELLO?! We are different! It's THEIR design to function. It does NOT work for us! We need to invent designs that will allow us to function properly and achieve results.

Maybe you want to go back in time and kick Einstein's ass for spacing out instead of working hard? Or Explain to Alexander the Great that a knot should be untied because this is the proper way. So they stop being childish and buckle up and start doing things the right way.

It's f*cking obvious to me. I don't get it how you can even say there is only one way to do things and it's the J or the F or the S way but not the NTP way. Dear God ...

Whatever.

Keep whining and living in your parents' basements. Guess it's better than trying to think outside the box.
Can you repeat that please?
 

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Keep whining and living in your parents' basements. Guess it's better than trying to think outside the box.
What I don't even...
 
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@B-Con,

Can you support what you are saying through reliable statistical data and empirical evidence :) Or this is just the thing that everybody's saying. Ouch. It is :)
First, this is MBTI-related information. Second, the statistics -- even if they were necessary, which they weren't -- backed up my comments. Don't try to attack my stereotypical MBTI values to coerce me to your point of view.

Istbkleta said:
Just to point out the most obvious inconsistency in what you are repeating: narrow specialization ... an ENTJ manager is not a narrow specialist. I am disappointed than an INTP chose to repeat what I've heard a 1000 times, than try to find the logical faults.
Unlikely. First, being a manager is more than just pencil pushing. If you are a successful manager (and the successful manager is the person we care about in this context) you probably have expertise in managing certain group sizes and working in a certain industry. You may not be the type of specialist who can only talk about his work with 5 other people in the world, but you are -- compared to -- relatively specialized. You couldn't just up and walk into another job and expect your knowledge and skills to be put to direct and specific use.

Even if your example held, note that I said "most", not "all". A counter-example isn't even the correct way to attack that statement.

Istbkleta said:
When did you guys buy into the idea that function is the same as design?
Keeping to a schedule is not what makes Js successful. Getting things done is. The schedule is just their way of achieving that goal. Our functions just can't use a schedule the same way yet we somehow decide to give in and not look for what works for us.
Are you still talking to me? I never said anything about scheduling.

Istbkleta said:
Are you a 100% certain there is no other way to achieve that goal? :) Really?
What?

Istbkleta said:
Another example - delayed gratification. We suck at it, right? This is how they do it, right? They work hard now and get their gratification, right? But we can't.
No. I never said that. I know of no link between ENTPs and delayed gratification. I believe you have confused ENTPs for ESFPs.

Istbkleta said:
Has it ever occurred to you delayed gratification is a BIG FAT LIE? Haven't you noticed how some types in fact derive pleasure from delaying gratification and that is what keeps them going cause they get their emotional reward right now?! Oh, but they are not "normal". An ESFJ working their ass off to be a martyr is "not normal". Cause we don't do it and ... HELLO?! We are different! It's THEIR design to function. It does NOT work for us! We need to invent designs that will allow us to function properly and achieve results.
This has nothing to do with what I said and hardly makes any sense. You are implying that there is no such thing as discipline and that delayed gratification is only present in people who get instantaneous satisfaction from it. While some people probably do, that statement has little basis in the world. Bottom line is that some delayed gratification is beneficial in most areas of life and some people are better at it than others. Some people like doing things in the moment and that's fine, some people like saving things for "just the right moment", that's also fine. Some of those tendencies may produce better practical results in different walks of life.

[edit]
The point you made in your first post is dead on. Some people are simply lucky to be born with a personality type that tends to be more commonly financially rewarded. It's about luck, not personal value.
[/edit]

But that still has nothing to do with what I said.

Istbkleta said:
Maybe you want to go back in time and kick Einstein's ass for spacing out instead of working hard? Or Explain to Alexander the Great that a knot should be untied because this is the proper way. So they stop being childish and buckle up and start doing things the right way.
This continues your digression... I never said there was no value in breadth of knowledge or pondering concepts, just that it isn't what our capitalistic economy usually rewards well on average. This isn't opinion, it's flat out obvious fact.

In fact, I never put down ENTPs on the whole, I just pointed out that Ne (which isn't unique to ENTPs) is "a difficult function to tame with a lot of practical drawbacks". It has advantages too, but there is a give-take. And some of those "takes" are that it's harder to leverage it into a high-paying job. Not saying it can't be done, but it's obviously not the norm.

Ironically, you're talking to another Ne.

Also, ironically, you cited an INTP as an example.

Istbkleta said:
It's f*cking obvious to me. I don't get it how you can even say there is only one way to do things and it's the J or the F or the S way but not the NTP way. Dear God ...
Never said nor implied that. You clearly hallucinated something completely different from what I said and then attacked that instead.

You're free to do what you want. But you can't do whatever you want and be in the top 1% of income. If you want to do that, there are a lot things you have to do. And those tend to be things that Ne isn't strong at. If you don't care about the money, then congratulations on having other asperations in life, that's great. But it has nothing to do with the discussion.

Istbkleta said:
Keep whining and living in your parents' basements. Guess it's better than trying to think outside the box.
Something I said in my above post clearly rubbed you the wrong way. I don't know what it is, but I'm only interested in the MBTI and the links in the OP. Discussing your perception of attacks on ENTPs isn't going to go anywhere.
 

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1. Was looking for ENTP IRL success rate - very disappointing - we rank second-last in terms of income.
The results are between 65 to 85k average salaries? Not much of a difference between most of the ranks. And that's a bit higher than the average salary for most of the countries that I'm aware of, and definitely not representative of even just the Western world. The lowest average salary should be something like 30k for the Western world, or maybe lower.

The other study looked at manager wages. I'm assuming that's what you were talking about with ENTPs being on the low end for manager wages. ENTPs seem like better as entrepreneurs than in the corporate world where they're following rank structure and rules. That's the realm of the STJs, and apparently ENTJs do fairly well too, although they're probably creating their own rules for their STJ middle managers.
 

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The results are between 65 to 85k average salaries? Not much of a difference between most of the ranks. And that's a bit higher than the average salary for most of the countries that I'm aware of, and definitely not representative of even just the Western world. The lowest average salary should be something like 30k for the Western world, or maybe lower.

The other study looked at manager wages. I'm assuming that's what you were talking about with ENTPs being on the low end for manager wages. ENTPs seem like better as entrepreneurs than in the corporate world where they're following rank structure and rules. That's the realm of the STJs, and apparently ENTJs do fairly well too, although they're probably creating their own rules for their STJ middle managers.
My thoughts exactly. The salary stats are odd and appear questionable.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I apologize for sounding argumentative :)

Simply put, I am saying that a lot of the NTP characteristics are viewed, even by us, as counterproductive.

A difference of 20k when the base is 60k is 1/3 - that is pretty impressive.
Even if the salaries are questionable, I doubt many people here will claim they would be more successful as managers than ESTJs and ENTJs. Or more influential and socially accepted than ENFP.

Your immediate response would be that you don't want what ENTJs want. And I agree. We don't want the same thing because it goes against our functions.

Now tell me you don't want to have money and be popular by being yourselves. But you have bought into the idea that is impossible.

I challenged that idea by proving that is the wrong assumption that design is the same as function.

Simple N example, used in the science of Marketing: When you are buying an axe, you do not really need an axe, but a "cut tree". Nevertheless an axe manufacturer will say they are in the "axe business" and be destroyed by a chainsaw manufacturer. That is because they have accepted that design is function. In truth they were in the business of having trees cut.

This is what society is saying and we are accepting for ourselves.
Hence my example of a J planning and achieving. I hoped you would understand and see that planning is simply an axe, not a cut tree.
As NTPs we are not axe manufacturers, but we just need to invent the chainsaw to compete with the Js. The end is different from the means and there are many ways to skin a cat.

@B-Con, I am not trying to antagonize you, but to encourage you to think about this. This is not about winning over you, but about inviting you to participate in the thinking process because of the respect I have for INTPs' mental powers.

Do I make more sense now?

My proposal is simply to:
1. Realize that other types are successful by using "tools" or "approaches" to completing tasks, and those tools fit their functions.
2. After realizing this concentrate on finding "tools" or "approaches" that will complete the same tasks, but will engage our functions.

I have observed this distinction is not done by most people and, in my example above, we are told and even ordered to adopt a tool that goes against our functions (planning and scheduling). When was the last time you did an assignment that way? Who says your way is worse than the J way? The J way has been constantly improved, tested and redesigned for centuries. Maybe if we put some effort and time and mind power we can do the same in a couple of days :)


What are your thoughts?

Please people, I am desperate here for some input and support. I am seriously considering this as my research question for my master's thesis and might risk my whole future on a crazy unorthodox idea that can change the world. Because this engages my functions and makes me "happy".

Happiness is nothing more than certain brain centers being activated and engaging the preferred functions does that. But I am also afraid and does that mean I choose a life of misery and conformity to have food on my table and a roof over my head. I have one life, who am I living it for. What do you think about this last question?
 

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Don't take these statistics at face value.
 

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I apologize for sounding argumentative :)

Simply put, I am saying that a lot of the NTP characteristics are viewed, even by us, as counterproductive.
In short: Yes. There are many that don't fit well into the traditional "find a 9-5 job and make a life-long career of it" that much of our society is built on.

A difference of 20k when the base is 60k is 1/3 - that is pretty impressive.
Even if the salaries are questionable, I doubt many people here will claim they would be more successful as managers than ESTJs and ENTJs. Or more influential and socially accepted than ENFP.
Yes. MBTI teaches this, so within the MBTI context the stats are unnecessary.

Your immediate response would be that you don't want what ENTJs want. And I agree. We don't want the same thing because it goes against our functions.

Now tell me you don't want to have money and be popular by being yourselves.
Again agreed. MBTI types are generally centered around very different goals and desires. In fact, MBTI was originally applied as a means of assessing personalities and matching people against ideal careers.

And who wouldn't? Everyone would like to be a billionaire by pursuing their favorite hobby or passion. A couple (literally, like 2) people get to. The rest of us find a trade-off between what we love to do and what we kind of like to do that actually produces money. Some people get lucky and something they enjoy doing pays well. Some get unlucky and can't get employment doing anything that's more than mildly above flat out annoying.

But you have bought into the idea that is impossible.
Hm, don't assume that I think that. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. Most people don't get very lucky, and I would suggest that most people can't. The jobs there are to fill and the things people love to do, on the whole, don't overlap very much. Some NTPs get good job matches, some don't. My guess is that there are more of the latter than the former. Personally, I think I managed to do well. (But that's a separate topic.)

I challenged that idea by proving that is the wrong assumption that design is the same as function.

Simple N example, used in the science of Marketing: When you are buying an axe, you do not really need an axe, but a "cut tree". Nevertheless an axe manufacturer will say they are in the "axe business" and be destroyed by a chainsaw manufacturer. That is because they have accepted that design is function. In truth they were in the business of having trees cut.
On the whole this is a good thing to realize and companies got smarter to that recently. It sounds like you're advocating the selling of solutions, not products. This sort of mentality has gotten strong in the past decade or two, I think particularly in the technology industry.

This is, I believe, primarily why outsourcing is so popular. Companies, particularly large ones, realized that they didn't need to do everything themselves. They didn't care how their trees were cut, so they decided to stop hiring axemen and buying axes and to just hire a tree-cutting service. The tree-cutting service specialized in tree-cutting and did it better than anyone who didn't specialize.

This is what society is saying and we are accepting for ourselves.
Hence my example of a J planning and achieving. I hoped you would understand and see that planning is simply an axe, not a cut tree.
As NTPs we are not axe manufacturers, but we just need to invent the chainsaw to compete with the Js. The end is different from the means and there are many ways to skin a cat.
Ne is good at thinking outside the box, and Ne with Ti (NTP) is good at designing new systems. So I agree.

My proposal is simply to:
1. Realize that other types are successful by using "tools" or "approaches" to completing tasks, and those tools fit their functions.
2. After realizing this concentrate on finding "tools" or "approaches" that will complete the same tasks, but will engage our functions.

I have observed this distinction is not done by most people and, in my example above, we are told and even ordered to adopt a tool that goes against our functions (planning and scheduling). When was the last time you did an assignment that way? Who says your way is worse than the J way? The J way has been constantly improved, tested and redesigned for centuries. Maybe if we put some effort and time and mind power we can do the same in a couple of days :)
I agree that different jobs suit different types better.

I disagree that we should ignore the functions we're not good at, like planning and scheduling. There are practical benefits to those. There are practical benefits to balance across all the functions. At different times, different functions are more appropriate. Even the best planner in the world needs to be flexible sometimes.

On the P side of things there is a general disinterest in planning, and on the J side there is a general interest in planning. J's tendencies tend to usually be more useful and practical in this area, but anything can be overdone.

Who says what's worse? Context and results do. If a J and a P are given a job and the J's way does the job better, then J's method was superior. If the P says "well, I like my way better so I won't change", they won't do as good of a job. However, the reverse is also true. In some situations a P might do better than a J, in which case Ps approach was better. For example, Js can become upset or even angry when plans need to be redone at the last moment, or fall apart for some reason. Ps are better at taking those things as they come.

It's not like being a J makes a person more important than a P, but if a P's natural approach isn't a good one, then they need to either change or find something else where their natural approach is a good one. No one awards points for doing what feels good regardless of results, least of all employers who write paychecks.

Please people, I am desperate here for some input and support. I am seriously considering this as my research question for my master's thesis and might risk my whole future on a crazy unorthodox idea that can change the world. Because this engages my functions and makes me "happy".

Happiness is nothing more than certain brain centers being activated and engaging the preferred functions does that. But I am also afraid and does that mean I choose a life of misery and conformity to have food on my table and a roof over my head. I have one life, who am I living it for. What do you think about this last question?
Who are you living your life for? That's a good question. If you are a staunch believer in a sovereign god, you are probably living for him, so whatever you want to do is irrelevant because it's about what he wants. (Most religions teach that.) Most people who don't believe in a god live for themselves, in which case you make decisions based on what benefits you the most.

Regardless, it's always a question of trade-off. Some people (like Ted Kaczynski) put their foot down and do only what they want to do, regardless of what the world around is like. While I don't advocate all of the Unabomber's lifestyle, there's nothing wrong with living your preferred way (assume moral guidelines) if you're willing to pay the penalty for it.


Furthermore, on NTPs, I have this to say:

I think that NTP is very useful and that many NTPs are meaningfully employed. However, I believe that many NTPs are unhappily employed. Inventors and inventions are very useful, but most NTPs (particularly ENTPs, as they are the stereotypical inventor persona) simply have the mind of an inventor or innovator but not the personality to actually follow-through and make big changes. That's an MBTI trait, not just personal speculation. So for every 10 NTPs, you have maybe 1 or 2 who are actually trying to do things differently and 8 or 9 who are thinking about how things could be done differently, but not actually doing anything about it. That just isn't our strength. That doesn't mean we can't do it, it just means that on average we don't.

Also, you only need one inventor to pave the way for 1000 trend-followers. Creative solutions will eventually be turned into more structured ones the longer they are used. You only need a (relative) handful of physicists to transform the models of physics. You can employ thousands of people for a century or so using and dissecting those breakthroughs. Most NTPs want to do new and innovative things, but there simply isn't as much demand for that as there is people to do the more typical jobs.

My philosophy on this is simple: Life is "unfair", no one promised us anything else. Some people are born "lucky" in terms of the society around us, some aren't. We aren't owed a uniform level of job satisfaction, or even life satisfaction. So assess the world around you, determine what you have to work with, determine your priorities, figure out what sorts of trade-offs are necessary and useful, experiment with those trade-offs, and then make those trade-offs as best you can.

[edit: Removed a little bit that was off-topic.]

Disclaimer: Not everything I write fits my own moral and philosophical/religious viewpoints. I write under other sets of assumptions all the time.

Feedback is welcome.
 

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I just saw the new X-Men movie and it was funny because all I could think about was this thread at certain points. We NTPs are like the mutants... and you're right, it is up to us to figure out how what works for us and how that fits in with the rest of society. I still haven't figured it out and I'm still suffering a 9-5 to pay bills while I'm in school for web design, but over the past decade of jobs I've been able to learn what things I like and things I don't.

A small company that understands the importance of communication is what I've got so far... and I know I like tech type jobs that allow me to be on the computer so if I get bored I can escape momentarily (and sometimes longer) into the internet (and I can chat with people). However, the only way I figure I'm really going to enjoy going to work every day is if I own the company, or am a co-owner or something. I like being able to work in short bursts, and really dislike the ball and chain that is an 8-hour work day; I can get loads more done in 4 broken up hours (unless it is some sort of manual labor, of course).

I don't think this really helped or answered your question, but I figured I'd toss in my 2¢ :laughing:
 
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