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Discussion Starter #1
How do you define 'independent' that is attractive to you on personal level? Non conformist? Able to fulfill her emotional needs without depending on you too much? Not acting over dramatic when she gets emotional? I am aware that preferences differ, so I ask out of curiosity.
 

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I do find independent women very attractive, and my idea of such women are women who aren't afraid to show their intelligence, to be themselves regardless of what society thinks, strong willed and willing to be my equal. They are women who don't allow gender roles to be forced upon them (if they choose to abide by them, that's their choice). She wouldn't be afraid to give me her opinion and she wouldn't be afraid to pursue her own career and goals.
 

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I like people who know what they want out of life and have goals. I like people to have their own opinions and respect mine. It is also nice that they don't expect me to do everything all the time!
 

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Whenever I hear that word I think of financial independancy, but sometimes I also think of it as "I don't need anyone else, I love only myself, so you can just go take a hike."
 

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Whenever I hear that word I think of financial independancy, but sometimes I also think of it as "I don't need anyone else, I love only myself, so you can just go take a hike."
I think there's a big difference between that and how most independent women are.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Independent and emotionally cut off are two different things. Being independent doesn't necessarily mean you don't want love. It can mean that a woman stands on her own two feet and does not need too much validation for her views, but nevertheless she wants your companionship.
 

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Just because I don't need someone to take care of me, doesn't mean I don't want a partner in life. The fact that I take care of my self and am emotionally stable on my own, means that I have a lot to offer in relationships.

In fact, I place a high priority on romantic relationships. But I do believe both people need to be healthy and strong independently. I won't enter a relationship out of "need" or ever feel like I'm "stuck" financially. I wouldn't think a guy would want me that way. I would think he would like it more if I were to be with him by choice rather than necessity. Because I am independent, it means I don't have to settle in relationships. I don't have to take the first thing that comes along. I can wait until I find the right thing.

Love is what motivates me to do most things in life. I take care of myself so that I am healthier in the relationships in my life. Being successful in my career, family life, and having hobbies makes me a better partner and a better person to be around. I can freely give to another because I make sure to also give to myself. There is balance.
 

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I was pointing at those who set their standards too high leading to neglecting the ones close to them, I wasn't really referring it to taking care of oneself. I envy anyone who's capable of doing so. I personally struggle with taking care of myself (with my underdeveloped J) and struggle with loving myself, so I don't have a problem with independent women at all, in fact, I'd love to have a fully functional independent woman as my "sweetheart," but it simply does not work that way, I just know it, from personal experience that independency and love simply cannot co-exist.
 
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I was pointing at those who set their standards too high leading to neglecting the ones close to them, I wasn't really referring it to taking care of oneself. I envy anyone who's capable of doing so. I personally struggle with taking care of myself (with my underdeveloped J) and struggle with loving myself, so I don't have a problem with independent women at all, in fact, I'd love to have a fully functional independent woman as my "sweetheart," but it simply does not work that way, I just know it, from personal experience that independency and love simply cannot co-exist.
Single parenting and dating brings up another issue. Do you think there are reason she felt she had to continually be with a man?

I have a sister who was a single mom. After her divorce she began searching for unconditional love from that "special man". She went through man after man trying to keep the idea of "the family" in her mind. What she failed to see was that unconditional love was right in front of her, from her daughter and son. Often they were neglected during their mother's search.

The bottom line is that my sister never believed she could make it on her own and raise a family. She threw in the towel. She settled for relationships. Relationships she knew deep in her soul, weren't about love. She also pretended to be "self made" and have a career to acquire men, but it was all a front. Once a man no longer proved what she needed, and once she realized she didn't love him, she'd move on. She refused to take time off from her search and focus on her children who so badly needed her.

Now her kids are grown, resentful, and pretty much estranged from their mother. Her son continues to have relationship problems with women. He often searches for the mother's love he never really had. It's the saddest thing to see. I can still see the little boy crying on the inside.

When a person doesn't believe they can make it on their own, or if a person believes that their partner can't make it on their own without them, that couple is in a co-dependent relationship. The both of them are robbing each other blind. One leans on the other too heavily until they both finally collapse.
 
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Single parenting and dating brings up another issue. Do you think there are reason she felt she had to continually be with a man?
I have no idea. I try not to think about it or my past really. I haven't been in touch with my mother for four years now. Or is it five(?) I can't remember. Nor have I been in touch with my father for six years. Or is it seven(?). So, naturally becaues of this, people think I'm independant, but I'm not.

I have a sister who was a single mom. After her divorce she began searching for unconditional love from that "special man". She went through man after man trying to keep the idea of "the family" in her mind. What she failed to see was that unconditional love was right in front of her, from her daughter and son. Often they were neglected during their mother's search.
Sounds like something I can relate to.

The bottom line is that my sister never believed she could make it on her own and raise a family. She threw in the towel. She settled for relationships. Relationships she knew deep in her soul, weren't about love. She also pretended to be "self made" and have a career to acquire men, but it was all a front. Once a man no longer proved what she needed, and once she realized she didn't love him, she'd move on. She refused to take time off from her search and focus on her children who so badly needed her.
After my grandfather was struck with a heart attack and died my grandmother hanged herself. She left behind her a 1 year old daughter, a 15 year old son, and an 18 year old daughter (that 18 year old daughter was my mother). This is when my mother set out to be co-dependant on my father, of course, that relationship didn't work out. She then set out to be independant (when I was five) and her independency turned out to rape me physically and mentally for ten years.

Now her kids are grown, resentful, and pretty much estranged from their mother. Her son continues to have relationship problems with women. He often searches for the mother's love he never really had. It's the saddest thing to see. I can still see the little boy crying on the inside.
I can relate to that. And I think I kinda don't like your sister (even though I don't know her), it's strange.

When a person doesn't believe they can make it on their own, or if a person believes that their partner can't make it on their own without them, that couple is in a co-dependent relationship. The both of them are robbing each other blind. One leans on the other too heavily until they both finally collapse.
True, I too believe it can go both ways.
 

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Thank you so much for sharing your story Mike. You've been through quit a bit. I admire your honesty.
After my grandfather was struck with a heart attack and died my grandmother hanged herself. She left behind her a 1 year old daughter, a 15 year old son, and an 18 year old daughter (that 18 year old daughter was my mother).
This is very sad. It seems that in your mother's history, there was no model or example showing her that a woman could make it on her own and raise her children. She then ventured through her adult life as a mom "winging it". I don't mean to excuse her. You have a right to your anger. I am very sorry because you deserved much more.

I can relate to that. And I think I kinda don't like your sister (even though I don't know her), it's strange.
No worries, I don't blame you. She is actually estranged from our entire family. My sister was also the eldest of us 4. She always believed she had been given too much responsibility to watch us from an early age. I don't know if this is what affected her own choices when she became a parent.

True, I too believe it can go both ways.
Absolutely.
 

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Oh, I don't mind sharing. In my head it's kind of like a normal childhood. I tend to be too open and honest about things, and it gets me in trouble. On one of my job interviews (Security) I was asked "Have you ever done drugs?" and I just went "Yeah, I tried some pot when I was 18," and then they asked me "So would you go along with taking blood and piss tests?" and I said "Sure, I don't do drugs anymore." Next question was "Are those gang tattoo's?" and I'm like "No, I didn't think there were gangs in a city with less than 70k people in it." My friend, who was in the same room as me, trying to get the same job, went O___O like "Wtf, Mike, don't tell them this shit!" Hah, I naturally didn't get the job because I was honest. I suppose they don't like honest men in the security business.
 

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If left to a subjective interpretation, when I see the word independent, I associate it with dominance, regardless of whether we're talking about males or females, and regardless of the context (romantic relationship, platonic friendship, whatever). Generally speaking, I find dominant women very sexually attractive, but it's probably a bad idea to ever attempt pursuing anything. I enter into relationships with dominant people for one reason; a test of wills. I want to see what the other person is really made of, and who can "break" who, first. Though, this is generally my approach to all my relationships.
 

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If left to a subjective interpretation, when I see the word independent, I associate it with dominance, regardless of whether we're talking about males or females, and regardless of the context (romantic relationship, platonic friendship, whatever). Generally speaking, I find dominant women very sexually attractive, but it's probably a bad idea to ever attempt pursuing anything. I enter into relationships with dominant people for one reason; a test of wills. I want to see what the other person is really made of, and who can "break" who, first. Though, this is generally my approach to all my relationships.
Well thank you for explaining what may have been my last relationship and my ex's problem, or why he may have approached me in the first place.

You know I am your friend BBW and I know you were just being honest. All you did was just inform me of the reality of how some people really are. But now I am completely disgusted at how some insecurities manifest themselves. I am now turned off by any thought of a relationship. I never want to go through something like that again where someone is just trying to "break me" for some crazy reason in their mind. It hurts like hell and it leaves me confused. Especially since I'm not a jealous or insecure person. I love and respect everyone's individual growth, especially my partner's. I don't understand the need to "break" someone. I don't think I ever will.

*Flies out of thread permanently*
 
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Well thank you for explaining what may have been my last relationship and my ex's problem, or why he may have approached me in the first place.

You know I am your friend BBW and I know you were just being honest. All you did was just inform me of the reality of how some people really are. But now I am completely disgusted at how some insecurities manifest themselves. I am now turned off by any thought of a relationship. I never want to go through something like that again where someone is just trying to "break me" for some crazy reason in their mind. It hurts like hell and it leaves me confused. Especially since I'm not a jealous or insecure person. I love and respect everyone's individual growth, especially my partner's. I don't understand the need to "break" someone. I don't think I ever will.

*Flies out of thread permanently*
Well, I know you said you weren't coming back, but I'll reply, just in case you read it. Most people, I'm assuming, aren't quite as messed up as me. Though, this is the result of my therapy; being forced to introspect and being steered towards seeing things in a bit of a different light. My ego is massive, self-inflated, but fragile as all hell. I'll go to vicious lengths to protect it. I'm guessing my Enneagram type is mostly likely wrong, and it really is an unhealthy 8, as the only people, that I've observed, that are anything like me, are 8's, or have a strong 8 influence in their tritype; my father and someone else we discussed recently, immediately come to mind. 6's are reactive, 8's more proactive. Life is a 24/7, 365 war, but I've spun so far down, and become so proactive, I've actually defeated myself, and lost all control.
 
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