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Discussion Starter #1
Article here: Some Men’s Self-Worth Falters When Partner Succeeds | Psych Central News

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the actual report. I'd like to get a look at it.


*Do you think this is accurate?


*Most men surveyed were college-aged. Of the men this affects, how many do you think will "outgrow" this response?


*Are gender roles still as prevalent in society as this study makes them appear to be? If so, what, if anything, can shake their influence?
 

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I think men and women should be allowed to take any role in society. However there are biological tendencies that make women seek more successful men.

From what I've seen, if a women can get a man who is more successful or has higher status, it's out the door for the man.

I've even seen one case where a man was successful for 20-30 years, owned his own house, car, insurance and more, was in a car accident, become handicapped, still was able to take care of his kids and his wife left him.

It's really sad but that's how things work. There may be exceptions like I've read about INFP female and INTP male where the woman earns more and the man is laid back in his hobbies and interests but even in those cases I read the INFP females saying they wish their man would stand up for their opinions more and do more.

At the least, it seems that women like men who will stand up to defend their social status, obtain successes and do more for the couple as an economic unit. Depending on the woman, her preferences may be from alpha male to softy/eccentric genius. But yes, women do expect the man to contribute more for the household.

In today's age of 50% divorce rate, it's out the door you go for the man if he can't do better than the woman.

I am in full favor of women working and being self sufficient but I also know that it's incentive for expecting more from men - more economically, maybe higher social status, more success and perhaps people skills like talking or spending time together.

Just 60 years ago, there was a commercial of a man grabbing his wife, pushing her on a chair and showing her how to use a certain household product. That's how things WERE for about the last 10,000 years of agriculture where men did most of the farming and women did the household and child care work. Now in an industrial/information age, physical strength of a man is no longer an advantage. Before agriculture, there were horticulture societies where women did small scale gardening and foraging and men did hunting - men and women were about equal in horticultural societies. There may be confusion about this topic because this is the first time in over 10,000 years that men and women are about equal again. I think it's fair for women to decide how to live their life working for themselves and managing their own life. We are in a whole different game now.

Men have to be or do more than before. I think it would be wise to delay marriage untill their mid-late 20s or early 30s when men have a chance to have gained in skills, gone up in career, built up savings, paid off a house (however small) - it's at least stability until being able to buy something better. The sooner men recognize the world has changed the better it will be for us. Yes, biologically and due to new economic status of women, men are supposed to do more.
 

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this is very interesting. I guess its kind of hard in a society where men have always been the providers and head of the family.
 

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I believe this to some extent. As soon as I entered college, I thought that my sole purpose of life beyond getting a job was to make myself look attractive and the rest would follow.. boy was I wrong. I think it's just a sign of the times.

I expected the males to be ultra-protective of women.. but they aren't really. They want to be treated as equals and not as something above something. Or maybe it's a societal thing now-a-days and they know that it's not alpha male/submissive female anymore.

I'm supposed to go out into the world and search for someone that fulfills the needs and requirements that I have trouble fulfilling.. such as handling money and multi-tasking.. or that's what I thought anyways.. It turns out that I'm wrong.. and people tend to yearn towards people with similar interests and personalities these days..

I feel really bad.. as a female who has occasionally cheated on assignments..but I was punished for it anyways..

I'm not searching for someone better than me anymore. I have chronic low-self esteem issues but when it comes down to it, I would prefer an equal or a male that has an even worse than me.. (I'm not exactly sure)

I just want someone who has the desire to change their ways consistently and build a better and new self. (learn from your mistakes)
Someone who has accepted themselves weaknesses and all and yet won't do anything about them.. I kinda don't care for.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
At the least, it seems that women like men who will stand up to defend their social status, obtain successes and do more for the couple as an economic unit. Depending on the woman, her preferences may be from alpha male to softy/eccentric genius. But yes, women do expect the man to contribute more for the household.

In today's age of 50% divorce rate, it's out the door you go for the man if he can't do better than the woman.
Is all that really true, though? I don't deny there are women who would break up with men because of their perceived lack of earnings, but are those women really the norm, or is it just thought that they are? To me it seems that many men are putting this expectation upon themselves, thinking that women are (although maybe they are, I can only go by what I have seen myself).

I do agree that women have a tendency toward attraction to "success" but 1. women also have a prefrontal cortex and don't make decisions solely on one evolutionary criteria, 2. what defines "successful males"? (Is being a good father just as "attractive" as making lots of money?) and 3. If a man earns 200K a year and his spouse earns 250K, is he suddenly no longer "successful" in the eyes of women/society/whomever? I'm thinking not.
 

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I wouldn't say it's accurate for everyone, but it's pretty new, men and women being equal in society, so they might feel "emasculated" by more academically/financially successful women in some cases. As a woman, however, I don't judge sucess based on income or schooling in my peers, male or female. If the man is well-adjusted, motivated, intelligent, in good physical condition, and makes enough money for their portion of living expenses, then to me, he's successful.
 

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Has anyone noticed accomplished women dating men that are total losers (no job, no goals, no nothing)? I have, so I don't know if men start to feel insecure. I think some women also want to feel superior by dating someone lower than them.
 

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Is all that really true, though? I don't deny there are women who would break up with men because of their perceived lack of earnings, but are those women really the norm, or is it just thought that they are? To me it seems that many men are putting this expectation upon themselves, thinking that women are (although maybe they are, I can only go by what I have seen myself).

I do agree that women have a tendency toward attraction to "success" but 1. women also have a prefrontal cortex and don't make decisions solely on one evolutionary criteria, 2. what defines "successful males"? (Is being a good father just as "attractive" as making lots of money?) and 3. If a man earns 200K a year and his spouse earns 250K, is he suddenly no longer "successful" in the eyes of women/society/whomever? I'm thinking not.
If you go back to the cave days you can see why resources might be attractive to women. It is true that many women are like this and have an expectation that a male "takes care of her". However, it is clearly not true for all women. I am a female and I am uninterested in what my male partner earns, simply because I am independent financially and the thought of being 'taken care of' financially is abhorrent to me. But I can see why success is attractive - not so much because of the monetary facets, but rather, someone who is successful is usually driven, hard working, confident, etc - and those traits are attractive in my opinion.

Is being a good father as attractive as making a lot of money? Some people would think that being a good father meant making a lot of money.
 

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I could see this being true for me if I wasn't happy with my career. However, I love my work so I don't think that I would lose any self worth if I had a very successful SO. Money is great and everything, but there comes a point where it doesn't make you any more happy. To me, Im driven to do the best job I can for the sake of doing it right. I like solving the problem more than bringing home the bacon. As long as I'm happy in my job, I wouldn't be insecure with a spouses success. I guess I'm admitting I would be if I wasn't. Sigh... It is what it is.

Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing.
-The Fountainhead
 

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I think this really depends. If you are heavily dependant on gender roles, I suppose it'd anchor you a bit. I think you'd also have to consider this situation:

In the event a man is already not secure with his self-worth and his partner begins doing very well, would that not aggravate the already existent insecurity? It's possible his partner doing well may just magnify the already-apparant situation. I don't see why one would be rationally insecure of a well-off partner if you are already secure about your own self-worth.
 

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I think men and women should be allowed to take any role in society. However there are biological tendencies that make women seek more successful men.

From what I've seen, if a women can get a man who is more successful or has higher status, it's out the door for the man.

I've even seen one case where a man was successful for 20-30 years, owned his own house, car, insurance and more, was in a car accident, become handicapped, still was able to take care of his kids and his wife left him.

It's really sad but that's how things work. There may be exceptions like I've read about INFP female and INTP male where the woman earns more and the man is laid back in his hobbies and interests but even in those cases I read the INFP females saying they wish their man would stand up for their opinions more and do more.

At the least, it seems that women like men who will stand up to defend their social status, obtain successes and do more for the couple as an economic unit. Depending on the woman, her preferences may be from alpha male to softy/eccentric genius. But yes, women do expect the man to contribute more for the household.

In today's age of 50% divorce rate, it's out the door you go for the man if he can't do better than the woman.

I am in full favor of women working and being self sufficient but I also know that it's incentive for expecting more from men - more economically, maybe higher social status, more success and perhaps people skills like talking or spending time together.

Just 60 years ago, there was a commercial of a man grabbing his wife, pushing her on a chair and showing her how to use a certain household product. That's how things WERE for about the last 10,000 years of agriculture where men did most of the farming and women did the household and child care work. Now in an industrial/information age, physical strength of a man is no longer an advantage. Before agriculture, there were horticulture societies where women did small scale gardening and foraging and men did hunting - men and women were about equal in horticultural societies. There may be confusion about this topic because this is the first time in over 10,000 years that men and women are about equal again. I think it's fair for women to decide how to live their life working for themselves and managing their own life. We are in a whole different game now.

Men have to be or do more than before. I think it would be wise to delay marriage untill their mid-late 20s or early 30s when men have a chance to have gained in skills, gone up in career, built up savings, paid off a house (however small) - it's at least stability until being able to buy something better. The sooner men recognize the world has changed the better it will be for us. Yes, biologically and due to new economic status of women, men are supposed to do more.
Statistically, it's men who leave wives when they get sick.

https://www.fhcrc.org/en/news/center-news/2009/11/sickness-and-health.html

A married man is six times more likely to separate from or divorce his wife soon after a diagnosis of cancer or multiple sclerosis than a married woman in the same situation, according to a study that examined the role gender played in so-called “partner abandonment.”



You have any statistics to back up your assertions? Because everything I've read:
when things get rough (sickness/financial crisis), it's the man that leaves.
when things get boring (unfulfilled), it's the woman that leaves.


I don't know how much success impacted my dating preferences. I've always gravitated to older men. My husband nearly has a decade on me and had had time to become financially stable by the time we were dating. That said, I've seen plenty of friends with men who earn less and they're happy as is. Seems to me that different women want different things. Much like different men want different things.
 

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From what I've seen in these posts, there is a range of experiences or accounts.

Some women will leave husbands for a better man or if they get sick. Some want equal. Some feel more comfortable with a man earning less.

I guess there's two things occurring in society. First, since women work and can choose to live their life independently, men need to be or achieve more in order to keep women happy (since biologically women have a tendency to choose someone richer than them). Second, there's an equalizing of roles. Men and women can do whatever they want (relative to before). Man can be laid back and do what he wants rather than family, family, family as before. Men don't have to be very protective and don't have the pressure of being the sole earner of income for the family.

I agree that there are two trends. 1) Expecting husbands to be and do more since women can support themselves and no longer depend on men. 2) Men can be laid back and don't have to be "alpha male" due equalization of roles.

However, one of the trends is dominant.
Divorce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The National Center for Health Statistics reports that from 1975 to 1988 in the U.S., in families with children present, wives file for divorce in approximately two-thirds of cases. In 1975, 71.4% of the cases were filed by women, and in 1988, 65% were filed by women.[SUP][31][/SUP]
Why Most Divorces Are Initiated By Women
Women initiate two-thirds of divorces and far more of the separations, according to a nationally representative study by the American Association of Retired People. This study is based on surveys of more than 1,000 divorced men and women, aged 40 to 79.
(published 2012)

About 2/3 of divorces are initiated by the woman.

On the whole, it seems that trend 1 is more common or effective than trend 2. That is women are gaining more advantage than men.

Women can work and live independently. So they don't "need" a man. Either a man has to be more successful than the woman so there is still incentive to stay with the man or the man must have great social skills to keep the woman by having a great home life (higher income for the family as a whole or a better quality of life/home life - depending on the type of woman). Otherwise, she can work by herself and just spend time with friends because she doesn't need a bread earner or a man who doesn't make her happy.

Man needs either to be more driven and capable of earning money than his woman, marry someone slightly less successful or improve social skills to make a good home life. If they are unwilling to do any of this, then they are more likely to become part of the 50% of society that is divorced. Alternatively, men can just change their perspective of divorce, accept that they'll probably be divorced once and maybe married 1 or more times in their life. The concept of "marriage" as a lifelong commitment or "divorce" as failure has to change. Either adapt to the new world, or see marriage and divorce differently according to the new age we live in where divorce is more likely if you can't adapt to the new world of relationships.

@Priva
@monemi
@Sai
 

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From what I've seen in these posts, there is a range of experiences or accounts.

Some women will leave husbands for a better man or if they get sick. Some want equal. Some feel more comfortable with a man earning less.

I guess there's two things occurring in society. First, since women work and can choose to live their life independently, men need to be or achieve more in order to keep women happy (since biologically women have a tendency to choose someone richer than them). Second, there's an equalizing of roles. Men and women can do whatever they want (relative to before). Man can be laid back and do what he wants rather than family, family, family as before. Men don't have to be very protective and don't have the pressure of being the sole earner of income for the family.

I agree that there are two trends. 1) Expecting husbands to be and do more since women can support themselves and no longer depend on men. 2) Men can be laid back and don't have to be "alpha male" due equalization of roles.

However, one of the trends is dominant.
Divorce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Why Most Divorces Are Initiated By Women

(published 2012)

About 2/3 of divorces are initiated by the woman.

On the whole, it seems that trend 1 is more common or effective than trend 2. That is women are gaining more advantage than men.

Women can work and live independently. So they don't "need" a man. Either a man has to be more successful than the woman so there is still incentive to stay with the man or the man must have great social skills to keep the woman by having a great home life (higher income for the family as a whole or a better quality of life/home life - depending on the type of woman). Otherwise, she can work by herself and just spend time with friends because she doesn't need a bread earner or a man who doesn't make her happy.

Man needs either to be more driven and capable of earning money than his woman, marry someone slightly less successful or improve social skills to make a good home life. If they are unwilling to do any of this, then they are more likely to become part of the 50% of society that is divorced. Alternatively, men can just change their perspective of divorce, accept that they'll probably be divorced once and maybe married 1 or more times in their life. The concept of "marriage" as a lifelong commitment or "divorce" as failure has to change. Either adapt to the new world, or see marriage and divorce differently according to the new age we live in where divorce is more likely if you can't adapt to the new world of relationships.

@Priva
@monemi
@Sai
Yeah.. but how many of those divorces were because the man cheated on his wife?
 

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@senlar Divorce rates aren't that high.

The Myth of the High Rate of Divorce | Psych Central

And you point out some women will leave a man if they get sick, but ignore that statistically, it's usually the man that leaves in that situation. Women usually initiate divorce and separations, but they don't spring this on their spouses. Men usually refuse to go to marriage counseling until separation papers have already been filed. That's too late. That ship has sailed. When your spouse wants marriage counseling is the time to go to marriage counseling. Not when they've had it and decide to leave.

At one time, if a woman was unhappy in a marriage, she was stuck in an unhappy marriage and had to do as told. I'd say men need to learn compromise. I've seen so many mother's on parenting boards bitching about husbands that work the same number of hours as them but the distribution of household labour isn't nearly equal. They'll bitch the guy out and he'll withdraw or go hide somewhere (a la World of Warcraft widows.). She'll get fed up and suggest they go to counseling. He refuses. This vicious cycle carries on for months or years. Until she's online talking about the divorce papers he won't sign and that he wants to go to marriage counseling now. He wants to go to marriage counseling when she's built up resentment and outright seething hatred and disrespect. This is what I see. And the crazy part is the men always seem shocked. Like they didn't see this coming. How do you not notice that the person living with you is growing to hate you?

I consider myself extremely lucky my husband isn't like them.
 

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@monemi

I agree with you about the statistics of men vs. women leaving when SO is sick. You have statistics. I have anecdote of someone else.

I'm just saying that *in general* women have gotten more advantages than men in the new society where both men and women work and can live by themselves. (I'm talking about changes, not status - men still have higher status, but women have gotten more changes in their favor).

I agree about working equal hours and then not sharing household duties (it's the same old gender roles and work & stress and it causes anger understandably in a new society when both people are working the same hours).

I am totally in favor of both genders working and choosing to manage their own lives and live as they want.

There's a trade off however. Nowadays with 2/3 of divorce initiated by the woman, women need men less than men need women.

It's not completely fair like you said about not sharing household duties.

This is a whole new game now. 1960s feminism fighting against "my father used to beat my mother every week" type of situation is not completely relevant today. You can't be on the megaphone blaring about injustices against women when in our new society men are less advantaged (even unnecessary!) than before and women are gaining more advantages (they're the ones to drop kick the man out of their door nowadays more often than not - in 2/3 of cases).

In my relationships, in 1/3 of the cases, it was the girl who left me and screwed me over. There's freedom and choice in society now. It changes the situation so much.

You can't declare the new modern society as male = caveman, woman = victim and always innocent.
 

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@monemi

I agree with you about the statistics of men vs. women leaving when SO is sick. You have statistics. I have anecdote of someone else.

I'm just saying that *in general* women have gotten more advantages than men in the new society where both men and women work and can live by themselves. (I'm talking about changes, not status - men still have higher status, but women have gotten more changes in their favor).

I agree about working equal hours and then not sharing household duties (it's the same old gender roles and work & stress and it causes anger understandably in a new society when both people are working the same hours).

I am totally in favor of both genders working and choosing to manage their own lives and live as they want.

There's a trade off however. Nowadays with 2/3 of divorce initiated by the woman, women need men less than men need women.

It's not completely fair like you said about not sharing household duties.

This is a whole new game now. 1960s feminism fighting against "my father used to beat my mother every week" type of situation is not completely relevant today. You can't be on the megaphone blaring about injustices against women when in our new society men are less advantaged (even unnecessary!) than before and women are gaining more advantages (they're the ones to drop kick the man out of their door nowadays more often than not - in 2/3 of cases).

In my relationships, in 1/3 of the cases, it was the girl who left me and screwed me over. There's freedom and choice in society now. It changes the situation so much.

You can't declare the new modern society as male = caveman, woman = victim and always innocent.
Oh I wouldn't suggest men are cavemen or women are victims. Bitching and nagging is not a healthy response to unfair labour distribution. There are much better ways to handle that. However, I wouldn't say that overall women have more advantages over men today. I would agree that women don't 'need' men today. But then, men don't 'need' women either. Those women that don't adapt reasonable strategies for dealing with inequitable division of labour are going to find themselves feeling resentment. Those men that don't adapt to modern relationships are going to find themselves divorced. Or they could both do something crazy like discuss these things before getting married.
 

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Obvious results.

Humans, in general, feel worse when someone else is successful. This is common sense, human behavior 101.

We are naturally competitive and jealous. We want to do well. We want to be successful. We won't admit that we desire others to do poorly or struggle, but we would prefer it if we were part of the "inner circle," so to speak.

The fact that the man in a relationship feels slightly emasculated when his partner is more successful, is not a new theory.

All humans struggle with these feelings in some sort of way.
 
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