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Recently realized that I've been in an pseudo Ti-Ni loop for the past several years and would explain how I've conflated the two concepts a bit and thought I was an INTJ.

***Begins a mini-analysis

-Ni are very much like confident hunches when Ti is stuck with no leads to go on during problem solving. I describe this as an unconscious/spontaneous categorization of concepts to which the degree of certainty is only felt by its manifested clarity (hence Jungian irrational). e.g. a spontaneous visualization of soft v.s. hard edges along a space of 'reason' separated my conceptions extraverted thinking v.s. feeling while mulling over Jung's works.

-Ti is a system of internalized logic (Jungian subjective) to which external data are literally reduced to variables/systems/models that I've built up over the years. I see this as a conscious/directed linking of concepts that I can very much articulate (Jungian rational). e.g. When trees bloom in the spring, the phenomenon was reduced to a set of variables controlled by duration of day, sunlight intensity/tilt of earth, temperature, and the behavior of the variables would follow somthing like hysteresis from signal processing.

So how does Ti-Ni not clash with each other? Generally, Ti as a reductive process is generally asking "what is this really doing?". When in a unhealthy Ti-Ni loop, Ti actually shuts up as its no longer gaining new information. Ni takes over and starts giving you hunches as to what to do in life or how to solve X problem in the forms of impressions. In fact, one's faculty of speech is impaired as you only can 'heed' to the hunches without external feed-back. The two however are never used in simul as Ni tends only to appear when Ti is in trouble and can't find an Se solution. e.g. was talking about the nature of 'small talk' with a friend and the concept of 'digging' came to mind while under pressure. That is, small talk is like navigating over a large planetary surface in order to find the right spot to dig for buried treasure. Eventually you'll reach a 'core of knowledge' that is common amongst all of us at unity.

On getting out of an unhealthy Ti-Ni loop: Engaging in Se was surprisingly easy as exercise/gym time was energizing to the point where Ti-Se could be used in parallel while biking/reading. Reading (especially stuff on philosphy and classics) in turn fed the Ti with new abstractions to work with. Writing is also a pseudo-form of Se as it induces Ti to challenge its own logic via articulation/concision/precision of language in visual form. Foruming/debate engages all three Ti-Se-Ni as it combines Ti-Se articulation with Ni impressions.

On healthy use of Ti-Ni: In spurts, its about tuning Se out to which Ni is most likely to trip/differentiate. i.e. go to a quite place devoid of distractions (internet, tv, phone, music, people) and work. Also, the Ti-Si tendency is to get hands on with solutions. e.g. troubleshooting code. Forcing oneself to get stuff right the first time or working out a solution on paper before implementation in a 'stream of consciousness' fashion will suffice.
 

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go type yourself in a different system other than mbti. Then come back to MBTI and you'll have it figured out.
 

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Recently realized that I've been in an pseudo Ti-Ni loop for the past several years and would explain how I've conflated the two concepts a bit and thought I was an INTJ.

***Begins a mini-analysis

-Ni are very much like confident hunches when Ti is stuck with no leads to go on during problem solving. I describe this as an unconscious/spontaneous categorization of concepts to which the degree of certainty is only felt by its manifested clarity (hence Jungian irrational). e.g. a spontaneous visualization of soft v.s. hard edges along a space of 'reason' separated my conceptions extraverted thinking v.s. feeling while mulling over Jung's works.

-Ti is a system of internalized logic (Jungian subjective) to which external data are literally reduced to variables/systems/models that I've built up over the years. I see this as a conscious/directed linking of concepts that I can very much articulate (Jungian rational). e.g. When trees bloom in the spring, the phenomenon was reduced to a set of variables controlled by duration of day, sunlight intensity/tilt of earth, temperature, and the behavior of the variables would follow somthing like hysteresis from signal processing.

So how does Ti-Ni not clash with each other? Generally, Ti as a reductive process is generally asking "what is this really doing?". When in a unhealthy Ti-Ni loop, Ti actually shuts up as its no longer gaining new information. Ni takes over and starts giving you hunches as to what to do in life or how to solve X problem in the forms of impressions. In fact, one's faculty of speech is impaired as you only can 'heed' to the hunches without external feed-back. The two however are never used in simul as Ni tends only to appear when Ti is in trouble and can't find an Se solution. e.g. was talking about the nature of 'small talk' with a friend and the concept of 'digging' came to mind while under pressure. That is, small talk is like navigating over a large planetary surface in order to find the right spot to dig for buried treasure. Eventually you'll reach a 'core of knowledge' that is common amongst all of us at unity.

On getting out of an unhealthy Ti-Ni loop: Engaging in Se was surprisingly easy as exercise/gym time was energizing to the point where Ti-Se could be used in parallel while biking/reading. Reading (especially stuff on philosphy and classics) in turn fed the Ti with new abstractions to work with. Writing is also a pseudo-form of Se as it induces Ti to challenge its own logic via articulation/concision/precision of language in visual form. Foruming/debate engages all three Ti-Se-Ni as it combines Ti-Se articulation with Ni impressions.

On healthy use of Ti-Ni: In spurts, its about tuning Se out to which Ni is most likely to trip/differentiate. i.e. go to a quite place devoid of distractions (internet, tv, phone, music, people) and work. Also, the Ti-Si tendency is to get hands on with solutions. e.g. troubleshooting code. Forcing oneself to get stuff right the first time or working out a solution on paper before implementation in a 'stream of consciousness' fashion will suffice.
Whatever function you develop first, it becomes differentiated (able to stand on it’s own without the assistance of another function-attitude). There is never a guarantee that the auxiliary functions will become differentiated, although they should develop enough to reach a conscious state. Jung doesn’t say there has to be a sequential order of which auxiliary develops first. It can be the Se or the Ni or if you’re pretty balanced in extraversion, both can become conscious and develop at the same time. But no matter how developed the auxiliary becomes it can never gain the strength needed to dictate what the dominant function does:
This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first.

But, since it is a vital condition for the conscious adaptation-process that constantly clear and unambiguous aims should be in evidence, the presence of a second function of equivalent power is naturally forbidden' This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance, a fact which is also established empirically. Its secondary importance consists in the fact that, in a given case, it is not valid in its own right, as is the primary function, as an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function.
Coming up with elaborate explanations seem silly when the basis of explanation violate principles of type. Now why do you believe the Ni is doing anything in this instance? It is simply your Ti becoming over bearing because of too much introversion. The personalitypage.com and others have explained this in the past.

What you are saying here is you have yet to develop a dominant function or you are unable to realize the dominant function has run amuck and it was good to get some extraversion back. No loop, just the natural process of type. My Ti does not need my Ni to do what everyone claims to be a loop. My Ti does it alone, not when my Se allows it and certainly not when my Ni chooses. My Ni has completely no say in what everyone describes as a loop. If and when it does develop, the Ni is used in a positive, not a negative manner.
 

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A Ti-Ni loop happens when you neglect the concrete and try to live in your mind. Your Ni allows you to come up with ideas, then your Ti is used to debunk them because they're not based off of anything real. This continues until you start experiencing. Se gives us concrete input to Ti, which results in new skills or knowledge.
 

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A Ti-Ni loop happens when you neglect the concrete and try to live in your mind. Your Ni allows you to come up with ideas, then your Ti is used to debunk them because they're not based off of anything real. This continues until you start experiencing. Se gives us concrete input to Ti, which results in new skills or knowledge.
So exactly what sort of ideas are you trying to come up with in your mind using Ni, that you are not coming up with using Ti? That's a rhetorical question Dusty, let me give you a hint per Jung:
But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Whatever function you develop first, it becomes differentiated (able to stand on it’s own without the assistance of another function-attitude). There is never a guarantee that the auxiliary functions will become differentiated, although they should develop enough to reach a conscious state. Jung doesn’t say there has to be a sequential order of which auxiliary develops first. It can be the Se or the Ni or if you’re pretty balanced in extraversion, both can become conscious and develop at the same time. But no matter how developed the auxiliary becomes it can never gain the strength needed to dictate what the dominant function does:Coming up with elaborate explanations seem silly when the basis of explanation violate principles of type. Now why do you believe the Ni is doing anything in this instance? It is simply your Ti becoming over bearing because of too much introversion. The personalitypage.com and others have explained this in the past.

What you are saying here is you have yet to develop a dominant function or you are unable to realize the dominant function has run amuck and it was good to get some extraversion back. No loop, just the natural process of type. My Ti does not need my Ni to do what everyone claims to be a loop. My Ti does it alone, not when my Se allows it and certainly not when my Ni chooses. My Ni has completely no say in what everyone describes as a loop. If and when it does develop, the Ni is used in a positive, not a negative manner.
Perhaps "loop" was a misnomer as this indeed is the natural progression of developing an auxiliary Ni that works for Ti. The clashing that I've experienced does deal more with Ti stalling in mid-development and unable to pull itself out of the water by its own hair due to its inability to recognize itself as having gotten into a rut. What I'm claiming is that these circumstances allow for a greater propensity for Ni growth due to pro-longed periods of self-reflection and a lack of external feedback. i.e. Ti that yields diminishing returns from a lack of external input will seek new interpretations from within even if it can't make the subjective deduction on its own. Hence, Ni enters the picture via providing spontaneous categorizations of existing concepts in an attempt to placate Ti.

I call this a loop in the sense that Ti can internalize Ni's outputs even if the interpretation is completely wrong as its outside external reality. Its like shooting blindly into the dark. You think you've heard something get hit, but can't make out what exactly you've hit. Sooner or later, you'll be satisfied with just the sound.

go type yourself in a different system other than mbti. Then come back to MBTI and you'll have it figured out.
Have a cookie and be useful ;0
 

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Also, why MBTI ISTP develops Ti-Se-Ni-Fe in that chronological order is normative in the sense that once Ti has differentiated, it will seek a source for external data gathering to feed it which boils down to Se, Ne, Te, Fe. Since what ultimately separates Te-Ti is a temporal matter of immediacy as delineated by a point in time when the linking of concepts no longer yields tangible results, the two are opposed w.r.t. the categories that certain concepts can exclusively fall into. Fe is doubly ruled out for similar temporal reasons as Te and the 'soft deductions' that are associated with F*. I see the distinction between F/T* regardless of the temporal component as a matter of the entropy/certainty of the linkage between concepts. e.g. people relations are generally fuzzy and unpredictable whereas a circuit board has definitive and reducible components. This leaves only Se, Ne to satisfy the Ti which illustrates the fork between ISTP/INTP types.

Now whether a tertiary function's attitude should be opposed to the second is also normative in the sense that the natural saturation of the utility of the aux function induces a similar diminishing return phenomenon as I posited in the previous post. Whether the tertiary function can develop along side the auxiliary or even at the expense of the auxiliary is unnatural but possible; the former supposes that external feedback from Se has small ROI, the latter is a prolonged consequence of the former. i.e. Se does a good job feeding Ti but once the ROI diminishes, some other function will pack greater weight to serve Ti. So why is the tertiary function most likely to be Ni as opposed to Ne, Si, Fi? Ne directly opposes Se as it energizes from two ends of low-to-high levels of concepts (immediate sensory concepts v.s. immediate abstract concepts). Si opposes Se due to a similar temporal argument from before. Fi opposes Ti from the soft-hard perspective.

I don't have a justified argument for inferior Fe outside of Ti's own awareness of itself and therefore its own complement. i.e. By fully recognizing itself, it recognizes what it is absolutely not and thus is able to integrate Fe into a separate compartment of the psyche.
 

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Perhaps "loop" was a misnomer as this indeed is the natural progression of developing an auxiliary Ni that works for Ti. The clashing that I've experienced does deal more with Ti stalling in mid-development and unable to pull itself out of the water by its own hair due to its inability to recognize itself as having gotten into a rut.
Nonnaci, the whole personality type forum world uses that phrase now, so you are not alone. But you are correct the word “loop” implies a continuance as though the dominant function is stuck some how. No function-attitude has the strength to do such a thing IF the dominant function is actually the dominant function. As Jung says,
The products of all the functions can be conscious, but we speak of the consciousness of a function only when not merely its application is at the disposal of the will, but when at the same time its principle is decisive for the orientation of consciousness.
In other words, if the function-attitude one is claiming to be dominant must depend on another one to work then it is considered undifferentiated, because it needs help to actually function correctly. In that case what many refer to as a “dominant-tertiary loop” is merely someone who has yet to develop a conscious function-attitude and none of them will be “differentiate”. Going on with Jung:
This, of course, does not exclude the fact that individuals certainly exist in whom two functions stand upon the same [p. 515] level, whereby both have equal motive power in consciousness. But in such a case, there is also no question of a differentiated type, but merely of relatively undeveloped functions. Uniform consciousness and unconsciousness of functions is therefore a distinguishing mark of a primitive mentality.
Okay, I had written a whole bunch that I am now going to delete, because I just realized something. I am curious for those who strongly believe they have a dominant-tertiary loop, just how old are you? I see one of two things occurring, either those claiming to have this are still young (late teens or early 20’s) or have so heavily influenced by their environments that they have yet to develop a dominant function. Otherwise, I have yet to see anyone take a loop description and tell me which part is the introverted auxiliary function working.
What I'm claiming is that these circumstances allow for a greater propensity for Ni growth due to pro-longed periods of self-reflection and a lack of external feedback. i.e. Ti that yields diminishing returns from a lack of external input will seek new interpretations from within even if it can't make the subjective deduction on its own. Hence, Ni enters the picture via providing spontaneous categorizations of existing concepts in an attempt to placate Ti.
Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. This is what Jung said of himself back in 1925:
As a natural scientist, thinking and sensation were uppermost in me and intuition and feeling were in the unconscious and contaminated by the collective unconscious. You cannot get directly to the inferior function from the superior, it must always be via the auxiliary function. It is as though the unconscious were in such antagonism to the superior function that it allowed no direct attack. The process of working through auxiliary functions goes on somewhat as follows: Suppose you have sensation strongly developed but are not fanatical about it. Then you can admit about every situation a certain aura of possibilities; that is to say, you permit an intuitive element to come in. Sensation as an auxiliary function would allow intuition to exist. But inasmuch as sensation (in the example) is a partisan of the intellect, intuition sides with the feeling, here the inferior function. Therefore the intellect will not agree with intuition, in this case, and will vote for its exclusion. Intellect will not hold together sensation and intuition, rather it will separate them. Such a destructive attempt will be checked by feeling, which backs up intuition..
In other words, for someone who has a differentiated dominant function (i.e., introverted thinking), the introverted auxiliary function (in this case introverted intuition) cannot work without the help of the extraverted auxiliary function (extraverted sensing). Thus it remains undifferentiated in not being able to stand alone. But before the introverted intuition can start down the path of consciousness and ultimately (but not no guarantee), the extraverted auxiliary must become conscious and differentiated. Otherwise, as Jung says, if the extraverted sensing simply remains a workhorse or slave to introverted thinking, the introverted intuition will always side with extraverted feeling in this case.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Nonnaci, the whole personality type forum world uses that phrase now, so you are not alone. But you are correct the word “loop” implies a continuance as though the dominant function is stuck some how. No function-attitude has the strength to do such a thing IF the dominant function is actually the dominant function. As Jung says, In other words, if the function-attitude one is claiming to be dominant must depend on another one to work then it is considered undifferentiated, because it needs help to actually function correctly. In that case what many refer to as a “dominant-tertiary loop” is merely someone who has yet to develop a conscious function-attitude and none of them will be “differentiate”. Going on with Jung:Okay, I had written a whole bunch that I am now going to delete, because I just realized something. I am curious for those who strongly believe they have a dominant-tertiary loop, just how old are you? I see one of two things occurring, either those claiming to have this are still young (late teens or early 20’s) or have so heavily influenced by their environments that they have yet to develop a dominant function. Otherwise, I have yet to see anyone take a loop description and tell me which part is the introverted auxiliary function working. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. This is what Jung said of himself back in 1925:
In other words, for someone who has a differentiated dominant function (i.e., introverted thinking), the introverted auxiliary function (in this case introverted intuition) cannot work without the help of the extraverted auxiliary function (extraverted sensing). Thus it remains undifferentiated in not being able to stand alone. But before the introverted intuition can start down the path of consciousness and ultimately (but not no guarantee), the extraverted auxiliary must become conscious and differentiated. Otherwise, as Jung says, if the extraverted sensing simply remains a workhorse or slave to introverted thinking, the introverted intuition will always side with extraverted feeling in this case.
Approaching mid 20's. I see now. A differentiated Ti Intellect cannot readily justify another introverted attitude unless it had confirmation/feedback from an external attitude. Interestingly enough, the differentiated Ti trusts itself and its own internalized logic as self-consistent a priori and so its own judgments no longer need to pass though the aux extraverted function. The question is, can multiple functions pull each other up without fully differentiating? i.e. the absence of an initial dominant function.
 

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Approaching mid 20's. I see now. A differentiated Ti Intellect cannot readily justify another introverted attitude unless it had confirmation/feedback from an external attitude.
Actually Jung believes the dominant function is not going to trust anything the auxiliary function with the opposite attitude does. That is why Jung emphasizes the consciousness/unconsciousness of the attitudes:
The superior position of the subjective factor in consciousness involves an inferiority of the objective factor. The object is not given that importance which should really belong to it. Just as it plays too great a role in the extraverted attitude, it has too little to say in the introverted. To the extent that the introvert's consciousness is subjectified, thus bestowing undue importance upon the ego, the object is placed in a position which in time becomes quite untenable.
Interestingly enough, the differentiated Ti trusts itself and its own internalized logic as self-consistent a priori and so its own judgments no longer need to pass though the aux extraverted function. The question is, can multiple functions pull each other up without fully differentiating? i.e. the absence of an initial dominant function.
Keep in mind, whatever function-attitude dominates, the auxiliary function works for it, not the other way around. So the judgment of introverted thinking never depended on the auxiliary, except to search out any material that will coincide with the already existing beliefs. But this is the downfall of the introverted functions. We’re subjective hence we generally use our extraverted auxiliaries in defense mode. If we believe a ruling principle has been violated, the introverted thinking type stops adapting, but at some point with no information feeding introverted thinking, it becomes barren. The same goes for introverted feeling, when a ruling value has been compromised, they simply become bullheaded and stop taking in information.

So when we refer to a loop, what we are actually experiencing is an imbalance as described in the growth descriptions located here, it’s not a Ti-Ni loop we enter, we simply stop allowing the Se or Ne to feed us properly:
Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in ISTPs are due to their dominant function of Introverted Thinking overtaking the personality to the point that all of the other functions exist merely to serve the purposes of Introverted Thinking. In such cases, an ISTP may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees.
The example is a bit rudimentary and the bullets given as examples seems to focus on extraverted feeling instead of extraverted sensing, but it gets the point across that it’s an overly dominant function that creates these problems not a dominant-tertiary loop, because if differentiated the dominant function will never allow the auxiliary function with the same attitude (a.k.a tertiary) to have a say.

If the loop does seem prevalent, it may mean you have yet to specify a function. But since you are in your mid 20's, you do have a dominant function most likely, but could be heavily influenced by your environment, thus may be witnessing the collective unconscious determining how you process.
 
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