[Lozan]

I've been thinking about the introverted perceiving lately, and I think I have figure out a decent way of looking at them. I would appreciate any feedback on this, and whether it fits with people's personal experiences.


Both Ni and Si function like huge databases of associations. Ni builds associations for contexts and perspectives, while Si builds associations for sensations and images.

So, when Si "notices" something, it will pull up whatever is associated with it. For example, an Si dominant might notice a scent (say, of strawberries) and have it bring to mind any number of related experiences (gathering strawberries with family in the summer, eating strawberry pancakes, etc).

On the other hand, when Ni "notices" something, it will bring up the state of mind / way of thinking associated with what it notices. For example, an Ni dominant might notice that there is a crack in a pavement, which will make them think about ways of looking at or thinking about things with cracks (how to fix them, what hazards they pose, etc.). On a more complex level, an Ni dominant studying a system would notice various features of the system, which will bring up multiple perspectives... and then find a way to reconcile these perspectives together. If that succeeds, they end up with a comprehensive way of looking at the entire system, which explains the "aha" moments that Ni is famous for (at the moment that Ni manages to merge the perspectives together, it comes up with a new perspective which makes everything clear).

 

[Jubeanation]

This made sense to me. Thank you.

 

[CataclysmSolace]

Wow… Me (ISTJ) and my best friend (INTJ), this lets me see how him and I both act.

 

[Lunarprox]

There's more to it but if you're only contrasting Ni and Si -- then yes, you got the very important bit.

 

[Azure Bass]

Deleted. My post is irrelevant.

 

[Nobleheart]

I think it would be better to use the same stimuli as an example to contrast the Pi functions.

Here is my revision.

Both Ni and Si function like huge databases of associations. Ni builds associations for contexts and perspectives, while Si builds associations for sensations and images.

Si

On the basic Pi level, when Si "notices" something, it will pull up whatever memories are associated with it. For example, an Si dominant might notice a scent (say, of strawberries) and have it bring to mind any number of related experiences (gathering strawberries with family in the summer, eating strawberry pancakes, etc). via how those experiences related to the Si user and what they meant in context.

On a more complex level, an Si dominant would then subconsciously associate their perceptions as memory recognition, which will bring up multiple sensory memories... and then sift through those memories to find the one most applicable to the current situation. At that point, they end up with a model by which to operate in the new context, which explains the consistency that Si is famous for (at the moment that Si chooses the most applicable memory, it comes up with an existing perspective which makes everything clear).

Ni

On the basic Pi level, when Ni "notices" something, it will bring up the state of mind / way of thinking associated with what it notices. For example, an Ni dominant might notice a scent (say, of strawberries) and have it bring to mind any number of related associations (gathering strawberries with family in the summer, eating strawberry pancakes, etc) via how those associations related to the Ni user and what they meant in context.

On a more complex level, an Ni dominant would then subconsciously associate their perceptions as pattern recognition, which will bring up multiple perspectives... and then find a way to reconcile these perspectives together into the one answer that is most like the new condition to create a prediction. If that succeeds, they end up with a comprehensive way of looking at the entire situation, which explains the "aha" moments that Ni is famous for (at the moment that Ni manages to merge the perspectives together, it comes up with a new perspective which makes everything clear).

 

[Owfin]

Urgh, all this "context" for Si! Si looks at things independent of time and place. It's almost a "pure" conception of it, in that way.

Tell me "strawberry" and I envision a strawberry. Not the juicy one from summer, nor the lukewarm one from spring, but a, I suppose I could say, "idealized" strawberry. To me it isn't idealized though because there is nothing to idealize it off from. It is simply a strawberry. Real life strawberries are simply specific instances of it. This is where the association part comes in.

 

[Lozan]

@Owfin:
Your example demonstrates that you associate hearing the word "strawberry" with just a generic strawberry. Is this still the same when you actually experience the strawberry in some way (taste, smell, see, etc)?
@Nobleheart:
What do you mean when you say "on the basic Pi level"?
@Lunarprox:
Could you elaborate on what I missed?

 

[Owfin]

@Owfin:
Your example demonstrates that you associate hearing the word "strawberry" with just a generic strawberry. Is this still the same when you actually experience the strawberry in some way (taste, smell, see, etc)?

Yes. I also may identify it with some idea of, for example, taste, such as "sweet".

 

[Nobleheart]

Nobleheart:
What do you mean when you say "on the basic Pi level"?

The areas in which Ni and Si overlap as Introverted Perception (Pi).

Yes. I also may identify it with some idea of, for example, taste, such as "sweet".

Odd. All of the Si users I know have very vivid sensory associations with their memories. Are you sure you're not an ISTP? Sounds more like you're clarifying the concept of strawberry than making sensory associations.

 

[Owfin]

Odd. All of the Si users I know have very vivid sensory associations with their memories. Are you sure you're not an ISTP? Sounds more like you're clarifying the concept of strawberry than making sensory associations.

How would my association make it any less vivid? Just because I don't associate it with a specific experience, does not mean it is any less vivid or rich. I can have very strong ideas of things indeed. I can conjure up a taste in my mouth by envisioning it hard enough.

 

[Lozan]

The areas in which Ni and Si overlap as Introverted Perception (Pi).

No, I got that. I was asking what your clarification, "on the basic Pi level," meant. What does it even mean for something to happen on an "introverted perception level"?

 

[Nobleheart]

How would my association make it any less vivid? Just because I don't associate it with a specific experience, does not mean it is any less vivid or rich. I can have very strong ideas of things indeed. I can conjure up a taste in my mouth by envisioning it hard enough.

Okay, that jives with how I understand Si to work. Thanks for clarifying. I don't have Si, so I rely on others to explain it to me.

No, I got that. I was asking what your clarification, "on the basic Pi level," meant. What does it even mean for something to happen on an "introverted perception level"?

P is not perception itself, but rather how we process our perceptions based on giving them meaning. Pi does this on a somewhat subconscious level through associations. For Si this means focusing on the tangible. For Ni this means focusing on pattern recognition.

 

[TaylorS]

According to Jung, Si is about personal, subjective impressions of sense data; while Ni is about personal, subjective impressions of a archetypal mental image triggered by the sense data.

 

[Owfin]

According to Jung, Si is about personal, subjective impressions of sense data; while Ni is about personal, subjective impressions of a archetypal mental image triggered by the sense data.

So they form an image of their image of an image, essentially? Weird!

 

[Sparky]

I've been thinking about the introverted perceiving lately, and I think I have figure out a decent way of looking at them. I would appreciate any feedback on this, and whether it fits with people's personal experiences.


Both Ni and Si function like huge databases of associations. Ni builds associations for contexts and perspectives, while Si builds associations for sensations and images.

So, when Si "notices" something, it will pull up whatever is associated with it. For example, an Si dominant might notice a scent (say, of strawberries) and have it bring to mind any number of related experiences (gathering strawberries with family in the summer, eating strawberry pancakes, etc).

On the other hand, when Ni "notices" something, it will bring up the state of mind / way of thinking associated with what it notices. For example, an Ni dominant might notice that there is a crack in a pavement, which will make them think about ways of looking at or thinking about things with cracks (how to fix them, what hazards they pose, etc.). On a more complex level, an Ni dominant studying a system would notice various features of the system, which will bring up multiple perspectives... and then find a way to reconcile these perspectives together. If that succeeds, they end up with a comprehensive way of looking at the entire system, which explains the "aha" moments that Ni is famous for (at the moment that Ni manages to merge the perspectives together, it comes up with a new perspective which makes everything clear).

There is a website posted a long time ago talking about differences between Ni and Si, and also how Se and Ne people look at things.

Edit: found the website: http://www.interstrength.com/content/how_to_tell_intuiting_from_extraverted_sensing

Here is a rough summary of the differences when looking at a forest:

Ni - Looking at a forest, one thinks of the interrelatedness and interdependence of all the organisms in it, and that one day, the city will expand to take over this land.

Si - Looking at a forest, one thinks back to one's childhood playing under the trees with friends, or having a walk with family.

Se - Looking at a forest, one appreciates the subtle shades of the trees, and notices the brilliant colors of flowers.

Ne - Looking at a forest, one thinks of the effects of city's pollution on the wildlife in the area, and how city expansion will impact the area.

In your case of noticing a crack on the pavement, an Ni might think of how the weather's effects produced it, how plants grow out of the cracks to reclaim the land that was once forested, and how the crack needs to be fixed, yet doing so would kill the plants inside it.

In a time sense, there appears to be a past-to-future connection with the Ni scenario. In the Si scenario, it's all about past and present. The Se scenario demonstrates a purely present moment, while the Ne features a present-and-future moment.

 

[Nobleheart]

When I look at the forest, my mind wanders off very quickly into things that have little to do with reality. Which one is that?

When I look at a forest, I see the vibe of it more than anything, then I associate with the vibes other similar vibes, which spawn memories which begin to play out scenes and images that have never happened often unrelated to the forest.

For example, at night, when the clouds have no discernible color from the ambient light of the city below and are silhouetting the leafless trees of late autumn or winter, I am feeling the vibe in the air which is very distinct to me in that moment. I might associate that with any number of memories that reference that vibe, and then build very clear fantasies / daydreams from it, which often end up as creative plans for artwork, stories I may write, but before I am done, I make realizations in the associations that I can't really explain about the people, places, things, in my life and where they are going. I could almost care less about the fate of the forest... but then, I know it's not going anywhere for a long time, so it is much less relevant than the vibe it is exuding, and even less relevant than what is going on in my head.

But then... this is my 'conscious' thought process. I would be unlikely to consciously think about "the interrelatedness and interdependence of all the organisms in it" or "the how the weather's effects produced it, how plants grow out of the cracks to reclaim the land that was once forested, and how the crack needs to be fixed, yet doing so would kill the plants inside it" because that's obvious to me. I'd go from there, not to there.

 

[Sparky]

When I look at the forest, my mind wanders off very quickly into things that have little to do with reality. Which one is that?

When I look at a forest, I see the vibe of it more than anything, then I associate with the vibes other similar vibes, which spawn memories which begin to play out scenes and images that have never happened often unrelated to the forest.

For example, at night, when the clouds have no discernible color from the ambient light of the city below and are silhouetting the leafless trees of late autumn or winter, I am feeling the vibe in the air which is very distinct to me in that moment. I might associate that with any number of memories that reference that vibe, and then build very clear fantasies / daydreams from it, which often end up as creative plans for artwork, stories I may write, but before I am done, I make realizations in the associations that I can't really explain about the people, places, things, in my life and where they are going. I could almost care less about the fate of the forest... but then, I know it's not going anywhere for a long time, so it is much less relevant than the vibe it is exuding, and even less relevant than what is going on in my head.

But then... this is my 'conscious' thought process. I would be unlikely to consciously think about "the interrelatedness and interdependence of all the organisms in it" or "the how the weather's effects produced it, how plants grow out of the cracks to reclaim the land that was once forested, and how the crack needs to be fixed, yet doing so would kill the plants inside it" because that's obvious to me. I'd go from there, not to there.

Could it be F-dominant, like INFP (Fi>Ne>Si>Te)? It sounds like the Ne is affected by an Fi relating to subjective feelings and emotions, which triggers some memories about the past using tertiary Si, while also building fantasies upon it using Ne?

 

[Owfin]

Could it be F-dominant, like INFP (Fi>Ne>Si>Te)? It sounds like the Ne is affected by an Fi relating to subjective feelings and emotions, which triggers some memories about the past using tertiary Si, while also building fantasies upon it using Ne?

No, I think that Nobleheart's post was very N. I found it new and fascinating, at any rate.

 

[Verthani]

Well I think you've got to keep in mind that a person's personality is going to combine all 4 of your functions and you're never going to use your Ni or Si or even Ne or Se in a vacuum from the other functions you have. Whether its your main function and you have Fe or Te as your secondary is going to make a bit of a difference in how it works and gets used versus someone who has Fe or Te as their main and the Ni or Si as their secondary. And then you've go to add on top of that the individuals personal interests and knowledge database.

In INFJ who's into poetry and studies classic literature for a living is gonna to have a much different web of connections than an INTJ who's into comic books and does medical research for a living. Or, an ISTJ who collects toy cars and is an accountant is going to have a very different sensory memory than an ISFJ who loves historical romances and teaches 4th grade. And then all this is going to be different from someone who has Ni or Si as their secondary function instead of their main (not even going to get into the fact that sensors with Se have Ni as their tertiary or least function and Ne users have Si as their 3rd or 4th function.)

I think that sometimes when examples of the functions are given it can trip people up because they're surprised by how different the example is than what they are consciously aware of themselves doing (i.e. nobleheart's post). It's the actual process being described underneath the details of the description that are important and the only thing you can do is basically take a template of the function and lay it over your own cognitive functions and see if it matches up.