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Most misunderstood cognitive functions / function attitudes (and why?)

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#1 · (Edited)
I've had some debates on this forum about oversimplification and misinterpretation of the function attitudes (Ne, Ni, Se, Si, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi), essentially because they say I was relying too heavily on other experts' work and not coming back enough to the original theory.

So, in the spirit of learning for everyone, I thought it would be interesting to give the floor to those who feel like they are very knowledgeable on cognitive functions and talk about which of the 8 cognitive function attitudes are the most misunderstood and why (and also maybe which they feel are the most easily understood).

The reason for this thread is I think it might show some common misconceptions and myths and might help illuminate some people's views about them. I also thought it would be interesting to see people's views on them.
 
#3 ·
I'd have to agree.
All introverted intuition is, is the just taking external information, and grouping it together into one inner conclusion, framework or worldview. That's all it is. It doesn't make you psychic, or mystical. It just makes you particularly adept in recognizing patterns.

A good allegory to this is comparing introverted intuition to a sniper rifle scope. It may result in a failure to see anything to "the sides" of the scope, but the conclusion you are aiming for becomes crystal clear. Which is the opposite of extroverted intuition, in where it's more like a shotgun.

I'd say another misconception is Fi and Fe.
Fi usually means inner morals that are derived from past experiences. Fe usually focuses on external ethics.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm going to again ask for a more directly Jungian explanation from someone on this but as far as I understand it, Si wants reliable information the most, which is one reason why SJs seem so tied to personal experience and expert opinion to some people.

Both sensing function attitudes (Si and Se) use sense perceptions to gather information.

But Si doesn’t just take in information in the moment, like Se. It’s introverted, or inwardly directed. That means it captures the direct sensory experience and ruminates over it later. Which makes sense because what is more ‘reliable’ than a direct sensory experience that you get to spend time thinking about? A captured experience that can be reviewed later is a memory, the basis of this process.

That's why it gets mixed up with memory. Memory is a skill or talent (i.e. possessing a good memory). But Si is more linked to the actual noun, itself (a memory).

I believe @Kynx has given a better explanation of some of the subjectivity definition further up if you can think in Jungian language closer to the theory.
 
#6 ·
Si is going off what you already know or what is already established to make decisions. Jung says it is about taking the subjective impressions of objects and going off of that as opposed to experiencing them like an Se would. Most of the time people hate being given Si as a typing. They will fight it by saying they aren't traditionalists, but, really, defending what you know probably isn't even tradition given the state of the world today. Maintaining whatever is already happening doesn't have to mean being old fashioned.
 
#9 ·
Si is going off what you already know or what is already established to make decisions. Jung says it is about taking the subjective impressions of objects and going off of that as opposed to experiencing them like an Se would.
The first myth comes from the misunderstanding of Jung's use of the term "subjective".
Introverted functions aren't directed from "what you already know" any more than extraverted functions are.

Jung explains this
"The introverted attitude is normally governed by the psychological structure, theoretically determined by heredity, but which to the subject is an ever present subjective factor. This must not be assumed, however, to be simply identical with the subject's ego, an assumption that is certainly implied in the above mentioned designations of Weininger; it is rather the psychological structure of the subject that precedes any development of the ego"
 
#7 ·
Jung's introverted functions derive their content from primordial images which he believed were present in the collective unconscious.

Introverted = subjective = inner world = collective unconscious = genetic memory = passed down through our ancestry

Extraverted = objective = outer world = personally experienced = perceived through the senses, at some point in our lifetime = personal memory

Understanding this is essential to understanding cognitive function theory.
 
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#8 ·
Personally I think dom Fi is often viewed as either these ethereal beings that are all about poetry and flowers and feelings. Or they are looked at as selfish babies that are too preoccupied with themselves to worry about others' feelings. When really I see my friends with dom Fi as people who honestly just relate to the world through there own feelings, which can come off selfish because they say things like, "I think" or "I personally feel." That can often seem like they only care about there viewpoint, but it's quite the contrary! My friends with dom Fi are the sweetest people I know and just want to live through life being 100% themselves. Although I don't think this is the most misunderstood function out there.
 
#17 ·
I'm hoping someone will correct me with a more accurate explanation closer to Jung's original theory as that's the point of the thread, but I'll try and get the discussion going...

Intuition (both Ni and Ne) is focused on ‘what’s behind the curtain’ which, by definition, can't be directly experienced. So, in order to speculate on the things that can’t be directly known, both Ni and Ne become very good at advanced pattern recognition. You get clues on what’s behind the curtain by picking up on the data points you can see and then forming patterns to make speculative leaps.

Like Si, Ni does this in a ‘ruminatory’ fashion because it’s also introverted, or inwardly expressed. Which patterns are available in the ‘inner world’ of a human being? Since all the action is taking place in the brain, the patterns that become the most interesting are the ones that form in the mind. So with Ni, a combination of our beliefs, thoughts and feelings will form our subjective ‘take’ on how the world works.

Ni is focused on the patterns that form these "perspectives", and over time it starts to see the ‘pattern of the patterns’. Meaning, if my mind forms patterns in this way when given certain information and stimuli, then it’s a pretty safe bet others are, too. This is why users of Ni aren’t married to their own perspectives. They can take a meta-perspective and understand the ways in which we’re the same and different on a cerebral level.

I hope that at least gets a conversation started.
 
#19 ·
Still too hard to follow. Let me throw a couple of things out there and see whether they're at all illustrative:

1. I was an academic editor. Lacking a hard science background, I started with social sciences and humanities. I soon found that the humanities drove me crazy: the thought processes, the writing style, everything.

2. I believe my daughter is INTJ. Since her child (now a teenager) was born, my daughter has been disappointed that I don't fit her notions of grandmotherliness. If I were her, I would be intrigued by the uniqueness of the situation.
 
#31 ·
Still too hard to follow. Let me throw a couple of things out there and see whether they're at all illustrative:

1. I was an academic editor. Lacking a hard science background, I started with social sciences and humanities. I soon found that the humanities drove me crazy: the thought processes, the writing style, everything.

2. I believe my daughter is INTJ. Since her child (now a teenager) was born, my daughter has been disappointed that I don't fit her notions of grandmotherliness. If I were her, I would be intrigued by the uniqueness of the situation.
Just to clarify on this for the thread, are you wanting explanations of Ni using these two examples? How do you think they are connected to Ni? I'm just getting clarity because I think people would be more likely to respond if they knew what you meant?
 
#22 ·
Key Introverted Sensing quotes

"What is meant by this finds its best illustration in the reproduction of objects in art. When, for instance, several painters undertake to paint one and the same landscape, with a sincere attempt to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will none the less differ from the rest, not merely by virtue of a more or less developed ability, but chiefly because of a different vision; there will even appear in some of the paintings a decided psychic variation, both in general mood and in treatment of colour and form"

"The subjective factor of sensation is essentially the same as in the other functions already spoken of. It is an unconscious disposition, which alters the sense-perception at its very source, thus depriving it of the character of a purely objective influence."

"A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus."

"It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness — it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious."

"Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus"
 
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#23 ·
Se sees the sensory world as an objective, one size-fits-all entity. You can't change it, you can only experience it and adjust to it. It's like being lost in the middle of the sea. If the waves are huge and dangerous, Se just accepts that and tries its best to ride them. Si however would probably freak out about those waves, they're too intense and dangerous, they should be more like this or that, the way I subjectively want them to fit my likes and needs.

Ne/Ni works pretty much similarly. For Ne the world of ideas is open to everyone, each and everyone of us can speculate, make guesses because anything can happen. For Ni the world of ideas is a personal abstract construct in their mind only that forever shapes into single ideal
 
#29 ·
So an Si perception would be considered 'done' after the sensory experience has been washed and re-washed with fragments of similar sensory experiences and other contents of the unconscious until they are rich with many qualities. The experience of 'eating an ice cream cone' would be refined slightly each time, but there would be an overall unchanging quality about 'eating an ice cream cone' since the preference is not to dramatically change this 'timeless' thing the Si user is building. In this way, the Si user is creating what's reliable for themselves.
 
#30 ·
Pretty much, an exellent real world example is wine tasting.
The field was more or less created to cater to Si types.
However in later years it has been popular for other types to enter the field with their own takes.
An example of a Si type talking about wine tasting.

 
#32 ·
People severely misunderstand Si and STJ types. What they don't understand is that STJ is the most practical analytical combination you can get, though they associate it with NTJ or NTP.
We'll never know how much mistyping there is, or how many people misunderstand sensors just because of the words used to describe them. I do believe that the MBTI community is mostly intuitive despite initiatives making up 30% of the population. Si and Se perceives are just less interested in MBTI, which I really want to point out could be one of the biggest problems. Maybe we're getting front seats to why sensors are needed.
 
#41 ·
Key Ne quotes

"But since intuition, in the extraverted attitude, has a prevailingly objective orientation, it actually comes very near to sensation"

"He actually has sensations, but he is not guided by them per se, merely using them as directing-points for his distant vision.
They are selected by unconscious expectation. Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the intuitive’s unconscious attitude.
In this way it may eventually attain the leading position, appearing to the intuitive’s consciousness indistinguishable from a pure sensation. But actually it is not so."
 
#48 ·
Thank you all for discussing Ni, and also for mentioning the notion of judgment-led vs. perception-led, which I knew little about.

I still find "definitions" uninformative, but you've given me enough clues to help me relate Ni to examples from my own life (which, so far, seems to be the only way I can grasp it).
 
#55 ·
Si compares the concrete present to the past, using the past as the measurement of right or wrong. It's focused on details. Eg. A si user will notice if something's been moved on their desk.

Se users notice their environmental concrete present. Eg. There's a book, mug, laptop and phone on their desk, not noticing that someone's stolen their stapler until they need to use it.
 
#56 ·
Se users notice their environmental concrete present. Eg. There's a book, mug, laptop and phone on their desk, not noticing that someone's stolen their stapler until they need to use it.
So true.

If I had nickel for every time I text one of my SP friends and a month later still no reply. So me, as an anxious SJ, I get lost in a whirlwind ''What did I do wrong?'' thoughts and I literally check and analyze our texts from the last couple of months wondering if I said something that was misinterpreted as bad or snarky only to finally have them reply with ''Yeah, I'm great bruh! Wassup with you??'' And I'm like.....seriously, you just NOW saw my text and decided to reply?

I love my SP brethren, but also really, really fucking hate them sometimes :/ It's all about timing with those bitches.

Hate on us SJs all you want, but at least we feel beholden to reply in a timely manner. Even if it's to tell you we're done with you.
 
#60 ·
I see, so Si is like a sensing which picks and chooses other auxilliary attributes to add to a perception to enhance its fidelity in a way that's meaningful to the user. And these 'enhanced' pereptions are then available for use.

Does the above explanation make any sense to you or is just a huge mess? :D I wouldn't mind to explain better if I can. Btw I'd be really interested in howanybody with dom SI would explain it as it's not a default way of processing information for me - I'm using this feature mostly to check/test validity of my judgements.
I think I've been able to identify it in others in different ways. Spending too much time drinking things in (resistance to moving on to the next thing), treating someone poorly because that person reminded them of someone in their past (I realize this is probably some kind of shadow Si), forming an unshakeble first impression of someone, a guy who collects swiss army knives in every color and tool configuration.

It seems that high use Si can produce some fine and very dinstinctive perceptions (you make it sound kind of like AI), but I don't see how I use it. I've been in arguments about misremembering facts/situations and the Si user is more often than not right in those cases. These arguments usually start because it's those other tacked on attributes that are being discussed that I have long since forgotten about so all I can do is muddle through. Another one is a picture in my mind of what an old bedroom looked like only to find an old photo later on and the furnishings and orientation of the furniture was different that what I recalled. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I think it makes sense, but I'll never really get it : )
 
#61 · (Edited)
I see, so Si is like a sensing which picks and chooses other auxilliary attributes to add to a perception to enhance its fidelity in a way that's meaningful to the user. And these 'enhanced' pereptions are then available for use.
Yep, I think it isn't wrong to express it so. It's like this perception adds some personal/subjective attributes to actual data. Personal/subjective meaning for the user or so. But it doesn't mean original data is messed up and distorted to become something else. "Enriching" would maybe be good word to describe it too. More like receiving a "detached" version of actual object, enriched and mirrored into your inner dimension, in addition to actual data - can't find right words :) There are many different use cases how it plays out for the user for good, if it's concious and user is aware of it. I can easily see why it could be confused with intuition in some cases.

I think I've been able to identify it in others in different ways. Spending too much time drinking things in (resistance to moving on to the next thing), treating someone poorly because that person reminded them of someone in their past (I realize this is probably some kind of shadow Si), forming an unshakeble first impression of someone, a guy who collects swiss army knives in every color and tool configuration.
Yep, I've heard from others something like this can be some unconcious/shadow version of it. I don't see things that way by myself with concious SI - or at least couldn't recall any specific case when I do it. User having it in unconcious form might have no idea about the source of such information if it bothers them. If it worked this way for everyone, including concious SI users, it'd definitely be one of the most useless perks :)

It seems that high use Si can produce some fine and very dinstinctive perceptions (you make it sound kind of like AI), but I don't see how I use it. I've been in arguments about misremembering facts/situations and the Si user is more often than not right in those cases. These arguments usually start because it's those other tacked on attributes that are being discussed that I have long since forgotten about so all I can do is muddle through. Another one is a picture in my mind of what an old bedroom looked like only to find an old photo later on and the furnishings and orientation of the furniture was different that what I recalled. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I think it makes sense, but I'll never really get it : )
In case of concious use it seems to play out for me like seeing forest behind the trees - gives some sense of direction how information changes (I call it seeing information as trendlines), what is different compared to known similar or different situations, find applicable uses for new situations from known experiences and such. Also works like sort of navigation system - a pathway between those perceived "objects" is like a guideline for judging. Rather easy to see from the latter how it gives user higher level of consistency compared to some pretty different people and together with T, an ability to even bulldoze through obstacles, if needed, to reach destination :) Idk maybe dom SI sees more changes in details but I don't see or remember actual details practically at all - it's more like recognizing it's the same or similar impression thus I can assume something about the situation in advance. No comparison of single pieces of information - it's more like comparing whole "snapshots" of data. I guess that's the way how mind optimizes it for faster thinking and decisions.

Discussed something with my partner (NI dom) and it looks like visualization of details, for example seeing what's changed in the room, isn't necessarily SI thing - she said she very clearly knows such details as it's all visual for her, while not for me.

That's fair that you don't get it completely - I'm pretty sure that any person with main perception X is never fully able to understand and imagine how perception Y works :) It can only be understood and imagined up to some point as it's not a mbti or other theoretical pseudo-concept but a real different way of experiencing the world :)

But as I'm describing it through lens of judging dom, can't tell how SI might play out differently in a mind of a SI perception dom.
 
#62 ·
Generally speaking, I’m new to this, but I noticed huge discrepancies in online articles and in jungs book relating to cognitive functions. I think many rewrite the theory in misleading ways. As well as those online questionnaires used to type people….. for that, I think all of them are not fully understood by the public. Even in the book itself, i noticed that Ni has the least elaboration for some reason.
 
#63 ·
Psychological Types is sitting on my bookshelf 3" thick and I really should just dive in and read it. Here's an old perc thread with an exerpt about thinking [INTP] - Jung's Description of the Introverted...

Reading it carefully, I could see why functions could be confused for eachother. Ti 'imagery' for Ni for example. Cognitive functions are usually discussed on blogs or videos as if they're stand-alone blocks that generate their own information instead of an unconscious source. It also looks like Jung described these functions in somewhat pathalogical terms. Makes sense because he was studying pathological people. So for those who subscribe to Jung's theory, being a 'pure' type probably means the person needs help.
 
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