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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #1
Why would so many people on this forum look at me cross-eyed for writing that?

Are there any 4s who actually sit at home crying and wallowing all day to the point of being eternally crippled? Or are you guys out there, asserting your independence, earning money, chasing your dreams, doing your thing?

The 4s I know in real life are accomplished and motivated at least to chase their own dreams, and to be independent and pay their own rent. I'd think as an individualist, most 4s would not want to be controlled by someone else, financially or in any other way.

Am i off base??
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #3
Off-base in the sense that I feel your understanding of type 4 comes through your understanding of type 8. 4s necessarily do not strive to be independent or avoid being controlled but outside forces.
Let's see what the 4s have to say about that. Almaas does refer to 4's primary defense mechanism as CONTROL.
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #5
But control in what sense? I personally do not agree with Almaas on many things for the record.
Yeah I mean.. no text is the word of God. But, if 4s have a basic fear of insignificance, and create a unique identity to compensate, and to ward off against fear of abandonment & envy (because "I'm special" so I can't even be compared to anyone else).. then it would make sense for them to want to carve out their own unique identity in the world, including their house, their car, their job, and their purpose. I understand motivation is associated with id types , 6, 1, whatever - but I find this to be unrelated; the question is, WHY be motivated? And I can see for someone who fears abandonment (basic 4 issue) they wouldn't want to rely on someone else, and someone who wants to carve out a unique place in the world to be 'significant' would potentially work hard to do so - to earn that significance. Entitlement, "I should be admired just because I exist," is a 7 core issue; not implying 7s can't work hard too for various reasons.
 

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Not off base, per se. I am quite motivated to be independent, though financial independence isn't really a priority for me. I think that kind of drive is culturally derived (a lot of us here do live in the US, I think). I do seek independence spiritually and intellectually, which quite frankly is probably the only way I am able to live with myself being so dependent on others to get by.

And you are both right to an extent. I do not consciously seek to control as ephemereality stated, but I do inadvertently make attempts to control people and their reactions to me when I get defensive just as Animal stated. I do have a sense of relationships being commodities, so to speak. And I reject relationships often when I sense there is nothing to gain from them. Even with my family (god bless their souls) who financially support me (I am twenty-seven years old), I do make them feel bad often for having ruined my life before I knew I even had one, for having not been everything they could have and should have been to provide me with the necessary support and knowledge to be my ideal self. Yes, it is really fucked up. I am slowly making headway with these issues though. The fours you describe in the original post sound a lot like self-preservation first and second fours. SP is last on my mind, for better or worse, and I use my inability to function on that level as a crutch to use those who happen to be in my life. I am so sorry, everyone. Please forgive me.
 

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Yeah I mean.. no text is the word of God. But, if 4s have a basic fear of insignificance, and create a unique identity to compensate, and to ward off against fear of abandonment & envy (because "I'm special" so I can't even be compared to anyone else).. then it would make sense for them to want to carve out their own unique identity in the world, including their house, their car, their job, and their purpose. I understand motivation is associated with id types , 6, 1, whatever - but I find this to be unrelated; the question is, WHY be motivated? And I can see for someone who fears abandonment (basic 4 issue) they wouldn't want to rely on someone else, and someone who wants to carve out a unique place in the world to be 'significant' would potentially work hard to do so - to earn that significance. Entitlement, "I should be admired just because I exist," is a 7 core issue; not implying 7s can't work hard too for various reasons.
I am actually not sure I follow your argument here at all, to be honest. I just utterly fail to see the connection between feeling unique and how this would lead to a need for independence. Often I feel that 4s might even seek dependence in the sense that they indeed, as you point out, fear being abandoned. That's the negative connection to 2, holding onto things and people.

Also, independence is in my opinion not the same thing as control.
 

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I'm getting shit done, I always have, or have worked towards it anyway; some things aren't meant to be. How does this connect to my 4? I guess my form of expression has always been in the external world where I can experience it. I think this ended up being because I am an Extravert and because historically I've needed some serious stimuli to be able to convince myself that I did anything of worth, a visceral punch. The concrete, the undeniable was how I would combat those feelings of emptiness.

And I think maybe there's something in your OP, Animal, but I wonder if it only applies to certain people. I'm almost phobically independent. I've always strived towards authenticity, but at some point, some very early point, I've realized that my feelings and behavior have always been effected heavily by my environment. I was pretty much born into unhealthy enforced-dependency situations, and it's this drive to protect my authenticity that has allowed myself to dig myself out of those situations.

Perhaps it would work differently for an introvert, where their self locus is more internal.
 

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With me, I have always had to do things my own way, slightly different than the rest. It is potentially more challenging, but I work at my own speed.

I have my ambitions, my dreams, my goals etc but they are constantly changing and I am moving with them.

I work hard and always aspire to be independent as much as possible. I've only recently felt comfortable with allowing people to aid me when I need it, but even then I am very careful about it.

I am not in the most stable situation financially and otherwise, but I'm working towards it and I feel like in the longrun I'm being smart.

There are periods where I get stagnant, but they never last too long or I go completely batshit.

I can't say that I'm a success-oriented person. I am, however, a growth-oriented person.
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #10
Yeah.. I'm referring more to 'autonomy' and living your dreams than 'success-orientation' - just as a general note. Autonomy, and being self-reliant, is not the same as aiming to be rich as a goal in life. I'd picture it more like 4s pursue some passion that "it would be nice if I got rich doing this but if not I do it FOR THE LOVE and because i will DIE if I don't express myself" haha
 

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Success is a fairly subjective term anyways. And yes, autonomy is a big part of my life. Living my dreams is more of a process, a constant state, not just one event.

Dunno how well I'm answering your questions because I am extremely sleep-deprived right now xD
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #12
Success is a fairly subjective term anyways. And yes, autonomy is a big part of my life. Living my dreams is more of a process, a constant state, not just one event.

Dunno how well I'm answering your questions because I am extremely sleep-deprived right now xD
No, you make perfect sense and i feel the same way. You can't "live your dream" and then you're done. It's definitely a process. Well in my experience anyway.
 

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2s, 3s and 4s are the most motivated to do things resulting from a focus on gaining enough to become admirable. Really, I think the Image Triad pines for the sense of self that the Gut Triad has (234s ask 'how do i become stable, good, disciplined?'). The Head Triad after us makes us inventive, especially to an end of recreating ourselves to be as admirable as possible.

4s are hard-wired, so to speak, to come up with solutions of how to intuitively escape weaknesses preventing them from becoming admirable and good. You will always see 4s dealing with alternatives to situations instead of accepting failure completely, even if subconsciously.

I'm motivated, independent and self-reliant. Honestly, 4s are independent nearly as much as 5s are. However, 4s need to depend on people in order to know what "authentic" is. "Authenticity" is just attempts to take parts of what we like most to produce some impeccable, or sufficiently stable hybrid. Failing to become "authentic" makes us needy and dependent.

My motivation, independence and self-reliance suffers chronically from my eclipsing identification with success and failure. If I stopped judging myself as insufficient just for not being "authentic" enough, I'd have no problems, but it's the 4 vice called envy. Yay, right?
 

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MOTM Jan 2014
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Discussion Starter #14
My motivation, independence and self-reliance suffers chronically from my eclipsing identification with success and failure. If I stopped judging myself as insufficient just for not being "authentic" enough, I'd have no problems, but it's the 4 vice called envy. Yay, right?
What constitutes being 'authentic' enough?
 

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What constitutes being 'authentic' enough?
The short answer is at the bottom in bold.

The technical answer to your question is taking those parts we like of conventional appeal, making that stable hybrid, and never having to redo it ever again. Authenticity, in regard to the 4, isn't realistic. In my view.

What would stop us from using inauthenticity as an excuse to judge ourselves? Hm... Defeat the cause, which is our idealizing popularity as proof of true humanity. We envy because we're jealous of people that symbolize the standards we wish we could meet. We demean convention by saying we're special, and glorify it by wanting "authenticity," which hails from conventional ideas in the first place.

If one couldn't tell by the threads, 4s are infatuated with their own experiences, and are obsessed with cultural doctrines - with how it pains them, and with how 'above it' they are. It's egoistic, passive aggression, really. I'm a 4 and it's a part of me. I wanna shed light on it to they that mistake it for being mystic, like many 4s themselves. It's that 'uniqueness' disease.

Back on topic: authentic authenticity is something that must be realized outside of what one does for one's own gain. Usually, we 4s do things so we can do, feel, have this or that. This is motivational, of course, not pathological. We can care. We just have image issues, and inclinations to 'fix' them with impressive achievements. It will never work. That's what we must realize. We need to find ourselves beyond what we desire to make of ourselves.

Come to think of it, that may explain the identity issues: our inability to simply dissociate from what we do enough to distinguish ourselves. Unique, indeed.. We are more ironical.
 

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I function now...I'm almost done with college at a great school, get alright grades - Cs to As, and I'm kinda motivated. I'm not at my fullest potential, though. I should get all As, I haven't worked in 4 years except for when I was required to as part of my major...so I guess I'm in between the two. I slack off a lot because I'm used to being lazy, I guess. I used to chase my dream. I also used to be a huge overachiever without putting in any effort and needed little sleep to function at a very high level. I guess it changes throughout where I am in life?

Oh, and I detest being controlled by other people. I also hate being dependent on others, for example like on my dad for money, but I do it anyway because I'm lazy and just deal with the embarrassment and guilt.
 
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Being independent is very important to me. I wouldn't say it's my main motivation or anything, not just for the sake of being independent, but it's requisite for my larger goals. Being able to "do my own thing" is crucial for my happiness - I HIGHLY resent any pressure to conform, or to commit to anything I'm less than completely passionate about.

I do not ever want to be trapped in a situation where I don't understand what to do (when this does happen, it's one of the worst feelings in the world), or where I am essentially stripped of my power to say no. I never want to HAVE to rely on someone else due to my own ignorance or lack of resources. While I do seek strong bonds, I don't think I can truly trust anyone if my own sense of autonomy is not first in tact. And emotional and financial independence allows for greater autonomy.

I'm not sure how much this has to do with enneagram...

On the other hand I really hate feeling alone and wish I could ease up a little.
 

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The short answer is at the bottom in bold.

The technical answer to your question is taking those parts we like of conventional appeal, making that stable hybrid, and never having to redo it ever again. Authenticity, in regard to the 4, isn't realistic. In my view.

What would stop us from using inauthenticity as an excuse to judge ourselves? Hm... Defeat the cause, which is our idealizing popularity as proof of true humanity. We envy because we're jealous of people that symbolize the standards we wish we could meet. We demean convention by saying we're special, and glorify it by wanting "authenticity," which hails from conventional ideas in the first place.

If one couldn't tell by the threads, 4s are infatuated with their own experiences, and are obsessed with cultural doctrines - with how it pains them, and with how 'above it' they are. It's egoistic, passive aggression, really. I'm a 4 and it's a part of me. I wanna shed light on it to they that mistake it for being mystic, like many 4s themselves. It's that 'uniqueness' disease.

Back on topic: authentic authenticity is something that must be realized outside of what one does for one's own gain. Usually, we 4s do things so we can do, feel, have this or that. This is motivational, of course, not pathological. We can care. We just have image issues, and inclinations to 'fix' them with impressive achievements. It will never work. That's what we must realize. We need to find ourselves beyond what we desire to make of ourselves.

Come to think of it, that may explain the identity issues: our inability to simply dissociate from what we do enough to distinguish ourselves. Unique, indeed.. We are more ironical.
This definitely has verisimilitude. But it's also is an expression of your personal vision of your relationship as a 4 to authenticity. I could say that in this context you're presenting it as 'unique', I could easily characterize it as an attempt to stand out from the 4 crowd.

I'm not being critical, but I'm just pointing out how persistent ego is. This is important to consider when you state "we need to find ourselves beyond what we desire to make of ourselves". Ourselves beyond is just that and always will be that, one step beyond.

Perhaps authenticity is unattainable, but I think the search for it is incredibly valuable. In a very mystic vein, if a person is walking a road to get to Damascus, and he asks for directions from another, it is of no worth for the other to describe the city and then tell him he no longer needs to get there. ;)
 

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This definitely has verisimilitude. But it's also is an expression of your personal vision of your relationship as a 4 to authenticity.
If we address the 4's authenticity as a realistic symbol, sure, you could put it that way. Let's not be hasty to accept that, though. It's a concept born of our sense of needing to prove something about ourselves. If it needs to be proven, then authenticity is real. If it's a figment of our imagination of being especially flawed, then it may be us rationalizing being special.

I could say that in this context you're presenting it as 'unique', I could easily characterize it as an attempt to stand out from the 4 crowd.
Presenting my relationship as unique? To be more specific, I indeed present my relationship as [my opinion of] valuable/good/authentic (like how 4s treat their image). You'll get no denials of my desire to prove my competence, for the sake of my image. I definitely try succeeding my way to prove my own "authenticity." Verily, I have an agenda. Meanwhile I do cognitively think what I mentioned is how we tick.

So, good point, man. Egoism is pervasive, existing alongside even perception; an astute concept to bring up.

[Ego's persistence] is important to consider when you state "we need to find ourselves beyond what we desire to make of ourselves". Ourselves beyond is just that and always will be that, one step beyond.

Perhaps authenticity is unattainable, but I think the search for it is incredibly valuable. In a very mystic vein, if a person is walking a road to get to Damascus, and he asks for directions from another, it is of no worth for the other to describe the city and then tell him he no longer needs to get there. ;)
But of course. No path is forbidden by me. It helps to be made aware so that one's struggles aren't unnecessarily prolonged, or swollen. Seriously, I could have used this advice back in my wilder days. The true goal will never be human authenticity, in my opinion. The thoughts that attaining human authenticity is possible is the drive. Belief in its reality is a state of the 4's motivation, but not a static truth in of itself.

I would say that getting to Damascus is in your head, and I'd let them figure out it's literally there - Damascus - in your head. One's goal is to simply figure out the secret, which is past all the egoism, or what we desire to make of ourselves.
 
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