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Birdie Borracho
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How do these work? Thoughts, info, experiences?

Thanks :)
Personality loops are a result of low self-esteem that transitions into over compensating behavior. When I was younger, I was not very confident. My Ti was plenty developed, but my tertiary Fe showed more in public. I acted like a poorly thought out ESFJ at times. My Ti truly came to fruition when I started to display that side, publicly. Now, I no longer pretend my Fe is a strength. When someone is in a personality loop, people can tell that something is off about that person. People can tell that an ENTP is full of shit if their Fe charm is running wild. That is why function order is important because it signifies maturity.
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
NE feeds TI and FI.

Only some NFs with a strong reject of ST functions rely on both NE and FE a lot. Don't you just suffer from excessive NF-ness ?
ENTP's use Fe not Fi. Personality loops occur between the dominant and tertiary functions.

I don't think I suffer from my personality type either, no :p (Ni-Fe not Ne).
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Personality loops are a result of low self-esteem that transitions into over compensating behavior. When I was younger, I was not very confident. My Ti was plenty developed, but my tertiary Fe showed more in public. I acted like a poorly thought out ESFJ at times. My Ti truly came to fruition when I started to display that side, publicly. Now, I no longer pretend my Fe is a strength. When someone is in a personality loop, people can tell that something is off about that person. People can tell that an ENTP is full of shit if their Fe charm is running wild. That is why function order is important because it signifies maturity.
I've never heard of loops signifying low self esteem before, just an imbalance. Though I guess low self esteem could be one of the causes of that. I've gone into Ni-Ti loops in the past.

I'm curious how the loops play out in other Ti users.

What do you mean by full of shit though exactly? Haha.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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I've never heard of loops signifying low self esteem before, just an imbalance. Though I guess low self esteem could be one of the causes of that. I've gone into Ni-Ti loops in the past.

I'm curious how the loops play out in other Ti users.

What do you mean by full of shit though exactly? Haha.
I suppose we can look at loops like a temporary focus of functions, but I don't really think those are real. What is real, is continuous imbalance, where a person ignores displaying their 2nd function. An extrovert, in a continuous loop, will be really loud and talkative. P types have this low self esteem because they judge themselves (Ti or Fi) as being inferior. J types are not sure how to perceive themselves and their role within the community or world (Si or Ni). This tends to lead to overcompensating narcissistic behavior. Me knowing when to use my Fe over Ti is not a personality loop; it's just situational.

Introverts in a continuous loop tend to be loners and socially detached. J types are unsure of how to sync with other people. P types are unsure of how to relate with other people. If you are occasionally using Ti over Fe, it's not a functional disorder, but rather acknowledging the situation calls for objective thought. If you are unable to find the appeal of connecting with people, then you probably have avoidant traits or disorder. An INFP, who does not know how to relate to others, will likely be schizoid in behavior. Their Ne only functions as a way to depart from the sensory world and live in an unrealistic dream state.

These types of imbalances are due to low self-esteem. The tertiary function becomes the auxiliary, as a way to cope. Occasionally using your tertiary more is not a serious loop, unless it's for a long time. If you are constantly dealing with an Ni-Ti state of mind, then congratulations, you don't consider yourself worthy of other people's affections.

A high self-esteem usually leads to an elitist/bureaucratic mindset. These individuals are heavily focused on their main two functions and never seek to balance out.
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I suppose we can look at loops like a temporary focus of functions, but I don't really think those are real. What is real, is continuous imbalance, where a person ignores displaying their 2nd function. An extrovert, in a continuous loop, will be really loud and talkative. P types have this low self esteem because they judge themselves (Ti or Fi) as being inferior. J types are not sure how to perceive themselves and their role within the community or world (Si or Ni). This tends to lead to overcompensating narcissistic behavior. Me knowing when to use my Fe over Ti is not a personality loop; it's just situational.

Introverts in a continuous loop tend to be loners and socially detached. J types are unsure of how to sync with other people. P types are unsure of how to relate with other people. If you are occasionally using Ti over Fe, it's not a functional disorder, but rather acknowledging the situation calls for objective thought. If you are unable to find the appeal of connecting with people, then you probably have avoidant traits or disorder. An INFP, who does not know how to relate to others, will likely be schizoid in behavior. Their Ne only functions as a way to depart from the sensory world and live in an unrealistic dream state.

These types of imbalances are due to low self-esteem. The tertiary function becomes the auxiliary, as a way to cope. Occasionally using your tertiary more is not a serious loop, unless it's for a long time. If you are constantly dealing with an Ni-Ti state of mind, then congratulations, you don't consider yourself worthy of other people's affections.

A high self-esteem usually leads to an elitist/bureaucratic mindset. These individuals are heavily focused on their main two functions and never seek to balance out.
I'm really not looking to slap oversimplified labels onto people and to judge them. I was able to ask ISTP's and INTP's these questions and get helpful responses. Attributing high self esteem to "usually...an elitist/bureaucratic mindset" - do you have a source for that? You don't categorize elitism as narcissistic behavior?

I guess we disagree then too, because I think that the temporary focus of functions is real. You said that knowing when to use Fe over Ti isn't a personality loop, its situational - but I don't think we're often fully conscious of what function we're using (and the tertiary especially has a tendency to overinflate itself at times due to a lack of awareness). I definitely think it's possible to slip into temporary patterns of loops for whatever (broader) situational reason too. Do you have a source to back your claim that these "types of imbalances are due to low self esteem" as if this is an absolute fact and not just a possible contributing factor?

Also, if you do want to talk disorders why the focus on introverts from paragraph two and on? This is a question for extraverts.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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I'm really not looking to slap oversimplified labels onto people and to judge them. I was able to ask ISTP's and INTP's these questions and get helpful responses. Attributing high self esteem to "usually...an elitist/bureaucratic mindset" - do you have a source for that? You don't categorize elitism as narcissistic behavior?

I guess we disagree then too, because I think that the temporary focus of functions is real. You said that knowing when to use Fe over Ti isn't a personality loop, its situational - but I don't think we're often fully conscious of what function we're using (and the tertiary especially has a tendency to overinflate itself at times due to a lack of awareness). I definitely think it's possible to slip into temporary patterns of loops for whatever (broader) situational reason too. Do you have a source to back your claim that these "types of imbalances are due to low self esteem" as if this is an absolute fact and not just a possible contributing factor?

Also, if you do want to talk disorders why the focus on introverts from paragraph two and on? This is a question for extraverts.
-Paragraph 2 was introverts and the rest was for both.
-Both overcompensating low-self esteem and high self esteem are narcissistic.
-I am relating my own observations and theories. If you disagree that's fine and I encourage dialogue. If you tell me that a lack of sources disqualifies my theory, then I don't actually care. This is PerC, not a science journal. Even then, I think there is some solid philosophy behind what I've proposed. Besides, my Ne prefers theory and does not need Ni confirmation. Any judgment you send my way, my Ti will simply reject it.

I used to be in the permanent Ne-Fe loop when was younger. This simply means that I would outwardly show more Fe than Ti. I would look for creative ways for people to like me, because I wasn't very confident in myself. Now, My Ti is much stronger, and I've realized that when I use Fe, it can be forced. That is what makes it a tertiary and people who don't know a lick about psychology can notice that as well. It's a pitiful cycle, for most people, that their low self-esteem ends up making them less personable.

My ENFP friend, for instance, is the butt of jokes among my friends. I recognize that he's got a low self-esteem, that has improved a little over the past 6 years. However, he tries so hard to get people to notice/like him and he uses tertiary Te to fit in with our friends (A lot of xSTJs). However, it doesn't naturally fit him, people make fun of him, and he often retaliates using Ne-Te to pull power moves or to criticize someone. After all, when someone else is down, then he's not down. We all say that he's the most loyal guy around, but guys are brutal.

I know an INFJ who rarely goes out into the real world. He works and then spends all night on the internet. His Fe exists in that he'll post a lot on Facebook about how people should treat others. However, he rarely makes real life use for it, so he's usually in an Ni-Ti state. INFJ males are definitely not common so he's felt out of place for a long time. Fortunately, he's found a church to attend so he can interact with people there. Lately, his Facebook posts are much happier.

I recognize what functions I'm using because I actually know what they are. You're right that 99.9% of people are unaware. A continuous personality loop/disorder/imbalance is a result of an altered ego. You drifting into Ni-Ti world more has to do with your mood. If you prefer to neglect social interaction, then that it a permanent loop. When I say permanent, I mean that it won't change unless you change it. I, however, have been regularly interacting and psychologically studying people, first hand, for several years. That is how a psychologist learns is by simply interacting with people. There are plenty of INFJs who do the same as I do. I'm not convinced you're one of them because self-esteem is a major contributing factor to cognitive development.
 

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ENTP's use Fe not Fi. Personality loops occur between the dominant and tertiary functions.

I don't think I suffer from my personality type either, no :p (Ni-Fe not Ne).
Ah, the voodoo logic of the shadow functions...

NE represents a function and a distinctive orientation. It means using your imagination (N) to find alternative ideas to your current perspective (E). Being a NE dom litteraly means :

- I prefer to use my imagination than my senses. N>S
- I prefer to find alternative ideas than developping my old ones. P>J (not stricto sensus but what it ends up measuring)

Two different preferences are expressed there. We still prefer one or the other instead of nothing at all. NE > shadow > SI.

I, having a high preference for P, am using FI a lot (and way more than TE). TI > shadow > FE.

So I am not sure what your loop is. It's like saying, actually, that you're caught in a P/J loop. Generally when people can't handle NE, they switch in "defense mode" (J) and NI (or SI) takes the reins to support FE. So they're not likely to go back in "broadmind mode" (P) to keep trolling their feelings.

People who are sustainably caught in a P/J loop are those who rely too much on feeling or thinking functions. For example, the extreme feelers will often freak out when they feel guilty FI->FE, and culpabilize to do so FE->FI.

On the other hand, those who just need to switch in defense mode as soon as NE pops in... are extreme Js. They cannot sustain the loop for a long time, and don't need to since denial is so easy for them.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Ah, the voodoo logic of the shadow functions...

NE represents a function and a distinctive orientation. It means using your imagination (N) to find alternative ideas to your current perspective (E). Being a NE dom litteraly means :

- I prefer to use my imagination than my senses. N>S
- I prefer to find alternative ideas than developping my old ones. P>J (not stricto sensus but what it ends up measuring)

Two different preferences are expressed there. We still prefer one or the other instead of nothing at all. NE > shadow > SI.

I, having a high preference for P, am using FI a lot (and way more than TE). TI > shadow > FE.

So I am not sure what your loop is. It's like saying, actually, that you're caught in a P/J loop. Generally when people can't handle NE, they switch in "defense mode" (J) and NI (or SI) takes the reins to support FE. So they're not likely to go back in "broadmind mode" (P) to keep trolling their feelings.

People who are sustainably caught in a P/J loop are those who rely too much on feeling or thinking functions. For example, the extreme feelers will often freak out when they feel guilty FI->FE, and culpabilize to do so FE->FI.

On the other hand, those who just need to switch in defense mode as soon as NE pops in... are extreme Js. They cannot sustain the loop for a long time, and don't need to since denial is so easy for them.
That was an interesting theory and I like the way you put it. However, that is piss poor Fe you seem to have there. C'mon man and get it together.
 

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For me, Ne basically sees everything that could go wrong, and Fe amplifies on what could go wrong socially. In other words, I experienced huge dosages of social anxiety, and I have no way to rationalize my anxiety or stabilize my mind. I can't organize my thoughts; I'm a huge mess, and there's no internal functioning mental system that Ti helps with. Ne-Fe will go "If you walk to that queue, people will look at you and think 'gosh, she looks stupid.'" Ti will help me rationalize it with a "I highly doubt anyone will really care that much about your looks; you are walking to a damn queue and buying food, not down a catwalk in a beauty pageant."

I woke up every morning without wanting to move. I want to go back to sleep, and if I can--sleep my whole day away. School is my hardest obstacle for it mentally exhausts me. Teachers will pull me out to complain about my lack of homework submission, people will stare at me, and I had to endure the 30 minutes recess break in a hot, sweaty cafeteria that lacks sufficient seats and people had to talk, stand and squeeze themselves into a table. The Ne-Fe loop will make me see everything that could go wrong today with humans, for example "so and so will scream at me today", "so and so will glare at me today", "my class will be rambunctious assholes today", "I'll get another panic attack in class today, and people will keep staring", "my teacher will kick me outside the class and the class will stare at me," or "I had to endure more than 6 hours of seeing more than a few people that I don't hate."

It's socially exhausting, and the best part is that I already feel extremely exhausted before stepping out of the house.
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am relating my own observations and theories. If you disagree that's fine and I encourage dialogue. If you tell me that a lack of sources disqualifies my theory, then I don't actually care. This is PerC, not a science journal.
I wasn't disqualifying it, I was just wondering if you had any sources or not. (You never know, you can find all kinds of brutal stuff with personality theory). I didn't think you probably did, so it's a theory. That's fine. It wasn't presented that way though.

You're right that 99.9% of people are unaware. A continuous personality loop/disorder/imbalance is a result of an altered ego. You drifting into Ni-Ti world more has to do with your mood. If you prefer to neglect social interaction, then that it a permanent loop. When I say permanent, I mean that it won't change unless you change it. I, however, have been regularly interacting and psychologically studying people, first hand, for several years. That is how a psychologist learns is by simply interacting with people. There are plenty of INFJs who do the same as I do. I'm not convinced you're one of them because self-esteem is a major contributing factor to cognitive development.
Well, I never gave a percentage for the amount of people who are unaware, lol. I don't think people are either aware or unaware as a general rule either, I think it probably goes in and out. Maybe you belong to .01% of people though, who knows.

And what are you saying with that last part? It reads as if you're saying that you're not convinced that I regularly interact with and study people because I have low self-esteem? Nice. What would low self esteem have to do with interacting with people anyway though? (I don't have low self-esteem).
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ah, the voodoo logic of the shadow functions...
What do you mean voodoo logic? Fe isn't a shadow function for the ENTP. Ne-Ti-Fe-Si. Shadow functions would be their opposites. (Ni-Te-Fi-Se - INTJ). I've also heard the shadow broadly referring to flipping the functions on their head (Si-Fe-Ti-Ne - ISFJ).

I'm not sure I understand your post. What does being Pe (extraverted perceiving) dominant have to do with Fi?
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
For me, Ne basically sees everything that could go wrong, and Fe amplifies on what could go wrong socially. In other words, I experienced huge dosages of social anxiety, and I have no way to rationalize my anxiety or stabilize my mind. I can't organize my thoughts; I'm a huge mess, and there's no internal functioning mental system that Ti helps with.
Interesting. Ni-Ti sort of works in an opposite way for me. I become completely lost in my world of thoughts and ideas and am oblivious to how socially insane I might look, haha. Coming out of that is damage control.
 

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What do you mean voodoo logic? Fe isn't a shadow function for the ENTP. Ne-Ti-Fe-Si. Shadow functions would be their opposites. (Ni-Te-Fi-Se - INTJ). I've also heard the shadow broadly referring to flipping the functions on their head (Si-Fe-Ti-Ne - ISFJ).

I'm not sure I understand your post. What does being Pe (extraverted perceiving) dominant have to do with Fi?
The purpose of my post it to explain that there are no shadow functions. Shadow functions are an epicycle, the dark matter of a fallacious theory, it does not work like that.

NE > TI > FE > SI is true.

However, NE > TI > FE > SI > Ni > Te > Fi > Se ... is wrong.

A preference for NE means NE > NI/SE > SI.
A preference for TI means TI > TE/FI > FE.

You can sum it that way :

NE/TI >>> NI/SE/TE/FI >>> FE/SI
LOVE >>>>>>MEH>>>>>>HATE

Whereas this is bollocks :

NE/TI >>> FE/SI >>> NI//TE/FI/SE
LOVE>>>>HATE >>> MYSTERIOUS SHADOW BULLSHIT FROM NOWHERE WITH A MIRROR EFFECT THAT GIVES THE ILLUSION OF LOGIC.

Myers and Briggs developped a system that is too simple to work. There's no simple* way to say if ENTPs prefers FI to SE, or NI to FI, or SE to TE. What is NECESSARY is that they prefer those four to FE and SI since that's litterally what NTP means. Myers and Briggs got rid of that problem by inventing the shadow functions, but it couldn't be more wrong, since they are MORE developped, MORE prefered than what they call the tertiary and inferior functions.

As long as people don't understand it, those forums will be full of self-mistyped people fooling themselves.

*) I mean elegant. We can come up with a less elegant typo, maybe a 5 letters one, that fits the four subtypes of any type. But it won't be newb-friendly, to say the least.
 

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MOTM Jan 2015
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The purpose of my post it to explain that there are no shadow functions. Shadow functions are an epicycle, the dark matter of a fallacious theory, it does not work like that.

NE > TI > FE > SI is true.

However, NE > TI > FE > SI > Ni > Te > Fi > Se ... is wrong.

A preference for NE means NE > NI/SE > SI.
A preference for TI means TI > TE/FI > FE.

You can sum it that way :

NE/TI >>> NI/SE/TE/FI >>> FE/SI
LOVE >>>>>>MEH>>>>>>HATE

Whereas this is bollocks :

NE/TI >>> FE/SI >>> NI//TE/FI/SE
LOVE>>>>HATE >>> MYSTERIOUS SHADOW BULLSHIT FROM NOWHERE WITH A MIRROR EFFECT THAT GIVES THE ILLUSION OF LOGIC.

Myers and Briggs developped a system that is too simple to work. There's no simple way to say if ENTPs prefers FI to SE, or NI to FI, or SE to TE. We can only determine SE vs NI and TE vs FI. What is NECESSARY is that they prefer those four to FE and SI since that's litterally what NTP means. Myers and Briggs got rid of that problem by inventing the shadow functions, but it couldn't be more wrong, since they are MORE developped, MORE prefered than what they call the tertiary and inferior functions.

As long as people don't understand it, those forums will be full of self-mistyped people fooling themselves.
Okay, I can follow this a little bit better.

I always saw it as more dualistic than linear though. So not Ne-Ti-Fe-Si-Ni-Te-Fi-Se but:

Ne-Ti-Fe-Si
Ni-Te-Fi-Se

So the functions that aren't preferences are more an alter ego altogether, existing separately from and outside of ourselves. Which actually does tie into Jung's theories on the shadow. He saw it as the unconscious aspects of the personality that we don't identify with. Beebe has helpful theories on the shadow functions as well I think.

"What is NECESSARY is that they prefer those four to FE and SI since that's litterally what NTP means." - I'm not following that though, especially the bolded.
 

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How to present it another way... If you spend most of your life mastering the art of big green circles, does it follow that you will feel more at ease painting small red triangles than big red circles ?

NTP is litterally my big green circle. I particularly excel at big, then circles, then green. It's necessarily easier for me to paint big red circles (NI, FI) than small green triangles (SE, TE), but the hardest still are small red triangles (FE, SI).

Either this is true or I am not that NTP. (I am)
 
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