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Discussion Starter #1
Ne/Ni Jungian Cognitive Function Interaction​

Good Afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen,

I decided it was time to introduce something that hasn't been discussed on depth in any of the major mbti type forums that I've frequented over the past year. It's one of my particular pet topics which people often come to ask me about in various guises. I've talked about it in some depth before but I thought it may be time to document it for posterity.

One of the great complications on this type of interaction is that people often have their own definition of what Ne and Ni are; therefore it is best to start by letting you know how I have come to define and understand these cognitive functions.

Ne Preference and Interpersonal Interaction

Ne is the easier to understand of the two; Ne has the attitude of preferring to extrapolate ideas from external stimulus. As the dominant Ne types you will see in ENTPs and ENFPs have a tendency to seek out stimulating ideas from interaction with others.

These types often lament that they feel like 'knowledge thieves' taking others ideas and seeing alternate uses for them; of course what they may not realise is that they have a greater ability to spontaneously modify this idea (sometimes wildly) and find a new idea that few others may have brought to fruition before.

This therefore teaches dominant Ne users that interpersonal reaction and stimulus giving is a 'good thing'. Thus if they feel they wish to improve their interactions with another person (shower them with love/make friends etc.) they will have a natural reaction of delivering large amounts of stimulus to that person and expect the same in return.

Ni Preference and Interpersonal Interaction

Ni has a more complex definition that I have failed to see anyone accurately define at all. Ni has the attitude of preferring to interpolate optimum systems from ideas based upon internal stimulus. This gives the dominant Ni types, the INTJ and INFJ's a focus on 'key symbolic ideas' which can be brought forward and optimized to build structure. Because Ni reacts to internal stimulus, these types will be external stimulus avoidant (sic. human interaction) as they would prefer space to help them solve whatever symbolic problem is running in their head.

In human interaction these types often appear acutely observant; although they may have phased out to deal with some lingering internal conundrum. The support function adds considerably more definition to interaction as it is the external aspect. INTJs when they flip from Ni to Te will appear critical, viewing ideas as systems to be interpolated and optimized to solve any outstanding problems or to develop their understanding of ideas, with Ni providing a symbolic focus on the key aspects. INFJs will appear giving, with Fe actualising a need to empathically share what they view are the iconic themes that are driving them; expect lots of subtle but powerful emotional gestures based upon others needs.

Therefore, dominant Ni users view intrapersonal thinking and blocking out external stimulus as the preferred opportunity available to them. If they they feel they wish to make friends or express love to another they will do so by interacting via. their secondary external aspect while dotting it with key iconic themes that their Ni prefers. They will then retreat to allow the other time to digest the concept as they would do themselves, regardless of the partner’s preference. As they wish significant space and time to flex their Ni, they expect others also to wish it as a consequence.

Opposing Interpersonal Interaction

To summarise where we are at this point it is important to note that:
Ne types will prefer to receive and give stimulus as is their preference
Ni types will prefer to have and give space as is their preference.

These two functional attitudes to interpersonal interaction are directly opposed which can lead to communication confusion between Ni and Ne users.

I have often stressed that as a dominant Ni user I often feel that any interaction with an Ne user is immediately a loss. Because my preference is to sit and ponder and introvert to have a lengthy conversation with an ENxP I lose a large portion of my ability to do so while I feed their Ne. In effect, they love it, but I lose doing what I prefer to some degree.

The side effect of such positive interaction for the Ne dominant is that they may choose to like the Ni dominant so much that they shower them with attention, without realising that this makes the Ni dominant feel at even greater of a loss as opposed to allowing time for the Ni dominant to recover and ponder. They may then become offended because if the Ni user wishes to be friendly with them they may receed into their shell because that is the Ni preference.

As a result it is very important to find some kind of type interaction balance between Ne and Ni users and an understanding of how the other shows affection is the flip side of what may be naturally expected.

Personal Note

I have always had significant difficulty doing so in my own life; often having at least one ENFP around bombarding me with what I would view as mild dramas that I wish they would go away and solve themselves (and yes, they definitely have a lot more energy than I have to solve it!); of course this is my misunderstanding their ultimate sign of affection 'Look at this problem! Stimulus' without realising that it is a sign of belligerence to the Ni user. Also note that the Ni user shows love in a way the Ne does not necessarily reconcile 'I love you now I give you space!' they will say 'where is the interaction'.

Of course, we know from a development perspective that it would be foolish to ignore the interaction of this type as Ni users require this external stimulus to develop their supporting functions, therefore Ni users should seek out this type of interaction in a way they find manageable and Ne users should appreciate that the Ni user will require to retreat and introvert much more than they may be happy with.
 

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What's confusing is that my mom as an INFJ seems to be an exception to your explanations of Ni. Maybe it's her Fe and the fact that she's older. Maybe that's only how she interacts with her family?...I dunno. But my sister who's an INTJ does seem to need a lot of time alone.
And that had been hard for me to understand in the past. But I understand her better now thanks to MBTI. Funnily, my mom isn't very understanding of the time my sister spends alone.


These types often lament that they feel like 'knowledge thieves' taking others ideas and seeing alternate uses for them; of course what they may not realise is that they have a greater ability to spontaneously modify this idea (sometimes wildly) and find a new idea that few others may have brought to fruition before.
I steal peoples' jokes sometimes also lol
 

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I'm a bit confused about the differences between how Ti/Ne and Ni/Te operate. (mostly because of the Ni/Ne difference)
When seeking to understand a concept, I check for logical consistency (how and Why it works) and then try to understand how the concept would function in every situation which my mind can create. Typical Ti/Ne I would think.

When I brainstorm, I like to start with a word and jump from idea to idea until I reach some useful idea.
Ex. I wanted to create a map on a video game. This is my thought process. I see a heater: heat wave, force magnetic field, solar system, gravity, planets. Then the idea comes - A map with different terrain in different areas each with their own gravitational pull, giving the illusion of different planets. This seems totally Ne to me. If so, then what does Ni look like (for you anyway)?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm a bit confused about the differences between how Ti/Ne and Ni/Te operate. (mostly because of the Ni/Ne difference)
When seeking to understand a concept, I check for logical consistency (how and Why it works) and then try to understand how the concept would function in every situation which my mind can create. Typical Ti/Ne I would think.
What's confusing is that my mom as an INFJ seems to be an exception to your explanations of Ni. Maybe it's her Fe and the fact that she's older. Maybe that's only how she interacts with her family?...I dunno. But my sister who's an INTJ does seem to need a lot of time alone.
That is outwith the topic of this post, but I am intending to eventual create a post detailing how the primary and secondary cognitive functions cause INTs to be especially introverted (placing a far higher value on time alone) by comparing them to INFs. This may be something I will describe in detail as the basis of that.
 

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Very nice description of interactions. I've noticed a lot of these same concepts in dealing with my sister, an INFP. But I think that both Ni and Ne traits require external confirmation on their ideas, my sister is just much more reserved in divulging her problems than I am. However, I know immediately when something is wrong, call it intuition.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Very nice description of interactions. I've noticed a lot of these same concepts in dealing with my sister, an INFP. But I think that both Ni and Ne traits require external confirmation on their ideas, my sister is just much more reserved in divulging her problems than I am. However, I know immediately when something is wrong, call it intuition.
If your sister is INFP she runs on Fi-Ne. Not Ni.
 

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Ne is the easier to understand of the two; Ne has the attitude of preferring to extrapolate ideas from external stimulus. As the dominant Ne types you will see in ENTPs and ENFPs have a tendency to seek out stimulating ideas from interaction with others.

These types often lament that they feel like 'knowledge thieves' taking others ideas and seeing alternate uses for them; of course what they may not realise is that they have a greater ability to spontaneously modify this idea (sometimes wildly) and find a new idea that few others may have brought to fruition before.

This therefore teaches dominant Ne users that interpersonal reaction and stimulus giving is a 'good thing'. Thus if they feel they wish to improve their interactions with another person (shower them with love/make friends etc.) they will have a natural reaction of delivering large amounts of stimulus to that person and expect the same in return.
As a result it is very important to find some kind of type interaction balance between Ne and Ni users and an understanding of how the other shows affection is the flip side of what may be naturally expected.
I find that this has been my experience with extroverts in general.. and it reminds me how one must understand the mechanism of a function (that is, to understand the effect of a function being introverted or extroverted; the orientation) in order to understand the significance and true effect of it. I don't know why more have not discussed this, because it would seem this type of topic would be most conducive to discerning the peculiarities of particular functions.

Indeed, how do we come to a truly positive type interaction?, when because of our own functions, we have a tendency to have expectations, about what other people might prefer, and how we should act, and also because the nature of our functions may have an energy zapping effect. Do you define a more 'positive' interaction one where energy exchange between the person (or people) as being more 'balanced'? I find that being around extraverts seemingly unconsciously takes my energy more than introverts, in general. I suppose at one point, you end up unconsciously (yet purposely) yielding your functions when it becomes too encroaching on another person, in a way. For example, although Ne is my supporting function, I sometimes find that dominant Ne dominants completely miss the point of what I'm talking about, and I demand they listen to what I'm actually saying and stay focused and on topic. Another better example is, theigher once described how his parents interact. He said sometimes his mother (esfp; Ne) gives his father (isfp; Ni) too many options at dinner, and doesn't give him time to think, and his father gets frustrated at this, and verbally expresses his exasperation at being presented with so many options.

It seems that from the above, during interaction, two opposing functional orientations eventually come at odds with each other, and when they do, boundaries are set (in the above example, the mother recognises and acknowledges the disturbance of being presented with lots of external options causes the father). Often the boundaries have to be reaffirmed (I experience that with Fe-doms in particular). But it seems it takes the functional attitudes coming at odds with each other in order for the boundaries to be set in the first place.

I think interaction seems to result in situations where growth is necessary in order for there to be harmony and thus a balance of energy between parties involved. Clearly it takes time for a person to understand the opposite orientations of functions that guide them. And also, functions seem to be reaffirmed by internal and external feedback, just like you mentioned the scenario of the Ne-doms experience of Ni-doms.

This therefore teaches dominant Ne users that interpersonal reaction and stimulus giving is a 'good thing'. Thus if they feel they wish to improve their interactions with another person (shower them with love/make friends etc.) they will have a natural reaction of delivering large amounts of stimulus to that person and expect the same in return.
I find that I get along much easier with introverts, because regardless of their functions, there already seems to be boundaries set. It's only when getting to know another introvert, that I can see how our boundaries are in different areas of focus.

Given that Ni is a perceiving function; in your opinion, what role can the external play? if it plays a 'role' at all? secondly, I find that Ni-doms generally seem to understand Ne connections fairly well; why is this and what does it require of you?

I wonder, in interaction, what kind of information could an Ni satisfy an Ne-dom with, without losing energy from the experience? In my experience, I can't keep up with an fe-dom; but I can negotiate the interaction, by accepting their Fe and adding my Fi perspective, espousing it as a legitimate 'other half of the whole' i.e. adding depth and persuading them to accept the position, and then creating time away for myself to process.

Good thread, anyway Jim.
 

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Spot on, Jim.

I just went through an a-ha moment with my ESxJ mom.
Me: Why are you always nagging me? I mean, I've been trying really hard to make you feel special lately!
Her: Why are you always so distant? I feel like you're never part of the family at all. Even in the car, you never ask me questions, you just sit there.
Me: Uh...
Her: I feel like you don't care about me at all!
Me: Uh...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Given that Ni is a perceiving function; in your opinion, what role can the external play? if it plays a 'role' at all? secondly, I find that Ni-doms generally seem to understand Ne connections fairly well; why is this and what does it require of you?
Ni is internal perceiving, if you read Jung he describes that the Ni has an incredibly rich, spontaneous and erratic internal mind; but not only that, he believed that one with dominant Ni finds this world much more comforting than that they perceive with their extravert function (Te/Fe) which is why the focus so heavily upon introversion. Note that by this method the INTJ attempts to push the world back with logic and selectivity to find solace Te - the descrimination of is this better than the benchmark? and then attempting to refocus objectively, while the INFJ attempts to placate the world by showing understanding to it Fe - Let us understand each other to allay my fears. By contrast Ne finds no threat in the external world therefore their imagination leaps into it becoming extrovert.

One could say that Ni is acutely aware of the external world and therefore chooses to avoid it, one gneerates a self fufilling loop of fear of unleashing ideas onto the world, whereas Ne finds the external world completely happy to contain their thoughts and pours them outward. In effect Ni sees what Ne sees and takes heed then warns internally against it; playing with it internally but not allowing it into the world as some fear that the idea may have some kind of life of its own.

I wonder, in interaction, what kind of information could an Ni satisfy an Ne-dom with, without losing energy from the experience? In my experience, I can't keep up with an fe-dom; but I can negotiate the interaction, by accepting their Fe and adding my Fi perspective, espousing it as a legitimate 'other half of the whole' i.e. adding depth and persuading them to accept the position, and then creating time away for myself to process.
Generally the Ne wishes the Ni to unleash their ideas, as this is the primary fear of the Ni its not possible unless the Ni is convinced that the Ne won't brand them some kind of evil wicked person for thinking such things. The interesting thing about Ni is that it has a subconciously selective mode of right and wrong which doesn't see eye to eye with Fi (stated moral drives) which can often make dominant Fi users (IxFP) see an undeveloped Ni user as a goodie box they never get to open as Ni doesn't make a lot of sense to anyone because it is regressive in the subconcious whilst being highly imaginative and the Ni user is unlikely to wish to state what those drives are.
 

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...while the INFJ attempts to placate the world by showing understanding to it Fe - Let us understand each other to allay my fears. By contrast Ne finds no threat in the external world therefore their imagination leaps into it becoming extrovert.
I remember a discussion I had with Calysco one time about this. During a beach party I had scuttled off as I normal do in party scenarios to walk under the bridge and look at the rocks that washed upon the beach. As I picked them up I began thinking of Thoreau, and about people in general, comparing them to rock on the beach. One of my friends then found me and asked me what I was doing, curious as to what significance the rocks in my hand had, as they weren't very pretty, and I had quite a few of them. Immediately, I bs'ed a reason for why I had them, saying I was looking for "cool" ones, and that the ones I had found were not, then immediately throwing them back into the ocean. I feared that the significance that I had found in seemingly useless items wouldn't be understood or valued, so instead of explaining myself, I tossed the evidence and switched the subject.
 

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This is a great article. Very few Ni descriptions I'm comfortable with. This one I can relate to very well. I normally test INTP but I'm not entirely convinced. INXJ is plausible but the descriptions never seem quite right, at least not ones that adequately explain the thinking process I experience.
 

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Ni is internal perceiving, if you read Jung he describes that the Ni has an incredibly rich, spontaneous and erratic internal mind; but not only that, he believed that one with dominant Ni finds this world much more comforting than that they perceive with their extravert function (Te/Fe) which is why the focus so heavily upon introversion. Note that by this method the INTJ attempts to push the world back with logic and selectivity to find solace Te - the descrimination of is this better than the benchmark? and then attempting to refocus objectively, while the INFJ attempts to placate the world by showing understanding to it Fe - Let us understand each other to allay my fears. By contrast Ne finds no threat in the external world therefore their imagination leaps into it becoming extrovert.

One could say that Ni is acutely aware of the external world and therefore chooses to avoid it, one gneerates a self fufilling loop of fear of unleashing ideas onto the world, whereas Ne finds the external world completely happy to contain their thoughts and pours them outward.
It always confused me how a perception function could be introverted...or subjective. It seemed as if a perception function would need to be extroverted/objective, but I guess my limited understanding might stem from my status as an ExxP.
So unlike Ne which needs to take in from the environment to make connections, Ni's connections are already there? I take information directly, and try to fit it into an internal model of logic. Ni tries to apply it's intuition/understanding to an external model?
Basically, Ni sees what can happen or what can be, and they need to gain peace with their extroverted judgment function? Would these things that Ni perceives be led by their Je function and also brought to peace by their Je function? I'm only asking that because my mom(INFJ, again) seems to be concerned with whether or not I will be close to her or whether I will love her in the future. I can see that she might bring peace to herself by pushing me to talk with her and share. Or...I suppose an INTJ may have the same perceptions, but alleviate them in more of a Te-ish way than an Fe-ish way?
Also, do you think that for this reason, an INxJ child may be much more introverted, but then get more extroverted as they get older? And I don't mean that they will display complete 'extroverted traits', but that they will be more extroverted for the reasons you highlighted.

In effect Ni sees what Ne sees and takes heed then warns internally against it; playing with it internally but not allowing it into the world as some fear that the idea may have some kind of life of its own.

Generally the Ne wishes the Ni to unleash their ideas, as this is the primary fear of the Ni its not possible unless the Ni is convinced that the Ne won't brand them some kind of evil wicked person for thinking such things.
Can you maybe elaborate on this? :mellow:



For example, although Ne is my supporting function, I sometimes find that dominant Ne dominants completely miss the point of what I'm talking about, and I demand they listen to what I'm actually saying and stay focused and on topic.
I may have done that with you a couple of times, I dunno. It's partly because I really introduce topics to people in the interest of freely exploring them and coming to new ideas and possibilities. I apply everything people say to other things, and that might get me off on tangents lol. That may be irritating in communication between INPs and ENPs because I think that INPs are more apt to having their understanding of things(Ji) set while the ENPs is not necessarily set and they want to explore things to do so.
 

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This is further confusing me as to what Ni really is. In another thread that I made called "I need to understand Ni"......

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/25454-i-need-understand-ni.html

All I gathered is that with Ne users, the people want to change things and jump from idea to idea while rarely completing ideas before they go to the next. However, Ni users tend to only see the complete things and it's more about seeing things from multiple perspectives than it is changing them. This is basically the only thing that I understand when it comes to comparing Ne to Ni.
 
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All I gathered is that with Ne users, the people want to change things and jump from idea to idea while rarely completing ideas before they go to the next. However, Ni users tend to only see the complete things and it's more about seeing things from multiple perspectives than it is changing them. This is basically the only thing that I understand when it comes to comparing Ne to Ni.
I think that I've gained a better understanding of it. I think that when INJs look at things from different angles, that may be their Je or their action of applying their intuiton(which is more like knowing) into different contexts. For instance, my sister(INTJ) took an AP test and got a 4(5 was the highest score). In the past, these kinds of things have really bothered her, but when she started talking about her score, she started talking about how that experience could help her when she takes future tests and it may help her do much better since she knows what to expect. That seems like she was looking at it in Te terms vs. what her Ni may have originally perceived.
You're right, it's not about changing them(because they can't be changed anyway), but working around them or moving on through life despite these intuitions/perceptions of what will happen via applying them to external contexts(Je...Te or Fe)...Multiple external contexts(Je) may be what some people mean when they talk about it as if it looks at things from multiple angles.
 

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You're right, it's not about changing them(because they can't be changed anyway), but working around them or moving on through life despite these intuitions/perceptions of what will happen via applying them to external contexts...Multiple contexts may be what some people mean when they talk about it as if it looks at things from multiple angles.
Is this an Ni thing or a Te thing? My ENTJ little brother does this well. For example, when something shitty happens to me, I get really emotional and just think, "What could I have done to prevent this?" However, my little bro says, "What's done is done. Now lets move on." I look to the past about what could have been done to change the future, and my brother only considers the future.
 

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Is this an Ni thing or a Te thing? My ENTJ little brother does this well. For example, when something shitty happens to me, I get really emotional and just think, "What could I have done to prevent this?" However, my little bro says, "What's done is done. Now lets move on." I look to the past about what could have been done to change the future, and my brother only considers the future.
That's Ni.
ENPs need to experience to understand. That's because their perception function is dominant and extroverted.

My mom, an INFJ, is very good with motivating people because she gets them to forget their experience and work with what they have at that moment in time. I think that's one way in which an Ni-dom can help an Ne-dom grow. And also, my mom has said similar things to that... 'what's done is done'.


With Ne, the way you come to understand something is VERY important! That's why an Ne-user may take so much to explain so little. Because every little part that makes it up is important to the understanding. That's because if you take out one little part or add a different small part, the understanding may completely change.
Maybe Ni tries to get rid of those small parts? I think I've read that somewhere...As if the small parts that Ne looks at may hinder proper understanding? That's how I've heard it explained at times...
In terms of their inferior/tertiary Se, they may try to forget the past and work from the current time with their intuition. Or actually, I think that they look at certain things in a more 'concrete' way(Se). That's why they may dislike how an Ne-dom might 'weave into things' at points.



PS...I edited this a couple of times, sorry.
 

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Lara Groft's post was the last one that I read, because I agree with her.
Im an INFJ, and I really think need the alone time as you said we do. So I was thinking maybe its Fe, or something else, but it seems like their is a difference between INTJ's and INFJ's Ni.

Idk, Im just putting this out there because I was confused when I first started reading your post and thought that I was using some other function or something....like really had me second guessing myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It always confused me how a perception function could be introverted...or subjective. It seemed as if a perception function would need to be extroverted/objective, but I guess my limited understanding might stem from my status as an ExxP.
So unlike Ne which needs to take in from the environment to make connections, Ni's connections are already there? I take information directly, and try to fit it into an internal model of logic. Ni tries to apply it's intuition/understanding to an external model?
Basically, Ni sees what can happen or what can be, and they need to gain peace with their extroverted judgment function? Would these things that Ni perceives be led by their Je function and also brought to peace by their Je function?
There is a slight sneakiness in dominant introverts, the function which may appear as inner perception (be that Si or Ni) takes on a role that is both judgement or perception. Let me explain. The Ni function is imaginary and builds up a database of icons and ideas of importance it then uses these to synthesise creative thought and to selectively filter its own thoughts hence its introverted aspect, feeling that many of the rich thoughts it create should not be let out into the world as they contravene the icons and ideas that the Ni user values: a kind of icon driven Fi. Thus it is both a perceptive function in seeing the realm of the minds eye vividly whilst acting as a judgemental function by being a filter to thought.

You should also be careful to note that although the Ni's inner world may be subjective, their dealings in the outer world are entirely objective or passive as the are focused upon Te or Fe. This provides them an outlet to perceive the world and grasp the information it contains and use this information to improve their Ni perception.

Ni fear... Can you maybe elaborate on this? :mellow:
Because the dominant Ni user sees the system they have built as internally fulfilling they are in effect entirely content in resting within their mind and its subjectiveness rather than leaping forward into the real world which they find a place which does not match their expectations and thus slightly scary. This is the importance of the secondary function in providing some reality to Ni that the user may be content to interact with the real world without perceiving that the real world is threatening.

It also has a somewhat ascendatory social effect that once content that their ideas cannot be unleashed to damage the external world (external objectivity satisfied) that in extrovert exchange the Ni user sees the external world as flexible rather than internal leading to free effects of manipulating the external world whilst continual staying true to their internal moral compass and whatever this may contain. This is how Ni often retains a kind of weak Fi influence and often is the basis of moral Fi in the INTJ or the belief in positive social interaction in the Fe aspect of the developed INFJ.

All I gathered is that with Ne users, the people want to change things and jump from idea to idea while rarely completing ideas before they go to the next. However, Ni users tend to only see the complete things and it's more about seeing things from multiple perspectives than it is changing them. This is basically the only thing that I understand when it comes to comparing Ne to Ni.
Do more research and come to a better understanding of the two functions before asking others to explain something that you haven't integrated the required basis ideas to understand in depth or you will not be satisfied with anyones answers on the topic.

With Ne, the way you come to understand something is VERY important! That's why an Ne-user may take so much to explain so little. Because every little part that makes it up is important to the understanding. That's because if you take out one little part or add a different small part, the understanding may completely change.
Are you sure you aren't focusing on your understanding function, Ti, which requires prefers complete detail to grasp and solve a problem? If you note the NFP Ne users do not feel so constrained when trying to rest on a solution as they are supported by Fi first and Te which prefers approximations to accuracy.
 
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