Need advice from some ESTJ's

Well I haven't dated any ENFP, but my mom is an ENFP so I can see where you're having difficulties. My grandpa also happens to be an ESTJ and I know he drives my mom nuts a lot of the time. My mom and I have had problems, but now we get along pretty well. I would say that a mother-daughter relationship is totally different then most though. At least for my mom I know she hates how controlling my grandpa gets, even though he mostly does it just to protect her. She has learned though that she just has to tell him to stop it and that it hurts her feelings. For me and him, we often do things to hurt people and don't realize it. If someone tells us that it's hurting them, usually if we care about that person, we will stop immediately. Your ESTJ is probably going to be very black and white about things, and possibly a little controlling, but if you last long you will have someone that loves you with an astounding loyalty. If they're open to hearing what you have to say, then they're worth keeping, if not, they may not be able to get out of that controlling zone. For me, my mom sometimes can seem a little impractical or silly to me, but she has a compassion for others that is amazing and i have grown to appreciate the kind of love that radiates from her. I hope this helps! Good luck.

Thanks for your advice. Black and white, controlling.... check and check. He is very open to communicating about these things, and he is aware of his own flaws and how his behavior can affect others. Due to his own childhood experiences and upbringing he has some problems being vocal with his emotions naturally and has been very honest with me about this and even said, if you feel like I didn't give you good feedback emotionally, just let me know and I will try to give you a better response. This is sweet that he is self-aware about this and willing to change, but as an ENFP who is constantly scanning my environment for context clues about whether or not the person I am with is happy, sad, etc his "aloofness", as I perceive it, is very confusing for me and I constantly feel this sense of start, stop, an unsureness, so to speak and its a difficult thing for me to feel. Another problem I have noticed is that I get the sense that he sees me as being a person who is not as sure of herself in conversations that are serious or discussions about our relationship, when in reality (or "my reality") I just have a tendency to ramble a bit more and discuss my feelings rather than strict facts and logic, as he does. He also has a sense that I am passive and has told me that he doesn't see the independent, outgoing personality that I have told him I tend to lean towards. I know that a big part of this has to do with not feeling super comfortable around him, and I think that has to do with the fact that our personality's may just be incompatible -- I don't feel comfortable around him because I sense that he perceives me as being passive, that makes me uncomfortable and unhappy and its a vicious cycle.

Ya it may be that you're just not compatible for the long run. We tend to be over critical sometimes without actually realizing it. I don't know if this could work, but you could try telling him exactly what you said here. That you see the world differently, probably in a very grey way. It doesn't mean that you don't have an opinion, or aren't certain about what you're talking about, it's that you're trying to look at all the different sides of things? Is that right? My mom is constantly explaining these things to me. Before reading "Please Understand Me II" I had no idea that people looked at things in certain ways, but now instead of criticizing I first try to figure out what they may naturally feel or think. It's sort of like a puzzle. If you feel like he sees you as passive, tell him if that hurts you. It sounds like he's open to listening and change so that's good. I would say things in facts to my boyfriend about things that upset me and all he read from that was that he was a bad boyfriend, which is not what i meant. I'm sorry he makes you feel uncomfortable. You could try telling him that, which is what my mom did to her father. Also, maybe try saying that you are independent and outgoing, but he's also that way and so when you're together you feel like he sort of overpowers you? I know my mom often feels like she can't get a word in or act on her own when her dad is around, until she finally said "look you need to leave me alone, i am fully capable of doing things on my own". Guardians really like to take care of people, so if he said that it might have not been that bad of a criticism. It sounds like he may have grown up in a household where talking about emotions is just not allowed. Obviously, since I have a ENFP mother this was completely allowed and encouraged, but my grandfather grew up in a situations where it wasn't the case. So he had some trouble with that, but he married an INFJ and she sort of got him to open up and tell her why he was really upset beyond all the facts and details. But you shouldn't be in a relationship if it makes you uncomfortable and unhappy, but telling him that might help because most of all we hate to hurt the people around us and so we really take it to heart when they have the guts to tell us.

Thanks for your input and feedback, its probably true that we may not be compatible, and I don't think it all has to do with just our differing personality types-- I really think he is exhibiting signs of being on the rebound, despite what he says to the contrary- which makes sense, in all honesty, a lot of people on the rebound don't realize they are or don't want to recognize that. He dated someone for 7 years and things were really rocky the last few years (they were engaged, but he called off the wedding yet continued to try to work things out for a couple years) - The last year they were together he had totally emotionally checked out and he was talking a lot with a girl who had a lot of the qualities he felt were lacking in his long term relationship (he is super methodical and meticulous about cleanliness and he felt like the woman he was with was always leaving things half done, plus he is a super in shape guy and the woman he was with gained about 40 pounds and he just didn't feel sexually attracted to her anymore even though she was and still is, one of his best friends) - Anyway so he was basically emotionally cheating with this other girl and after he finally broke up with the woman he was engaged to...He jumped right into the new relationship and things were super rocky right away- lots of red flags that he uncharacteristically ignored. Long story short, she ended up cheating on him and they argued and fought all the time, which is totally not his natural way of communicating, that much is obvious. So anyway, in typical ENFP fashion, I want to try to "help him" and be there for him, and about a month into things I confessed that I felt often that it seemed like he needs more of a friend than a girlfriend, he was very surprised by this and didn't see things that way.......I think I have been writing off a lot of warning signs as being things that are part of his "personality type" as he is more methodical and not as prone to emotions and feelings -- but I am starting to wonder if in reality its that he is not emotionally ready for a new relationship. (He broke up with the ex fiance last November, started dating the new girl in December/January.......and that ended in early August. We have been dating since the early October....) He constantly is re-hashing the problems with the ex and also has said things, that honestly, I don't want to hear, as much as I am happy to be there and be a listening ear. For example, he told me how his last relationship was only maintained for as long as it was because they had a lot of passion, and sort of talked about how both of them admitted at the time that it was the best sex they had ever had.... So I think I try to rationalize this and tell myself, well he is a total facts guy who isn't saying this to try to hurt my feelings, stop being such a sensitive NF.........But, seriously its hard for me to feel connected in a new relationship when this type of behavior is going on.

mmm that is an interesting point. Often when I sort of scare people away accidentally they start to stop talking to me about deep things and sort of put up a wall. Then I get worried that I'm not taking care of them enough or something and so I get upset and try to fix it by saying other things, which may push the other person away more. Its kind of a vicious cycle. So if you really don't think you can fix that uncomfortable feeling then maybe you should just end it. I know that you feel the need to fix him but usually guardians are sort of opposed to this since we like to do the caring. That may also be making it uncomfortable because you want to care for him like that and he doesnt want you to or something. And I'm sorry about the too much info, we tend to just say anything that comes to mind, especially things that are the truth without meaning to. This sounds awful, but he could also be telling you these things to see if he gets a reaction out of you. You could just say something like, "I know you're really upset about this, but do you really think i'm the right person to talk to about this?" See what he says, he may not have even notice how awkward that could be. Or I don't know, sometimes if I say something about my ex to my boyfriend he gets sort of upset and then will say don't do that it makes me jealous, and just hearing that makes me stop because it reminds me that i'm supposed to focus on him and i kind of like that he's jealous too . It's hard to say if you're on the rebound though. If he's being playful or flirty, or giving you physical affection then you're more than just friends. If you were just a friend he would avoid that. He might just feel really guilty about his last relationship. As long as you gave this relationship a try that's what really counts.

struggles about being married to an enfp

Hi there

I am new here, but i am definitely not new to the struggles with being in a relationship with an enfp. I am an estj married to an enfp for more than five years. and I must say it has been very hard, though I know it is harder for my husband than it is for me. Reading your entries, Amy Lynn, is such a good reminder for me to be gracious to my husband, and I know it is really really hard for you. I feel almost hypocritical saying that, since I can so identify with the behaviour of your partner, as I am also a check check and cleanliness person, though for the cleanliness part it has only become like that because I had such a bad invasion of bugs in my parents' place when I was growing up. I vowed never to have them invade my life again! Sigh. Anyway back to the behaviour of an estj - yes we are very very critical. I cringe when I think about the things I have said to my husband, when my sense of order and structure and safety is being threatened. Sadly, I can never take my words back.

But I look forward to making things better. You are right, estjs are very attracted to order and structure sort of work. I worked in the military, and I suspect your partner may be in the same line? The funny thing is even if the work is not inherently structured, estjs are wonderful at creating structure. But the good thing is that I am no longer able to work in this way, because being such a high strung person, I developed a sleep problem that I am no longer employable in a full capacity. It is sad sometimes, because I have so much to contribute, but I am not sorry about it in the end, because it kept my sanity, and most importantly, it showed me what immense love my husband has for me. My husband stayed awake when I could not sleep, and he helps me relax and tries very hard to provide for me and reassure me. I bonded with him through adversity. Ever since I stopped work, I had time to reflect and rest, and am therefore always reminded to try and keep things simple, and to learn that I can never control everything. What helps is my husband and I keep very separate places for our daily activities, in an attempt to avoid conflict, and for a while we had the luxury of having separate toilets and bathroom. It helped, tremendously.

As to why he loves me, well I think enfps should know it is very hard for them to state factually why they love, but for the times my husband managed to share factually, he just said he admired me for always trying to be the best to people, and for always trying to be unyielding in in the face of evil. He always says he rests secure in the knowledge that I would not betray him, and he says enfp men will not fall for women who are flighty and ungrounded. So maybe Amy Lynn, you may be in love with your partner because you feel he is grounded? I can only say that as an enfp, you are most wonderful as a support giver, and as estjs, we are usually most wonderful in setting an example or inspiration for bringing social betterment and for trying to maintain our integrity. In finding a common ground to build love, there needs to be a lot of space giving. You can start by giving physical space, and gradually see how you can create some emotional space as well. You may find that you and your partner will blossom in the relationship better, or you may discover that the space is so great that you actually really enjoy being alone and without him. In this case, then you will know it is time to move on.

ALL THE BEST!

That's funny that you say that he seems like he is in the military- He is actually not, he's a surgeon (just as methodical and meticulous with that field) - But he often states that he would have loved to have been in the military or the air force.

Its very true that I like him for being so grounded, I have dated guys that were closer to my personality type and they mostly just bugged me because I really respect people who are hard working and structured and responsible.

Recently, I had some personal problems and he has really been there for me. Its obvious that he loves to be a caretaker. Honestly, I am realizing from doing reading about personality types that his way of showing he cares is by just being there and by being together, while mine is much more by being affectionate, sharing feelings and loving and caring. I think we both are confused by the others way of showing feelings but I am trying to recognize that just because he doesn't always feel comfortable talking about his feelings and is not emotional, his presence and the way he takes care of me is his way of showing his feelings.

I don't think he even always realizes that the things he says hurt me and are as critical as they come across...Sometimes we will be out with friends and he will say something and I can see by the way they look taken aback that they think it was rude or shocking, and I have just become accustomed to this, or at least desensitized a little bit. But it still hurts and I realize that the relationships with friends in which I flourish the most I never feel that sense of puppy dog hurt. And things like that often make me feel like we are wrong for each other - I don't want to be a complainer and if I know that I am this hurt often, I should perhaps acknowledge that we just shouldn't be together. Thanks so much for your insights and help, it means a lot.

Hi AmyLynn!

I know it has been said before, but I definitely agree the best policy is to be open and honest with an ESTJ when they do or say something that makes you upset. I have 2 very close friends who are ENFP, and I know both of them will literally flee any sort of confrontation situation. That being said, when they have risen to the task of calling me out on things, it has always been a very productive conversation. If you do raise issue, though, make sure you can back up what you say b/c in most cases an ESTJ is going to ask why. You shouldn't be afraid of "why?", b/c if an ESTJ really cares about you the intent of the question is to understand and to listen, not to prod or judge.

On the other hand, I once dated an INFP who would always tell me everything was peachy until the day she suddenly called me to break up. That made me very angry and really hurt my feelings (which is a feat in itself) and I would have much preferred if she had told me when things were bothering her, b/c more likely than not I would have made a concerted effort to see those things changed.