[Akimbo]

I'm having a typing issue. I'll be honest, I don't understand the cognitive functions thing and I don't think I ever will. I mean not that I don't understand it, but I'll never learn it enough to make use of it nor do I find any of it particularly useful. I'm just saying that now because a lot of times when people ask for typing help it's "look at the cognitive functions." No, nope, I won't be doing that. Sorry I really have tried but my eyes start to blur and I could read for hours about that stuff and retain none of it it just doesn't strike any kind of a chord of understanding within me. On a similar note, and I think this is where my hold up is, I find I/E very easy as well as F/T, but in my mind I think the N/S and the J/P blurred into one kind of oversimplified construct where there are basically three types, the impulsive/creative NP, the responsible/rigid SJ, and the somewhere in between regular person who I guess is either N/J or S/P but I don't know how to tell N/J from S/P. That's just my mental shortcut for someone who's not totally an absent-minded professor like me, and not totally anal-retentive either. I realize this is ALL WRONG but I can't make my brain understand it any other way! I've tried and tried to read this stuff, but I can't seem to get a handle on a memorable, meaningful overarching concept for those two letter pairs other than the crappy explanation I just described. So basically what you end up with is any person who is not either NP nor SJ then becomes an NPSJ which I realize is ridiculous and they kind of all cancel each other out and I'm left with getting stuck at ExFx. I can't be the only person who has this problem? Please don't try to give me long and nuanced definitions either, like I said eyes glaze, retain nothing. I'm the kind of person where I have to have conceptual clarity, and to me if a concept can't be explained in fairly simple terms there is either a lack of understanding or a lack of a concept.

Wow maybe that should've been a separate topic. So back to the point ExFx friend, need help typing. Just because she's having some what we'll call opportunities for personal growth but she is actually willing to read and interested in learning about herself and I know when I first discovered my type some of the detailed advice articles I read were extremely helpful for me personally. So I want to point her in the right direction but when I read the four ExFx definitions again and again, they start sounding a lot like each other or maybe they are all a lot like her in different ways.

She is a social butterfly, likes to be and is comfortable as the center of attention, but also doesn't get uncomfortable if she's not in the spot light and she occasionally has quiet moods (these are not generally good moods though). She is somewhat prone to taking advantage of people, but not in an intentional way, more like in a way where she just kind of assumes her needs are so important that people should be willing and eager to bend over backwards for her, but she doesn't use this to the point of abusing anyone, she just expects for example a ride when she wants a ride, or a loan for a few bucks, or for you to hand her that thing that's across the room that is equally far away from you as it is her. She tends to sound pretty demanding to people that don't know her well, "hand me that." But those who know her know she means nothing by it. I should mention here she is gorgeous and I mean really gorgeous, so she kind of has that "beautiful and knows it" vibe. She is also the type that wants what she wants and feels how she feels, and if someone's gotta problem with that she's more than happy to engage in conflict and will not hesitate to go nuclear. Sometimes to the point where it's like wow maybe about 4% of that drama was really necessary but ok. It's never a dull moment. She feels and expresses her feelings very intensely, to the point if something upsets her get ready, and if you aren't the accommodating type (which I am of course) you should probably just stay away until she's in a better mood.
I just realized I'm making her sound awful. As much as she sounds like she's all about her she is shockingly caring and other-oriented. I think she just likes drama in general tbh, it doesn't have to be her drama she will be every bit as passionate about something or someone that upsets me and will literally stop her day to talk to you if you are upset about something or need help with something. If another girl is giving me a hard time it is not unheard of for her to call the girl up herself and let her have it because she knows I won't lol. She will argue with you on facts as well, so she values intellect she's not the airhead type extrovert, and she will be googling to find out who's actually right in a heart beat. She's also very funny and charming. And something else to mention is even though she sounds like an Amazonian conflict queen, she will actually back down and apologize before having conflict with me (a close friend.) And she does truly have a good heart, she will defend the underdog by default and she is loyal to the bone.

As far as everyday life she definitely leans toward the impulsive side. Is creative and artistic. Has had run-ins with the law although not criminal as a lifestyle but she's definitely the rebellious type. For some reason I don't think purely NP I guess because of how perceptive and aware of her surroundings she is. Although now I'm thinking that could be an extrovert trait. I just think of NP as being kind of spacey and she's definitely not lost in a dream like me. She's very neat and tidy, environment and appearance are important to her. But she is also truly an underachiever considering she's extremely intelligent she just really has no career ambition I guess. She's surprisingly more intellectual than you would first guess, not like oops I forgot to eat lunch also breakfast because I read all day like me, but you can give her something to read and she will actually read it unlike most other extroverts I know who's limit is about 1 paragraph if you need to impart more info than that better find a video.

OK I'm so sorry about how wordy this is I really can't help it but if anyone has any input on how to type her or if more info is needed please reply and thank you in advance.

 

[Gilead]

I just realized I'm making her sound awful.

Not at all, she sounds great, but the fact that you would say that tells more about you than her.

Since you don't care for nuanced definitions or taking a looking into the functions; I'll just say this description reminds me of several ESFJs and one ESFP I know. Purely on surface level, of course.

Also you know some pretty weird extroverts.

 

[Akimbo]

Of course the fact that I would worry my definition is unfair or not doing her justice says more about me than her. And I re-read it and yeah I was making her sound kind of like a melodramatic spoiled princess. So I agree with myself making that statement there, surprise surprise! But in actuality she is great.

What's so weird about extroverts being aware of their environment and surroundings? Or you mean the part where they don't wanna read anything > 1 paragraph because that was a little bit of intentional hyperbole but I'm not sure what about them is weird.

Also, I probably wasn't very clear on this point sometimes I ramble and my point gets lost or one point I'm making gets mixed up with another point I'm trying to make, but when I said a don't want nuanced definitions that was in reference to the whole N/S vs. J/P thing, I am still just looking for a very easy to remember and simple way to define those concepts in general. I am all for a nuanced definition of the specific personality I am referencing, I want to get it right.

 

[Akimbo]

Also I should mention I feel like I can rule out ENFP. That's the only one of the four I read and think...nah. Really torn between the other three though.

 

[Drecon]

She sounds ESFP from your description.

This would give her:

Dominant Se - She's impulsive and likes to be in the spotlight. When provoked, she acts out. She's perceptive and aware of her surroundings... the list goes on. Seems spot on for how you described her.
Auxiliary Fi - She know what's important in life and she will always stand up for that. If people disagree, she confronts them. She's also genuinely warm and caring. Those are all Fi traits.

Not only do the functions describe her perfectly, she also seems to fit the ESFP stereotypes. High energy, sensitive, confrontational and kind. According to your description, I'm very certain the person you described is an ESFP.

 

[Gilead]

Of course the fact that I would worry my definition is unfair or not doing her justice says more about me than her. And I re-read it and yeah I was making her sound kind of like a melodramatic spoiled princess. So I agree with myself making that statement there, surprise surprise! But in actuality she is great.

Let's just say there are types that find melodramatic people awful, and then there are types that don't.

Or you mean the part where they don't wanna read anything > 1 paragraph because that was a little bit of intentional hyperbole but I'm not sure what about them is weird.

Regardless of the hyperbole, the idea behind the hyperbole seems to be making assumptions about these extroverts. Unless if they really are like that, in which case they are weird. Are you sure it's not just the what the information age does to human brains?

Also, I probably wasn't very clear on this point sometimes I ramble and my point gets lost or one point I'm making gets mixed up with another point I'm trying to make, but when I said a don't want nuanced definitions that was in reference to the whole N/S vs. J/P thing, I am still just looking for a very easy to remember and simple way to define those concepts in general. I am all for a nuanced definition of the specific personality I am referencing, I want to get it right.

I see, hmm. Whatever you do, I suggest you differentiate between MBTI dichtomies and cognitive functions. They are supposed to align but the two ideas are not entirely compatible mainly due to the assumptions made by MBTI. Confusion is understandable. MBTI really is trying to indicate what a person's type could be so those descriptions lack the nuance, whereas the CF attempt to conceptualize mental mechanisms for typical for each type and allows for more variation within type.

So essentially, we could type your friend as an ESFX based on dichtomies - and then look for more nuance by figuring out the J/P (meaning, is she a perceiving S dominant or a judging F dominant), and that can include a more in-depth look at the function attitudes too.

 

[Gilead]

Auxiliary Fi - She know what's important in life and she will always stand up for that. If people disagree, she confronts them. She's also genuinely warm and caring. Those are all Fi traits.

Btw, Fe defends important values too. None of these things are specific to introverted feeling. Confrontation for example could be Se or Fe or even Te, but it is an attempt at changing what exists outside of yourself (extroversion). Fi is distanced from such and while it tries to preserve subjective ideals it wouldn't confront anything on its own. Also if you'd compare descriptions of Jungian introverted and extroverted feeling types you would notice it is the introvert who is described as cold and detached and while the extrovert is warm and involved. Fi cares for familiar objects to which the subject has a relation to. Fe cares about objects based on a more general notion of their value.

 

[Drecon]

Btw, Fe defends important values too. None of these things are specific to introverted feeling. Confrontation for example could be Se or Fe or even Te, but it is an attempt at changing what exists outside of yourself (extroversion). Fi is distanced from such and while it tries to preserve subjective ideals it wouldn't confront anything on its own. Also if you'd compare descriptions of Jungian introverted and extroverted feeling types you would notice it is the introvert who is described as cold and detached and while the extrovert is warm and involved. Fi cares for familiar objects to which the subject has a relation to. Fe cares about objects based on a more general notion of their value.

Good point on catching that Fi doesn't defend values on its own. It does use Te for that (and yes, sometimes Se too). Fe does defend values, but it tends to defend others' values above its own.

Also, I'd like to think that our understanding of the cognitive functions has grown a bit beyond the original definitions from Jung back in the day. I mean, he thought the whole thing up, but nobody is infallible. He's bound to have been wrong on some things. (not saying that this is one of them, but I just really dislike taking his original work as source material on this. It was a starting point for the theory and we've come a long way since then.

That said, thanks for the clarification on where I went wrong. It's easy to sneak in inaccuracies like that, especially with a theory that is as large and complex as MBTI/cognitive function theory.

 

[Gilead]

Good point on catching that Fi doesn't defend values on its own. It does use Te for that (and yes, sometimes Se too). Fe does defend values, but it tends to defend others' values above its own.

Also, I'd like to think that our understanding of the cognitive functions has grown a bit beyond the original definitions from Jung back in the day. I mean, he thought the whole thing up, but nobody is infallible. He's bound to have been wrong on some things. (not saying that this is one of them, but I just really dislike taking his original work as source material on this. It was a starting point for the theory and we've come a long way since then.

That said, thanks for the clarification on where I went wrong. It's easy to sneak in inaccuracies like that, especially with a theory that is as large and complex as MBTI/cognitive function theory.

Np I agree that Jung isn't infallible but whenever something contradicts his basic distinction between extroversion/introversion (object/subject orientation) it is better not to call that JCF.

Another thing about extroverted feeling - I wouldn't say it prioritizes other's values above the person's own values; the person might not even make the distinction between their own values and the values of other people, but just sees what is "objectively" valuable. But we can always talk about Fe in a thread specifically dedicated to it