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Discussion Starter #21
I agree: The Venn diagram of INFJ and Scorpio seems to have a very high degree of overlap. I'm not into Astrology to the degree of "I need to go to the market today, but first I'd better check my horoscope whether I should"; but I am naturally so Scorpio (just as I'm naturally so INFJ), and so many things (relationships, etc.) fall into place just as Astrology would have it, that it's difficult for me not to give it a lot of credence. Throughout my life, the people I naturally have fallen in with in a special way have always been Cancers. It would be pushing things to say, "Oh, just coincidence." Nope, there's something happening there.
I agree with you there, about not checking the horoscope before, haha! I do like checking it when I'm having inexplicably bad days. I often do find that I've got terrible transits happening in my chart, and knowing that almost helps with accepting and moving on, preparing for things to be better the next day.

And it's amazing, yes. Could be something interesting to look into more - zodiac signs (or birth chart placements, especially) and seeing how they relate to MBTI type, or vice versa.

Cancers and Scorpios....It really is a good mix! Fortunately, I've got a lot of planets in Cancer (including Jupiter!), so that's always helped out. And I have quite a few in Scorpio, as well! Funny how my Sun sign is an Air sign, but I so much more identify with Earths and Waters... :/ If you like Astrology and reading about birth charts (and partners' charts together, and all that), I recommend a site called: astro.com

They've got some lovely insights!

Thanks! It came unlooked for, unexpectedly, a Spring when I thought only Winter was ahead. Same situation of unexpectedness on the other side, too. Yay for us!
Oh this is lovely! That's how you know it was meant to be - just hits suddenly for both!

Quite so. It helps matters when Sensitivity knows that it's more sensitive than the expected norm, rather than just to think "I'm normal . . . everyone is this way . . . so everyone should know what to do and what to avoid," which can lead to explosive situations. When Sensitivity can say, "I'm sensitive in ways a, b, and c, other person has his/her right to be sensitive in ways x, y, and z . . . and both sides have a right not to thoroughly understand the other's preferences," then it ideally leads to just what you mention: grace, love, tact, patience, and absolute trust. It's when immature Sensitivity says, "I'm sensitive in ways a, b, and c, and you need to be exactly the same way and be able to predict my feelings about everything" that everything goes kablooey. A relationship should be complementary, like two dancers in a pas-de-deux, each usually having different postures, different steps, but supporting the other, trusting the other to be there. Immaturity usually thinks that relationships should be "We're both all the same in everything," like synchronized swimming. That attitude doesn't end well, to say the least: Different people can't be the same.
Yes, the latter is rather selfish, isn't it? It's certainly not easier being aware that one is more sensitive, but oh, how it helps! And I love that you refer to it like a dance with each having different roles to fill....How true! I think so many people strive to find "twin souls" or the one who will "complete them", but that kind of total union really doesn't work, as sad as that is. It's all based on our idealism and expectations of the other person, not seeing them as they are. And I'm not begrudging those who do that, because I am very guilty of it myself. It's one of the things I've learned since stepping away from my INFJ partner. I was seeing him as a part of myself, because I loved and trusted him so innately. Obviously that couldn't have worked out well at all. I was expecting him to read my mind at times.

I can't help but think that the innate empathy present in being a writer, and my being of an artistic temperament, help. To "live" the artistry requires being able to set aside self and "become" the other element. Doing this gives one confidence that the Self remains unthreatened even when its Creativity Facility is wholly engaged in Otherness. It's a bit paradoxical: A person is comfortable with vulnerability when, at base, there's assurance of invulnerability. And perhaps Se chimes in with its amiable "Hey! Just go for it and see what happens! Fun!", because it's confident that it can handle whatever happens.
Not at all! I'm also a writer!!! (Perhaps that was to be expected of us, haha.) But I feel just what you mean. To be able to create, and to create something meaningful that will touch a chord with humanity, one has to be able to understand and feel those deeper emotions. And I love the developed "Se"...Goodness, that really only can be positive for these types, eh?

What do you write, may I ask? Have you ever published anything?


Yes, that's it--one just knows.

INFJs are innately dark and cautious, especially (I suppose) 6w5 INFJs such as myself. Se, as above, has helped me get beyond that.
Ah, okay, so yours is Type 6 for the Enneagram? I took it as well and got 6 first, then 9, then 7....I wonder if it's the same. If I'm not totally off here, that means you would be a "Loyalist"? That would make much sense, haha! Very loyal to those you love!

And there's the Scorpio depth of digging beneath and finding complete understanding!

His instincts are just right.

To state the obvious: We always want the best for those we love. Keeps one on one's toes . . . not necessarily a bad thing.
So true, and while it is good to keep each other on our toes so that things don't settle into something too boring for either (although I think I don't actually mind boring - I need security most of all, so boring is fine for me, haha), it's sometimes hard to know where the line is. I think with those fears of his getting set into motion, he began to worry that he felt more for me than I did him, while I was already worrying the same. We didn't talk about it, and thus the fears festered. I know it now! But I do worry that it was only part of the problem. Hence why I hoped to learn as much as possible!

Only, on my part, instinct, passion, and shy self-assurance. I'd guess that when he realized I wasn't a user, wasn't faking it, that broke the chains that held him back. Also, I'm charming. :)

Once people see into each other's heart, they understand the motives, and what would otherwise be threatening personality-imperialism becomes enriching.

We are soooooooo lucky. :heart:
Oh you both are, but you do so deserve it! <3 You obviously take such good care of each other.

And yes, it's very true. It might be sheer idealism, but I think not. I feel this from my INFJ as well. However, I think I am playing the role you did here - I seem to be the one with the instinct, passion, and shy self-assurance (sometimes too shy, I know - and I know he knows it, haha). I do feel that I have to be the one to (re-)earn his trust. He still has mine, even after the hurts. I always leave him little hints and clues in our messages together, and he sometimes (I think when he feels confident that they're geared towards him and his trust) responds in kind. I love when we fall into place like that! It's just hard to know for sure how and when to do it for us. Oh, I do hope we can break through our doubts the way you both have!

Dreamers (of course) have a respect for dreaminess which, even if present in others, or wished for by others, is imperfect in others. That respect is very important. Or, to put it the other way around, dismissiveness of dreaminess is the beginning of the end. If one or the other of the partners can manage to have strong Se moments and partake of non-dream-reality (for dreams have their own kind of grasp on reality, right Freud? [Freud nods]), it keeps the relationship from getting messed up via ignoring practicalities. (This goes for INFJ/ENFP relationships, too, by the way.)
Dismissiveness is so cold and entails a deep lack of respect, I feel. Or disdain. You're absolutely right. If such a thing exists, the relationship is doomed to Hell. Even with my INFJ guy....I said it before, but I see the child side of him come out quite a bit, especially when he's feeling upset or frustrated. I even often saw this child in his eyes, as if he was looking out on the world from within. I know who that is - that's the child he didn't get to live growing up because of his abuse. So while I know this tends to make him more reckless (well, no, not really - his Scorpio nature keeps him on track for the most part) or rather more childish, I also know and respect that this is a side he needs to live out. I almost want to encourage it. But what I tried to do instead, and I think this helped him, was just let him be. So when he wanted - no, needed - to do or enjoy things that others might consider childish or silly, I told him he should. I told him to treat himself. I even used to indulge him by buying things related to those childish-seeming hobbies, but I actually don't know how much he liked this, as he never said outwardly and it was hard to gauge his reaction. I eventually stopped. Nevertheless, I do know he appreciated the quiet support of "you do what you love, and don't fear judgement". It's really not so hard to do for those we really love, so absolutely....if people are dismissing another's dreams or hobbies or whichever....Ooh, that's bound to get ugly! And rightly so!


Please, folks, don't vomit: But my guy is an endless cornucopia of wonderful.
<3

I didn't see any vomit! Please do keep it coming, hahaha!


It comes down ultimately to insecurity: Mr. Competition might be better than I am! I'll lose everything! Destroy!" :exterminate:

See above. Insecurity about self, not about you. As the INFJ matures, he can get past this. It can become a feeling of pride that one has such a wonderful prize that others are drawn to him/her.
It's alarming to me, really, though it shouldn't be, as I also feel insecurity often. I often feel he deserves far better than me and that I would be impossibly lucky to call him my own. I would say he is far more attractive than me too (he is), though I do modeling and acting like he does. (I'm not really a model, for the record. I do it because it enhances the acting work and nothing more. Heh.)

I guess we both need to learn a bit more self-love and self-confidence. But yes, I was amazed by how he went off on his best friend because of even perceived flirting coming from him! On the one hand, it was endearing he cared so much. On the other, I wished he could just know and trust he didn't have to worry, that my eyes were only for him.

Well, golly, [blush] don't make me sit here complimenting myself. ;-) Maybe it's that I have some modest tincture of honesty, straightforwardness, insight, sensitivity, respect . . . [rambles on and on, because in truth odinthor is kind of conceited].

Ni.

Also, I'm hot.
Oh go on, go on!

I can see it!


In truth, I can only say the vague, "It's the magic . . . the magic . . . ", on either side. It's the vibe connection.

Also, he's hottttt.
As the INFP partner in an INFP/INFJ pairing, I would have said the same. Sheer magic. The vibe connection. The companionable silences. The presence of very real love and acceptance. Beautiful, knowing eyes that can read and understand without need for words. Awareness of everyone and everything around him and an eagerness (when not in competitive mode, of course, mwahaha) to take care of those around him....He's got so much good. He can be quite stubborn, a bit jealous of my friends (which I think is not terrible and can be resolved - it doesn't dominate him), and he knows just how to hurt if he feels he's been hurt and the retaliation is warranted, but good God, I can't think of anything truly bad about him. And I do miss him so much...Just want to hold him close.

Radio-ly speaking: He sends out the right signal, I usually manage to tune in.
Ooh, okay! I love the imagery here.
To be honest, I often worry if I'm sending out the right signals. You know us INFPs....we often can't gather our own thoughts and make them coherent even in our own minds. Is there anything in particular that he does/says/puts out the vibe of that makes it easier for you? This is something I am still struggling with with my INFJ. Every time I think we're on a smooth course, I suddenly get the sense that he's unsure or thrown off by something I've said or done. I know my communication needs work outside of writing (eh, even within it!), so I wonder if there is something I could focus on or lean towards to improve it. Make it clearer to an INFJ partner without creating doubts. Apologies - I know it's a tough question!

My shortcomings are familiar to me . . . and always my first resort through their familiarity.
Okay - very insightful!

I understand the dark moments. I forget if I posted this, or if I redacted it out; but, for either INFP or INFJ, sometimes the other has to not begrudge the person going into his/her dark dark cave to reflect or feel the emotion thoroughly--it's a kind of cleansing process or coming-to-a-clearer-understanding-of-self process--what the other needs to do, though, is wait patiently at the mouth of the cave, make sure the into-the-cave person can see that one is patiently and supportingly there awaiting the return, and not be intrusive. And what the cave-person needs to do upon return is to express what needs to be expressed. Obviously, both sides trusting the other facilitates the whole thing.
Another beautiful analogy, and how clearly presented! Right, the trust is key there. But oooh, I'm gushing (hello, idealism and love!!) at the thought of a relationship that protects each of its members with such assurance, grace, and love. It's wonderful to know that such a thing exists outside of the realm of dreams! That we petty humans are capable of it. ;)

Patience and trust will guide one through any minefields. Well, Love too. ;-)

Argument? What's an argument? (Even with our deep emotions, we have a very calm relationship.)
:heart: :heart: :heart:

I can see that it could work for some. For me, that time of reflection would feel oppressive. I generally know exactly how I feel about something immediately (Ni is very quick with its messages in pressing circumstances), and that normally doesn't change with the passage of time (not sure if that's INFJ or just me). But I respect that others can need to take time to reflect . . . and wouldn't resent the wait . . . just anxious to get things moving along as soon as possible . . . But this situation hasn't come up with my guy.
I do understand what you mean, though. Especially the feeling of oppression. It feels better to get it sorted right away, right? Do you feel like either of you could be too emotional to talk in the moment, though? Although with the two of you, who obviously care about each other so much, maybe not....I always worry that I can't put my thoughts together the way I need to in the moment, and that I might react too emotionally. I'd actually much prefer to sort things out ASAP as well. I don't like letting them or the negative feelings related to the situation sit. It's too awkward and upsetting. But I keep trying to imagine how it would feel in the heat of a very hot moment! (And unfortunately, not of that kind, hahaha!)

Thanks so much! I can very much tap into what your INFJ feels for you. You're aware of what needs to be attended to, and you care enough to want to understand it all more and more. It's going to go very well. Just keep thinking: Patience, Trust, Understanding, Love. Especially the "Love" part...
Oh thank you, thank you...!! Is that because of my incessant rambling about this, that, and the other? Hahaha!

May I ask you one last question? (I could go on for forever, so I'll try to keep this as the last.)

Do you ever feel like there could be a situation where your INFP partner, whether now or even before (when you were first getting to know each other), might have been too suffocating in terms of how he showed he loved you? This is another fear of mine. I don't want to play hard to get. I'm not interested in games like that. However, my INFJ is only in his mid-20's and though very mature for his age, is surely also eager for a bit more excitement in his relationships. While I used to pour affection onto him, and he'd soak it up and always return it in the ways he could (not always necessarily enough for me, but I understood he was doing what he could), I felt that we were getting very comfortable in our routine. This was actually fine for me, but I don't know if it was for him, and I started to worry that maybe I was suffocating him with all the love. I mean, we do have a Jupiter-Sun, Neptune-Sun connection. It's unavoidable, perhaps, with those three in play, hahaha. Especially as I am the Jupiter and Neptune, and he the Sun. (Neptune is going to devote heaps of love, patience, sympathy, and idealism on the Sun. Jupiter is going to want to spoil him.)

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know! This is one of my biggest issues approaching him now. While I'd love to go back to the full-blown love and affection style of before, I also know that that style was part of an overarching style that didn't work out. I'm trying to put all the pieces together to work out what needs change and what doesn't.

Thank you always for your charming, sensitive, and helpful replies!! :heart:
 

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[...]

Yes, the latter is rather selfish, isn't it? It's certainly not easier being aware that one is more sensitive, but oh, how it helps! And I love that you refer to it like a dance with each having different roles to fill....How true! I think so many people strive to find "twin souls" or the one who will "complete them", but that kind of total union really doesn't work, as sad as that is. It's all based on our idealism and expectations of the other person, not seeing them as they are. And I'm not begrudging those who do that, because I am very guilty of it myself. It's one of the things I've learned since stepping away from my INFJ partner. I was seeing him as a part of myself, because I loved and trusted him so innately. Obviously that couldn't have worked out well at all. I was expecting him to read my mind at times.
The way I look at it is, it's hard enough for us to read our own minds!

With my closest friends and intimates, I have always liked to think of the dynamics of the relationship as if the other person in the relationship were my local guide through the sights and adventures of his/her own foreign land. It seems strange to me that people would want to be tourists within themselves.

Not at all! I'm also a writer!!!
My sympathies! ;-)

(Perhaps that was to be expected of us, haha.) But I feel just what you mean. To be able to create, and to create something meaningful that will touch a chord with humanity, one has to be able to understand and feel those deeper emotions. And I love the developed "Se"...Goodness, that really only can be positive for these types, eh?

What do you write, may I ask? Have you ever published anything?
Here's the tale in short: I thought that the best way to become an established writer would be to write "something useful," even though my main interests have always been fiction/play-writing/poetry/ whimsical essays. I consequently wrote a non-fiction tome, which was published by the first publisher it was offered to. I then became a prisoner of that subject, and half a dozen (published) books exploring the same subject ensued. To refresh myself, I then turned to another non-fiction subject, and two more such (published) books ensued (and I'm engaged on the third such). Will I ever get back to my real goal? Such is to be hoped. But, for poetry, I limp along posting some here at PerC.

Ah, okay, so yours is Type 6 for the Enneagram?
Insecurity and paranoia. It's what all the really kool kats do! But Se moderates the extremes of this. Se says, impatiently, "Oh, stop worrying, get real, and have some fun!"

I took it as well and got 6 first, then 9, then 7....I wonder if it's the same. If I'm not totally off here, that means you would be a "Loyalist"? That would make much sense, haha! Very loyal to those you love!
Yes. "Loyal" is one of the prettier sides of insecurity.

And there's the Scorpio depth of digging beneath and finding complete understanding!
Scorpios are all



So true, and while it is good to keep each other on our toes so that things don't settle into something too boring for either (although I think I don't actually mind boring - I need security most of all, so boring is fine for me, haha), it's sometimes hard to know where the line is.
Yes, it's a good candidate for the hardest thing of all. When does caring and loving attentiveness become controlling and intrusiveness? That's why a person need to be on one's toes always gauging the situation.

I think with those fears of his getting set into motion, he began to worry that he felt more for me than I did him, while I was already worrying the same. We didn't talk about it, and thus the fears festered. I know it now! But I do worry that it was only part of the problem. Hence why I hoped to learn as much as possible!
Well done! If only others would strive to look outwards and learn rather than to turn inwards and stoke resentfulness!

Oh you both are, but you do so deserve it! <3 You obviously take such good care of each other.
We were made for each other. Unfortunately, it took fifty years for us to find each other. Sigh.

And yes, it's very true. It might be sheer idealism, but I think not. I feel this from my INFJ as well. However, I think I am playing the role you did here - I seem to be the one with the instinct, passion, and shy self-assurance (sometimes too shy, I know - and I know he knows it, haha).
Yes, well observed. With my strong Se, I'm not to be taken as being representative of the usual INFJ. [ponders] I wonder if it's my strong Se which makes me partial to INFPs (and, formerly, ENFPs)...?

I do feel that I have to be the one to (re-)earn his trust.
Excuse me if I've overlooked things; but how exactly was the trust lost?

He still has mine, even after the hurts. I always leave him little hints and clues in our messages together, and he sometimes (I think when he feels confident that they're geared towards him and his trust) responds in kind.
Sounds like me!

I love when we fall into place like that! It's just hard to know for sure how and when to do it for us. Oh, I do hope we can break through our doubts the way you both have!
My navigation was "steady as she goes." I think it was my dependability which turned the tide. Well, of course, my insight, talent, charm, good luck, and funny stories too. And [spends half an hour listing his own dubious attributes]. Probably other things too that I forget at the moment. Oh, yeah--like Humility.

Dismissiveness is so cold and entails a deep lack of respect, I feel. Or disdain.
Narrow-mindedness, too. Everything has some precious gem to offer. If one can't see it, one shouldn't be dismissive . . . one should look within one's self and ask "What is lacking in me that I can't see the miracle here?"

You're absolutely right. If such a thing exists, the relationship is doomed to Hell. Even with my INFJ guy....I said it before, but I see the child side of him come out quite a bit, especially when he's feeling upset or frustrated. I even often saw this child in his eyes, as if he was looking out on the world from within. I know who that is - that's the child he didn't get to live growing up because of his abuse. So while I know this tends to make him more reckless (well, no, not really - his Scorpio nature keeps him on track for the most part) or rather more childish, I also know and respect that this is a side he needs to live out.
Bless you!

I almost want to encourage it. But what I tried to do instead, and I think this helped him, was just let him be. So when he wanted - no, needed - to do or enjoy things that others might consider childish or silly, I told him he should. I told him to treat himself. I even used to indulge him by buying things related to those childish-seeming hobbies, but I actually don't know how much he liked this, as he never said outwardly and it was hard to gauge his reaction. I eventually stopped. Nevertheless, I do know he appreciated the quiet support of "you do what you love, and don't fear judgement". It's really not so hard to do for those we really love, so absolutely....if people are dismissing another's dreams or hobbies or whichever....Ooh, that's bound to get ugly! And rightly so!
My interest in Horticulture teaches me a lot about everything. It's crazy to plant and nurture a seed and expect it to grow into something other than what it is. But, in dating, people harvest Zinnia seeds, and then complain that they don't grow into Marigolds.

[...]

It's alarming to me, really, though it shouldn't be, as I also feel insecurity often. I often feel he deserves far better than me and that I would be impossibly lucky to call him my own.
Exactly the way I feel with my guy. But--and this is important--that's what makes me want to live up to my highest potentialities. I want to deserve him in my view as well as in his. I do give myself points for trying. ;-)

I would say he is far more attractive than me too (he is), though I do modeling and acting like he does. (I'm not really a model, for the record. I do it because it enhances the acting work and nothing more. Heh.)
There's a coincidence: My guy has done acting and (a little) modeling. Perhaps needless to say, I'm very very proud of his diverse accomplishments and attributes.

I guess we both need to learn a bit more self-love and self-confidence. But yes, I was amazed by how he went off on his best friend because of even perceived flirting coming from him! On the one hand, it was endearing he cared so much. On the other, I wished he could just know and trust he didn't have to worry, that my eyes were only for him.
Insecurity is an evil demon which is hard to exorcise, and it's pretty much something the insecure person has to accomplish on his/her own. All the other person can really do is to be understanding and try to keep from inadvertently feeding the insecurity. Another thing to file under "Nobody said Life was easy."

[...]

As the INFP partner in an INFP/INFJ pairing, I would have said the same. Sheer magic. The vibe connection. The companionable silences. The presence of very real love and acceptance. Beautiful, knowing eyes that can read and understand without need for words. Awareness of everyone and everything around him and an eagerness (when not in competitive mode, of course, mwahaha) to take care of those around him....He's got so much good. He can be quite stubborn, a bit jealous of my friends (which I think is not terrible and can be resolved - it doesn't dominate him), and he knows just how to hurt if he feels he's been hurt and the retaliation is warranted, but good God, I can't think of anything truly bad about him. And I do miss him so much...Just want to hold him close.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes (etc.)!

Ooh, okay! I love the imagery here.
To be honest, I often worry if I'm sending out the right signals. You know us INFPs....we often can't gather our own thoughts and make them coherent even in our own minds.
This adds to the delightful mystery. Meanwhile, INFJs are cryptic (to others) even though we generally understand ourselves with our sort of clarity. But my impression is that our INFJ inner understanding is personally understood via personal hieroglyphics that are often hard to translate into other-person language. Fun. :-(

Is there anything in particular that he does/says/puts out the vibe of that makes it easier for you?
He seems to sense, unprompted, where my feelings and thoughts are at any given time, and so says or somehow addresses just the right thing. Spontaneous insight. An INFJ would get that via Ni, I'm pretty sure; I'm not sure what function facilitates that for the INFP. What would you think?

This is something I am still struggling with with my INFJ. Every time I think we're on a smooth course, I suddenly get the sense that he's unsure or thrown off by something I've said or done.
His Ni sent him a message of the nature of, "Hm! What she just said/did is highly ambiguous. Proceed with caution!" Now, the thing to remember about Ni--at least, as I experience Ni--is that Ni never explains anything. Ni just issues stark suggestions and mandates. So if you'd ask him about it, he'd likely just look at you blankly, because he wouldn't know how to explain it. And the way out of the situation is only to continue doing what you yourself feel is you being you, and let Ni at length content itself that, in reality, everything's OK. In other words, patience rather than reactivity. Yes, I know it's hard not to do something to address a perceived problem . . . but the doing something has a high likelihood of making things worse. In other words, be mellow.

I know my communication needs work outside of writing (eh, even within it!), so I wonder if there is something I could focus on or lean towards to improve it. Make it clearer to an INFJ partner without creating doubts. Apologies - I know it's a tough question!
About all I can say is, Never startle an INFJ. It makes us sound the alarm and put everything under martial law. (Of course, maybe other INFJs will dispute every jot and tittle of what I'm saying; but what I'm telling you derives from what I've observed in myself and in other INFJs.)

[...]

Another beautiful analogy, and how clearly presented! Right, the trust is key there. But oooh, I'm gushing (hello, idealism and love!!) at the thought of a relationship that protects each of its members with such assurance, grace, and love. It's wonderful to know that such a thing exists outside of the realm of dreams! That we petty humans are capable of it. ;)
It can happen and work if those concerned let it.

I do understand what you mean, though. Especially the feeling of oppression. It feels better to get it sorted right away, right?
Yep.

Do you feel like either of you could be too emotional to talk in the moment, though?
I can see that such could happen in an INFJ/INFP relationship. But me, I'm stoic in the moment; the emotion comes later in reflection, so it's best to handle things during my stoic period. My long experience with ENFPs seems to indicate that they are tendentially emotional in the moment; and perhaps INFPs share in this. And so, what to do if one side is one way and the other another? Patience, forbearance, love . . .

Although with the two of you, who obviously care about each other so much, maybe not....I always worry that I can't put my thoughts together the way I need to in the moment, and that I might react too emotionally. I'd actually much prefer to sort things out ASAP as well. I don't like letting them or the negative feelings related to the situation sit. It's too awkward and upsetting. But I keep trying to imagine how it would feel in the heat of a very hot moment! (And unfortunately, not of that kind, hahaha!)
My guy is very good about saying what needs to be said when there is a pressing situation of dubiety. I'm not sure if this is standard INFP or a special personal attribute of his. Between my Ni looking into its crystal ball and issuing wise (if unexplained) directives and his insight and saying quickly what needs to be said, any clouds on the horizon are very quickly dispersed. It's quite nice. Much recommended! ;-)

Oh thank you, thank you...!! Is that because of my incessant rambling about this, that, and the other? Hahaha!

May I ask you one last question? (I could go on for forever, so I'll try to keep this as the last.)

Do you ever feel like there could be a situation where your INFP partner, whether now or even before (when you were first getting to know each other), might have been too suffocating in terms of how he showed he loved you?
I personally am voracious, so between that and his good sense, it would be difficult for that to happen. I can't imagine myself thinking or saying, "Ye gods! Would you effing leave me alone for a minute?!?!?!???" My attitude is, "Bring it on!" If you're sensitive to his sensitivites, this wouldn't come up for you either.

This is another fear of mine. I don't want to play hard to get.
Bless you. "Hard to get" has always been, for me, a big big turn-off. I would always assume the person has, in his or her wisdom, decided that it wouldn't work out between us, and so would shrug and move on quickly to my next victim candidate.

I'm not interested in games like that. However, my INFJ is only in his mid-20's and though very mature for his age, is surely also eager for a bit more excitement in his relationships.
Wait a minute. "Surely" because you know, or "surely" because you're making an assumption? INFJs are not necessarily ever looking for more excitement.

While I used to pour affection onto him, and he'd soak it up and always return it in the ways he could (not always necessarily enough for me, but I understood he was doing what he could), I felt that we were getting very comfortable in our routine. This was actually fine for me, but I don't know if it was for him, and I started to worry that maybe I was suffocating him with all the love. I mean, we do have a Jupiter-Sun, Neptune-Sun connection. It's unavoidable, perhaps, with those three in play, hahaha. Especially as I am the Jupiter and Neptune, and he the Sun. (Neptune is going to devote heaps of love, patience, sympathy, and idealism on the Sun. Jupiter is going to want to spoil him.)
If you were suffocating him, he'd find ways to put you off and/or let you know.

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know! This is one of my biggest issues approaching him now. While I'd love to go back to the full-blown love and affection style of before, I also know that that style was part of an overarching style that didn't work out. I'm trying to put all the pieces together to work out what needs change and what doesn't.
It's hard to address without having examples of exactly how he responded to one thing or another. Are you suspecting his feelings from how you would possibly feel in his situation, or has he done indubitable off-putting?

Thank you always for your charming, sensitive, and helpful replies!! :heart:
You make it a great pleasure!
 

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My relationship was INFJ female / INFP male, and we were younger than you when we met, but I noticed quite a few similarities, @DTsuDTsu.

  • both artists, check
  • relationship did stint as a bizarre half-relationship for a time, check
  • insta-vibes, insta-trust, feelings of home and safety, “beautiful entity,” check. (And incidentally a sign that the family of origin issues and infant attachment patterns have been activated.)
  • the love that comes from friendship, check
  • first person you really want to have sex with, check
  • abused as children, check
  • seemed he was feeling the same way, check
  • and yet the girl/woman always having to slow down for the boy/man, check
  • demisexual, check
  • strong connection feels like something unworldly, supra-natural, check
  • gut certainty that this is the person you want to spend your life with, check
  • “torture, but beautifully so,” check, (I remember a time when phrases like this spooled through my head almost continuously.)
  • child comes out when he’s upset, check. (You can count on seeing more and more of this child in a long term relationship.)
  • wanting him to be able to live out whatever he needs, even when that involves actions that give you pain.
  • age difference with the woman the elder (two years), check
I’m starting to think Marvin, Odinthor, and I are the INFJ subforum Goldilockses from The Story of Goldilocks and the Three INFPs.

"Marvin’s INFP was too hot.
Paper Shade’s INFP was too hot-and-cold.
But odinthor’s INFP was juuuust right!"

I’m so happy for you odinthor, and I sincerely wish DTsuDTsu the same luck with her lucky INFJ. :proud:

Just out of curiosity, it would be quite interesting to hear of a relationship of male INFP and female INFJ. Ni looks into his crystal ball and tells me the mystical factor would be very high under those circumstances. OK, Ni, sure, whatever you say.
Mystical factor? Whoo, boy, yes, though maybe not quite in the way you mean.
Here is a picture of us twenty-one years ago:
 

Here is a picture of us twenty years later:
 

Or maybe . . .
 

. . . with me as the tin soldier.

For the record, we are Capricorn 5w4 (me) and Virgo 4w? (he).
 
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"Marvin’s INFP was too hot.
Paper Shade’s INFP was too hot-and-cold.
But odinthor’s INFP was juuuust right!"
Marvin likes them hot but can't handle the heat :sad:

Did you stay together for 20 years?
 

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Doer, thank you for the reply!

I could imagine - I keep hearing this is a big one for INFP/INFJ. I did take the test though, and I was told 6, 9, and 7 were my top three. I guess 6 (Loyalist) would be the top of all? I wonder if this is accurate. I do tend to feel, though, that my loyalty surpasses my need for individuality. In fact, there are even points where I feel I'd rather be "normal" and feel like I fit in than feel like a total oddball. Don't get me wrong - there are days I love feeling "unique" and having a view of the world that seems very different from those around me. But at times it's quite lonesome, and I'm willing to bet my need for security and support from people I love might indeed trump the need to be special that comes from 4. (I know, I'm putting them in such ridiculous layman's terms, hahaha.)

Do you have a particular site I could go to to take the test! I used one online, but the one here on the forum doesn't work for me for some reason... :(

Type 5 - that's excellent! How do you think that's changed you as an INFJ, if in any way? You must be a great asset to the Thinkers group!
Interesting, it is always interesting to see the correlation between MBTI and Enneagram, specially the not so common ones. I'm not Enneagram expert, and the test that I know aren't so good, but check out https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-priebe/2016/01/mbti-and-the-enneagram-2/16/ , it might be helpful, it was accurate for me, I do have extremely high Ni and Ti.

Type 5 - that's excellent! How do you think that's changed you as an INFJ, if in any way? You must be a great asset to the Thinkers group!
hmmm, that's an interesting question, would I be more balanced being INTJ/INTP-Type 5 or INFJ-Type 4, as being an intruder to the thinking group, nah, let's shake things up and annoy the NT guys :ninja:
 

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Marvin likes them hot but can't handle the heat :sad:
Asbestos heart cosy for Marvin? :unsure:

Hot as I think of it is a bit equivocal, though. There are warm hearts. There is fiery passion. There is burning enthusiasm, and there is burning shame. There are incendiary tempers. Not all necessarily reside in the same INFP. (Mine was hot in the last three ways only.) Do all of those kinds of heat burn you?

Did you stay together for 20 years?
 
Maybe a bit more. We'd known each other for 23 years when he moved out. Been married for 18. "Together" started somewhere in between.
 
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Asbestos heart cosy for Marvin? :unsure:

Hot as I think of it is a bit equivocal, though. There are warm hearts. There is fiery passion. There is burning enthusiasm, and there is burning shame. There are incendiary tempers. Not all necessarily reside in the same INFP. (Mine was hot in the last three ways only.) Do all of those kinds of heat burn you?
I suppose I don't know :-/

 


Maybe a bit more. We'd known each other for 23 years when he moved out. Been married for 18. "Together" started somewhere in between.
Was the end bad? Dramatic? I think you've said before... Can't recall.
 

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I suppose I don't know :-

 




Was the end bad? Dramatic? I think you've said before... Can't recall.
Dance of the seven spoiler veils:

 
Ha, ha. No I haven't said. If I'd said, you'd definitely remember.
 
I'd actually like to to have it generally known. It is the most contextualizing thing about me, and I know how much I appreciate having context for others. The problem is that the end was not only bad, it was (and is) bad in such an outsized, flamboyant way thanks to INFP's powers of repression/suppression--layers of bad piled upon outrageous upon absurd upon bad upon outrageous and etc., that it hasn't produced the response I would have expected in the people who've learned about it so far. -Which was sympathy, and the kind of officious, fascinated gossipy-ness someone else's drama usually brings out in people.

Instead, so far, as soon as anyone has learned what happened to my relationship (mostly family, but still) I become a leper of misfortune; nobody talks about me, no one talks to me. I'd thought the drama would be irresistible--to my drama-addled family especially--so the awkward, repressive silence was quite a surprise. Even weirder, the black humor of the twists and turns of the tale seems not to come through to others at all, even though it was there for me even as I was living them.

My therapist offered that people like drama when it is something can imagine what they would do if it happened to them. I guess I am living unimaginable? Anyhow, it's made me stop trusting the urge to just put my story out there.
 
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Marv, develop your Se and . . . you'll see . . . you'll see . . .
That's what I do all day every day. Ice cream is Se - it's tangible, it attacks your Se-nses...

 

Ha, ha. No I haven't said. If I'd said, you'd definitely remember. I'd actually like to to have it generally known. It is the most contextualizing thing about me, and I know how much I appreciate having context for others. The problem is that the end was not only bad, it was (and is) bad in such an outsized, flamboyant way thanks to INFP's powers of repression/suppression--layers of bad piled upon outrageous upon absurd upon bad upon outrageous and etc., that it hasn't produced the response I would have expected in the people who've learned about it so far. -Which was sympathy, and the kind of officious, fascinated gossipy-ness someone else's drama usually brings out in people.

Instead, so far, as soon as anyone has learned what happened to my relationship (mostly family, but still) I become a leper of misfortune; nobody talks about me, no one talks to me. I'd thought the drama would be irresistible--to my drama-addled family especially--so the awkward, repressive silence was quite a surprise. Even weirder, the black humor of the twists and turns of the tale seems not to come through to others at all, even though it was there for me even as I was living them.

My therapist offered that people like drama when it is something can imagine what they would do if it happened to them. I guess I am living unimaginable? Anyhow, it's made me stop trusting the urge to just put my story out there.
:sad: I wish there was something to learn from this. Do you think there is?

 

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Dance of the seven spoiler veils:

 
Ha, ha. No I haven't said. If I'd said, you'd definitely remember.
 
I'd actually like to to have it generally known. It is the most contextualizing thing about me, and I know how much I appreciate having context for others. The problem is that the end was not only bad, it was (and is) bad in such an outsized, flamboyant way thanks to INFP's powers of repression/suppression--layers of bad piled upon outrageous upon absurd upon bad upon outrageous and etc., that it hasn't produced the response I would have expected in the people who've learned about it so far. -Which was sympathy, and the kind of officious, fascinated gossipy-ness someone else's drama usually brings out in people.

Instead, so far, as soon as anyone has learned what happened to my relationship (mostly family, but still) I become a leper of misfortune; nobody talks about me, no one talks to me. I'd thought the drama would be irresistible--to my drama-addled family especially--so the awkward, repressive silence was quite a surprise. Even weirder, the black humor of the twists and turns of the tale seems not to come through to others at all, even though it was there for me even as I was living them.

My therapist offered that people like drama when it is something can imagine what they would do if it happened to them. I guess I am living unimaginable? Anyhow, it's made me stop trusting the urge to just put my story out there.
Veil 2 is on the floor? It's intriguing. I think going through something like that, I can really understand you on wanting to feel contextualized. My good friend is a INFJ female with INFP male. He actually drives me crazy. I get so frustrated with him, I want to just mentally shake him. His faults are the same faults as my husband but like 10x worse. So for sure he triggers me. lol. I'm quite horrified for my INFJ friend most of the time, but.... this is just one relationship. They do have kids, by the way, and it's not good.

With my INFP sister and her INFJ, I'd rather shake her. Get a clue, this guy is devoted and the best you've ever been with. Hmm... I guess the INFJs have my sympathy in both cases. But I don't know any other INFP-INFJ relationships. These two INFJs are the only two INFJs who I know in real life who are in relationships, actually. The other 2 INFJ females who I know are single.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
My relationship was INFJ female / INFP male, and we were younger than you when we met, but I noticed quite a few similarities, @DTsuDTsu.

  • both artists, check
  • relationship did stint as a bizarre half-relationship for a time, check
  • insta-vibes, insta-trust, feelings of home and safety, “beautiful entity,” check. (And incidentally a sign that the family of origin issues and infant attachment patterns have been activated.)
  • the love that comes from friendship, check
  • first person you really want to have sex with, check
  • abused as children, check
  • seemed he was feeling the same way, check
  • and yet the girl/woman always having to slow down for the boy/man, check
  • demisexual, check
  • strong connection feels like something unworldly, supra-natural, check
  • gut certainty that this is the person you want to spend your life with, check
  • “torture, but beautifully so,” check, (I remember a time when phrases like this spooled through my head almost continuously.)
  • child comes out when he’s upset, check. (You can count on seeing more and more of this child in a long term relationship.)
  • wanting him to be able to live out whatever he needs, even when that involves actions that give you pain.
  • age difference with the woman the elder (two years), check
I’m starting to think Marvin, Odinthor, and I are the INFJ subforum Goldilockses from The Story of Goldilocks and the Three INFPs.

"Marvin’s INFP was too hot.
Paper Shade’s INFP was too hot-and-cold.
But odinthor’s INFP was juuuust right!"

I’m so happy for you odinthor, and I sincerely wish DTsuDTsu the same luck with her lucky INFJ. :proud:



Mystical factor? Whoo, boy, yes, though maybe not quite in the way you mean.
Here is a picture of us twenty-one years ago:

Here is a picture of us twenty years later:

Or maybe . . .

. . . with me as the tin soldier.

For the record, we are Capricorn 5w4 (me) and Virgo 4w? (he).
What an amazing post! I had a great laugh, hahaha! Thank you so much for sharing all these thoughts.

That list at the top is a great indication of an INFJ/INFP relationship, I think. Also, what is it with the INFJ/INFP relationships and the women being older? Of the few pairings I know, all three of them are this way, with the age gap varying just a bit...I wonder if something about the pairing makes it more acceptable than society would paint it to be...(Still so much stigma, I know.) The maturity factor, perhaps? I wonder.

About the "child coming out" bit...Yes, for sure. :( Even in the last year alone, that child came out often. He'd usually go off on his own to tend to it, do things others might see as "childish". Nothing super harmful, if not a bit expensive, hahaha. Like, he'd never go drinking or anything like that. I firmly believe others should be allowed to do what they need to to heal and grow, so I would never ever challenge him about that. I try to have patience with it (which usually isn't hard, as I know who that is and where it's coming from), and I hope it would be enough in the long, long-term!

Oh goodness, I'm just so amazed that someone's had a similar experience, although I'm so sorry it didn't work out.

In the end, what would you say was the biggest thing that made you step away?

I mean, aside from being the poor tin soldier and burning up in flames while Mr. INFP ex.....dances? Is he dancing there!? And is he doing it obliviously!? Good lord! Hahaha!

Again, thanks for a great post! (And Capricorn, Virgo!!! WOW! (Sorry, I do love these two so much.) And ah! He's got that 4 type!!)

That Goldilocks analogy...... :heart:
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Interesting, it is always interesting to see the correlation between MBTI and Enneagram, specially the not so common ones. I'm not Enneagram expert, and the test that I know aren't so good, but check out https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-priebe/2016/01/mbti-and-the-enneagram-2/16/ , it might be helpful, it was accurate for me, I do have extremely high Ni and Ti.

hmmm, that's an interesting question, would I be more balanced being INTJ/INTP-Type 5 or INFJ-Type 4, as being an intruder to the thinking group, nah, let's shake things up and annoy the NT guys :ninja:
Thank you so much for the URL! I did check it out, and ended up leading me to some online versions of the test. Took it again, and while I did get 4 one time, I got 6 again twice, and even 2! Or was it a 6w2? I need to double check that, hahaha. I can absolutely see many of the associations of the 4 type within me, but it doesn't seem to describe my identity as a whole. That need for security and support of loved ones (so indeed, 6) does ring a lot truer. If I find a good online test version, I'll let you know! I wish I knew my INFJ gent's type...Somehow I can't see him being a 4 either...Or maybe it's the fear in the back of my mind dictating that. ;) :p

And haha! Well, you'll certain keep them on their toes! :tongue:

Asbestos heart cosy for Marvin? :unsure:

Hot as I think of it is a bit equivocal, though. There are warm hearts. There is fiery passion. There is burning enthusiasm, and there is burning shame. There are incendiary tempers. Not all necessarily reside in the same INFP. (Mine was hot in the last three ways only.) Do all of those kinds of heat burn you?

 
Maybe a bit more. We'd known each other for 23 years when he moved out. Been married for 18. "Together" started somewhere in between.
Good lord, that must have been tough. What a mix to deal with! Especially for such a long time...
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Dance of the seven spoiler veils:

 
Ha, ha. No I haven't said. If I'd said, you'd definitely remember.
 
I'd actually like to to have it generally known. It is the most contextualizing thing about me, and I know how much I appreciate having context for others. The problem is that the end was not only bad, it was (and is) bad in such an outsized, flamboyant way thanks to INFP's powers of repression/suppression--layers of bad piled upon outrageous upon absurd upon bad upon outrageous and etc., that it hasn't produced the response I would have expected in the people who've learned about it so far. -Which was sympathy, and the kind of officious, fascinated gossipy-ness someone else's drama usually brings out in people.

Instead, so far, as soon as anyone has learned what happened to my relationship (mostly family, but still) I become a leper of misfortune; nobody talks about me, no one talks to me. I'd thought the drama would be irresistible--to my drama-addled family especially--so the awkward, repressive silence was quite a surprise. Even weirder, the black humor of the twists and turns of the tale seems not to come through to others at all, even though it was there for me even as I was living them.

My therapist offered that people like drama when it is something can imagine what they would do if it happened to them. I guess I am living unimaginable? Anyhow, it's made me stop trusting the urge to just put my story out there.
I agree with your therapist...Well, first of all, I'm so sorry that you've had such crazy misfortune and are alone in it. I'm so sorry...But I understand what your therapist means, in a way. It's like, if people can't imagine it, they don't want to believe it could happen. And sometimes, when things are seemingly "too extreme", they feel like it's impossible.

My own tale of "woe" or "whoa":
 
I remember a point in my life not too long ago where everything was going wrong. My grandmother passed away and I couldn't be with her (though I'd promised I would). Then both of my jobs started falling apart at the seams. One because of poor management and the company going bankrupt, and one because a client (who it turned out had been jealous of me, as stupid and petty as that was) had complained. (Took months of discussion with my boss over my otherwise clean record and my other clients' approval of me before that was cleared up. Useless misery!) After that, got scammed by two different people over a visa in my current country of residence (I was in the process of losing mine), ended up without the money to pay my rent and had to move to a dangerous neighborhood to live in a kind of group home where I was attacked in my room one night by the drunk landlord and his friends (I'd been late on my rent). Ran away, got scammed by the second visa guy, ended up homeless.


^ Tale of stupid misery.

But when I told people about what had happened to me, what I most often met with was disbelief, or people thinking I was exaggerating. It's very sad that it's like that. I also think some people simply can't handle it, or the thought that it could happen.

In any case, I've rambled enough. I'm just so sorry that that relationship became like that for you... :(

Veil 2 is on the floor? It's intriguing. I think going through something like that, I can really understand you on wanting to feel contextualized. My good friend is a INFJ female with INFP male. He actually drives me crazy. I get so frustrated with him, I want to just mentally shake him. His faults are the same faults as my husband but like 10x worse. So for sure he triggers me. lol. I'm quite horrified for my INFJ friend most of the time, but.... this is just one relationship. They do have kids, by the way, and it's not good.
What would you say are his faults? What are some of the things he does that drives you crazy? (And may I ask your husband's type?) Is there anything he does that is good or beneficial in any way? Er, the INFP guy, not your husband, hahaha!! I mean, unless he's an INFP or INFJ, too!

Sorry for many questions, but would love to hear your answers, if you can manage it! :)

With my INFP sister and her INFJ, I'd rather shake her. Get a clue, this guy is devoted and the best you've ever been with. Hmm... I guess the INFJs have my sympathy in both cases. But I don't know any other INFP-INFJ relationships. These two INFJs are the only two INFJs who I know in real life who are in relationships, actually. The other 2 INFJ females who I know are single.
She's lacking in confidence, I bet. She doesn't believe she deserves him...I wonder if she is co-dependent. There's another topic in the forum about a girl with a similar reaction (also INFP, but with an INTJ, if I'm not mistaken). Does she always question him and his motives? Or worry needlessly?
 

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I agree with your therapist...Well, first of all, I'm so sorry that you've had such crazy misfortune and are alone in it. I'm so sorry...But I understand what your therapist means, in a way. It's like, if people can't imagine it, they don't want to believe it could happen. And sometimes, when things are seemingly "too extreme", they feel like it's impossible.

My own tale of "woe" or "whoa":
 
I remember a point in my life not too long ago where everything was going wrong. My grandmother passed away and I couldn't be with her (though I'd promised I would). Then both of my jobs started falling apart at the seams. One because of poor management and the company going bankrupt, and one because a client (who it turned out had been jealous of me, as stupid and petty as that was) had complained. (Took months of discussion with my boss over my otherwise clean record and my other clients' approval of me before that was cleared up. Useless misery!) After that, got scammed by two different people over a visa in my current country of residence (I was in the process of losing mine), ended up without the money to pay my rent and had to move to a dangerous neighborhood to live in a kind of group home where I was attacked in my room one night by the drunk landlord and his friends (I'd been late on my rent). Ran away, got scammed by the second visa guy, ended up homeless.


^ Tale of stupid misery.

But when I told people about what had happened to me, what I most often met with was disbelief, or people thinking I was exaggerating. It's very sad that it's like that. I also think some people simply can't handle it, or the thought that it could happen.

In any case, I've rambled enough. I'm just so sorry that that relationship became like that for you... :(



What would you say are his faults? What are some of the things he does that drives you crazy? (And may I ask your husband's type?) Is there anything he does that is good or beneficial in any way? Er, the INFP guy, not your husband, hahaha!! I mean, unless he's an INFP or INFJ, too!

Sorry for many questions, but would love to hear your answers, if you can manage it! :)



She's lacking in confidence, I bet. She doesn't believe she deserves him...I wonder if she is co-dependent. There's another topic in the forum about a girl with a similar reaction (also INFP, but with an INTJ, if I'm not mistaken). Does she always question him and his motives? Or worry needlessly?
 

I'll don a veil. Or drop 1. Whatever I'm doing.
I'm in an opinionated mood, though, so beware. This is not me talking at my prettiest and likely will be a horrible first impression. I sometimes can give a spoonful of sugar with my medicine, but I'm not in the mood for sugar and haven't been for a week or more. I want salt and lemon ground into raw reality right now and then healing, maybe. Also, this is probably not a typical couple AT ALL. So the following story is hardly fair. There's some deep emotional trauma in her past and for him....yeah... he's....

My husband is an INFP, I'm on PerC all the time so most people know stuff about me-- again beware!. My husband is intelligent and funny. To him all my annoying/crazy quirks are a lack of Si. And to me all his faults are a lack of Te. So now to get to my INFJ friend's INFP. I'm going to be fully honest. He has had an affair, which is a big surprise since he is close to 400 lbs. He does not have a job. My friend has some serious health conditions and has lost her job 4 times in 3 years, yet he still doesn't get a job. It's all up to her. He plays video games pretty much 24/7. I know their mind connection and level of comfortableness is probably about equal to my husband's and mine although, in my opinion, they explore a lot less of each others' minds and work through almost nothing. They don't talk or share much. But where I am constantly trying to inspire my husband and get him doing healthy things-- I'm not saying it works, but at least one of us is not passive or in danger of being complacent about things that are ultimately very unhealthy-- then she is incredibly passive with her husband. I think she is all sympathy for him. Here's the horrible thing that really hurts me with my husband as well but mine has come a long way. Both INFP guys are the type of person that when they know you are going through a ton of S or T type stresses that cause a great deal of emotional stress as well, then they will sympathize and understand you but my INFJ's INFP does NOTHING to try to relieve these stresses in a S or T realm and will often disengage when the going gets tough. That to me is kind of a Judah's kiss. It's like it's worse than not being understood, imo. Being understood exactly but your loved one doing nothing except focus on video games when you are in pain...makes the pain 10x worse and loneliness worse, imo. I think it's because this INFP just expects for other people to deal with S and T better than he does and maybe even can't completely realize that he could and should do something to help. But that shows a real lack of something, right? With him, he knows his family is absolutely drowning and his wife is having to beg for welfare from their church (which just about demoralizes her to crying every time I see her) but he does nothing to put his mind to helping his family and instead concentrates on video games. I think it's brutal coming from a caring imaginative sympathetic person. Any T would do more. My friend has extreme stress on her. I think most people have a hard time understanding doing nothing to help relieve stress on a spouse when you have the capability on paper. I might be wrong-- well, but my family was always there, solidly dependable in a crisis growing up, so...and so was my husband's family for him. I do think its... I don't know. Selfish. Maybe it's an unhealthy Enneagram 9 + INFP thing... it's pretty counter-intuitive. My husband is a 9 and is sp subtype, and so is this guy. I think I was in my mid-20's before my Te kicked in enough to realize I should try to relieve stress for others. Its not like I don't understand...except that I don't.

I think parenting is kind of sacred and a pretty private affair so it takes a lot for me to comment on parenting. The INFP dad kind of neglects/indulges the kids and the INFJ lets him lead in parenting because she is just trying to hold her head above water and she's got to rely on him for something. She's got to trust him with the kids, basically, most days when she's at work. The kids are in and out of the psyche ward (not a metaphor)... She has to drop everything to get to the hospital. This has been a reason for her to lose jobs when she is a new hire. This is not a well-functioning couple, though, obviously. I'm sure there are better examples out there.

In my INFP sister's case it definitely is her low self-esteem holding her back in everything and creating very low goals for herself including usually being with guys who don't care and this allowed her to also not deal with other pressures of possibly having a family. But this low self-esteem with it's accompanying vision of what she wants is really hurtful to a guy who actually gives up a lot for her daily. So to me... I'd say put your energy into loving others and quit putting all your energy in hating yourself. Which also strikes me as a general lack of Te... but Ne first also gives you the idea that you can figure out anything if you put your mind to it... Fi-Si loop hardly ever happens for me. When it does, it's because I've been around my sister. Blah, this is TRUE.... But do you see what I mean? When she chooses to nurse her low self-esteem she is choosing to ignore his needs and his pain that she is causing. Honestly, I wonder how long he will stand for it. He's proposed a few times now. Actually... she's not improving...she had a couple of better years 2 years ago in a 20 year streak of misery. They've been 4 years together. I actually hope he gets out of there so that he can be happy, or maybe she'll finally push him away. I'm feeling just sick for him, actually, just thinking about it. She is very unhealthy and he always struck me as being in a higher average of emotional health with a family that adores him.
Imagine I'm nicer most days when I don't wear veils.

 
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:crying::angry:
Unfortunately, I relate to the mechanisms that cause the INFP 9s to disengage. It's a very E9 kind of dysfunctional MO and being an INFP doesn't help as you don't even have the J drive to keep your house in order. I experience it very viscerally as a parasite in my brain ... it's like when it takes over, the lights go out, the engine powers down, and nothing happens for extended periods of time. The parasite will grab whatever it can to stay in power ... video games, alcohol, drugs, whatever kind of soma there is within reasonably easy reach since it hates effort.

I really think pain is the only way to force an unhealthy 9 to change when they've let themselves go to that extent. If you want them to get better, you should repeatedly hit them with one of these until they man the F up (metaphorically speaking, though an actual physical attack might also help, come to think of it...).

Right now, I feel like this and I want to go and grab the video game dude by his balls and drag him out onto the street, to be repeatedly hit by cars until his E9 parasite is dead. I visualise the E9 parasite as something like this - only worthy of intense anger and violent aggression until beaten into submission, 24/7 if need be.
@DTsuDTsu - me and Llyralen are old online friends, don't be spooked by the anger :happy: The E9 parasite is its only target. Your INFJ clearly isn't an E9, gods be praised. 9s are more common among IxFPs than INFJs.

 

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I fell in love with an INFP girl once. We knew eachother for quite a time and were friends for years. I always liked her and I always found her really pretty and cute; short chestnur hair, hazel eyes and a sparkle in them that enchanted anybody who was sensitive enough to see it. She was playful, sweet and very artistic. A person with a very big heart.

We were really good friends... but, as I said, I fell in love with her and those feelings were tormenting me. To be so close to somebody you love... but yet so far. I couldn´t take it, I had to tell her. If I would stay silent, I would hate myself for the rest of my life. And so I told her the truth... through a letter... and a poem that I made just for her. I pourred my whole heart into those words. Words of affection and admiration. I really did my best to tell her how much she mattered to me.
But she didn´t respond... somehow she thought ignoring me would be an answer in itself. I can´t even tell how frustrating it was. Basically, I had to "beg" her to tell me "no". To put me out of my misery. Because only a clear NO could finally bury any hope that was still opposing my otherwise rationale self.

So she told me the words. And I can confirm that I feel much better now knowing that she didn´t like me the way I liked her. Well... indirectly she told me I wasn´t good enough for her(and that is really painful).

I mean... I am not mad at her. But I find it somewhat stupid and unfair that she has no problem going on dates with random guys she has just met while she totally ignored someone who liked her not for her looks(like those guys), but for her other qualities.

With that said, I can clearly tell you that I am glad that I told her the truth. I am finally free now. But this experience left me very cautious when it comes to INFP girls. Because even if they are so sweet, artistic and noble, they still have this hidden dark side that is so incredibly selfish. Too selfish for an INFJ.
 

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Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
 

I'll don a veil. Or drop 1. Whatever I'm doing.
I'm in an opinionated mood, though, so beware. This is not me talking at my prettiest and likely will be a horrible first impression. I sometimes can give a spoonful of sugar with my medicine, but I'm not in the mood for sugar and haven't been for a week or more. I want salt and lemon ground into raw reality right now and then healing, maybe. Also, this is probably not a typical couple AT ALL. So the following story is hardly fair. There's some deep emotional trauma in her past and for him....yeah... he's....

My husband is an INFP, I'm on PerC all the time so most people know stuff about me-- again beware!. My husband is intelligent and funny. To him all my annoying/crazy quirks are a lack of Si. And to me all his faults are a lack of Te. So now to get to my INFJ friend's INFP. I'm going to be fully honest. He has had an affair, which is a big surprise since he is close to 400 lbs. He does not have a job. My friend has some serious health conditions and has lost her job 4 times in 3 years, yet he still doesn't get a job. It's all up to her. He plays video games pretty much 24/7. I know their mind connection and level of comfortableness is probably about equal to my husband's and mine although, in my opinion, they explore a lot less of each others' minds and work through almost nothing. They don't talk or share much. But where I am constantly trying to inspire my husband and get him doing healthy things-- I'm not saying it works, but at least one of us is not passive or in danger of being complacent about things that are ultimately very unhealthy-- then she is incredibly passive with her husband.
 


Holy hell...I'm only this far in and I can see the inherent laziness in this man. Not to mention the....the (what can you even call it!?) that cheated on her. The poor thing!

I think she is all sympathy for him. Here's the horrible thing that really hurts me with my husband as well but mine has come a long way. Both INFP guys are the type of person that when they know you are going through a ton of S or T type stresses that cause a great deal of emotional stress as well, then they will sympathize and understand you but my INFJ's INFP does NOTHING to try to relieve these stresses in a S or T realm and will often disengage when the going gets tough. That to me is kind of a Judah's kiss. It's like it's worse than not being understood, imo. Being understood exactly but your loved one doing nothing except focus on video games when you are in pain...makes the pain 10x worse and loneliness worse, imo.
Yes, selfishness is clearly innate to him. I am utterly disgusted by how cruel this man is. I don't want to go back into the realm of discussing mental illnesses in types, but in this case as well, I can't help wondering how much of this is his INFP nature or him just being completely toxic. Hearing what you said me shudder and feel sick. I've just gotten out of an abusive situation, and that utter neglect, that lack of compassion (playing games while his partner is in pain, living off of her with no regrets, etc.) sounds like the better days of the abuse I experienced. Is she really doing okay, his partner?? I'm worried for her.

I think it's because this INFP just expects for other people to deal with S and T better than he does and maybe even can't completely realize that he could and should do something to help. But that shows a real lack of something, right? With him, he knows his family is absolutely drowning and his wife is having to beg for welfare from their church (which just about demoralizes her to crying every time I see her) but he does nothing to put his mind to helping his family and instead concentrates on video games.
Oh certainly more than lacking. Even neglect counts as abuse. And the fact that he had the gall to cheat on her while she's giving up so much for him...? I'm utterly enraged. Really, is there any way you could go get her to look into NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder)...? The financial abuse, the living off the other and allowing her to suffer trying to get them to survive with no regrets, never helping out, cheating, and the lack of empathy in terms of her pain........? He is obviously toxic, but if she's living with someone Narcissistic, it really could be dangerous for her in the long run...even if only in terms of the mental anguish such an encounter can cause.

I think it's brutal coming from a caring imaginative sympathetic person. Any T would do more. My friend has extreme stress on her. I think most people have a hard time understanding doing nothing to help relieve stress on a spouse when you have the capability on paper. I might be wrong-- well, but my family was always there, solidly dependable in a crisis growing up, so...and so was my husband's family for him. I do think its... I don't know. Selfish. Maybe it's an unhealthy Enneagram 9 + INFP thing... it's pretty counter-intuitive. My husband is a 9 and is sp subtype, and so is this guy. I think I was in my mid-20's before my Te kicked in enough to realize I should try to relieve stress for others. Its not like I don't understand...except that I don't.
No, I think you're right. It seems unnatural and brutal. I don't know if this is an INFP thing...My other INFP friends (well, most of them, any way) and certainly the ENFPs I know are extremely sympathetic. They're more inclined to listen and try for soothing words, commiserating rather than give advice (I would consider myself like this too), but they want to help. This poor woman's husband is....I don't know. But something is just not right.

I think parenting is kind of sacred and a pretty private affair so it takes a lot for me to comment on parenting. The INFP dad kind of neglects/indulges the kids and the INFJ lets him lead in parenting because she is just trying to hold her head above water and she's got to rely on him for something. She's got to trust him with the kids, basically, most days when she's at work. The kids are in and out of the psyche ward (not a metaphor)... She has to drop everything to get to the hospital. This has been a reason for her to lose jobs when she is a new hire. This is not a well-functioning couple, though, obviously. I'm sure there are better examples out there.
"The kids are in and out of the psyche ward."

Oof, I feel triggered. INFP daddy in this story is sounding sicker and sicker to me. :( I know we can't know for sure what's happening, but dear lord I hope those poor children are going to be okay...

In my INFP sister's case it definitely is her low self-esteem holding her back in everything and creating very low goals for herself including usually being with guys who don't care and this allowed her to also not deal with other pressures of possibly having a family. But this low self-esteem with it's accompanying vision of what she wants is really hurtful to a guy who actually gives up a lot for her daily. So to me... I'd say put your energy into loving others and quit putting all your energy in hating yourself. Which also strikes me as a general lack of Te... but Ne first also gives you the idea that you can figure out anything if you put your mind to it... Fi-Si loop hardly ever happens for me. When it does, it's because I've been around my sister. Blah, this is TRUE.... But do you see what I mean? When she chooses to nurse her low self-esteem she is choosing to ignore his needs and his pain that she is causing. Honestly, I wonder how long he will stand for it. He's proposed a few times now. Actually... she's not improving...she had a couple of better years 2 years ago in a 20 year streak of misery. They've been 4 years together. I actually hope he gets out of there so that he can be happy, or maybe she'll finally push him away. I'm feeling just sick for him, actually, just thinking about it. She is very unhealthy and he always struck me as being in a higher average of emotional health with a family that adores him.
Imagine I'm nicer most days when I don't wear veils.
Yes, that's key: "put your energy into loving others and quit putting all your energy in hating yourself"

Self-love is everything in relationships! We can't expect others to love us (as in this very case presented above) if we can't even love ourselves. We can let real love slip right through our fingers because not knowing love, we wouldn't recognize it when we had it. If she can't get onto a path of healing soon, she might indeed lose all she has. And I'm sure she'll realize what that was once it's gone...

How sad...

I feel rather sick for this poor man, too...I can feel his pain, especially that he's trying so hard and she's just not seeing it. I don't think she's doing it out of selfishness. I really think she's blind to it out of her own lack of confidence. That's just my take on it, though. But it's not good. It's not fair to him, it's not good for either of them, and she's about to lose the best person she probably ever had. Wake up, dear!! Don't miss out!!

Oh, I wish things were easier...

I don't know how it is to be with other types that are unhealthy, but I think being with an unhealthy INFP can be very difficult (at best) and very painful for sure. I recognize my own INFP-based flaws and am enjoying working through them. I'd say I'm relatively healthy, even having come out of a traumatic background. The drive to understand, heal, and grow helps immensely. But it takes conscious effort. For an unhealthy INFP........Oh dear, I don't know. They're such lost souls that I don't think they can even imagine the palpable pain that they carry around with them. Or they do, and are so confused and troubled that they don't know how to or otherwise possess the means to keep that pain from reaching others...

For the record, I didn't find you salty or whiny or harsh or anything like that at all. The last thread de-railed because people were using statements that insisted "INFP people are ALL like this" or "trying to discuss with them doesn't work"...generalizations about unhealthy INFP people being unhealthy because they were INFPs, not because they were simply unhealthy or toxic, as any type can be. You've used two real examples you know, and unfortunately they are both unhealthy INFPs, but you're not saying they're unhealthy because of their type. I took no issue with anything you wrote and rather commiserate with you. I can imagine it must be so painful to have to witness....Even just hearing about it made my stomach turn...

I'm wishing the best for both people in your stories...The partners putting up with Hell. I really hope they'll find a way out, find a way to what good they deserve...Thank you for sharing!
 

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Discussion Starter #40 (Edited)
@DTsuDTsu - me and Llyralen are old online friends, don't be spooked by the anger :happy: The E9 parasite is its only target. Your INFJ clearly isn't an E9, gods be praised. 9s are more common among IxFPs than INFJs.
No worries! I actually didn't feel any of the anger in the post...More of rightful anger I sympathized with. The first case was clearly someone who is abusive, even if only in a covert manner (and I rather hope the partner and the kids get out just for that reason). And the second case, the INFP woman is, while regrettably so, unintentionally toxic. I felt sick for both of the partners, to be honest...

But this is totally different from the other thread, where people brought up such extreme examples and made it out that toxic INFPs are that way because they're INFPs. That was my issue when these extreme examples were brought up in the other thread and made out to be innate truths of the whole type. They also weren't talking about romantic relationships...Just wasn't helpful, that's all.

Anyway, I agree. 9 doesn't sounds like my INFJ, and I don't think I'm a 9. Good lord, I hope not. I keep getting 6 on the test...I don't know what that would make me really, but the few things I did read seemed relatively accurate.

Why do you think E9 (especially among INFPs) would end up this way? I would have thought 4 could tend more towards selfishness...I know I'm not including all the points of these examples' special penchant for...well, being toxic (they're obviously more than just selfish), but I do wonder...
 
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