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Discussion Starter #1
Today I was perusing through psychologytoday.com and somehow managed to find myself taking the Meyer-Briggs. Brigg? I'm sure somebody here will correct me, as a brief skimming of these forums was enough to show that some are downright fanatical about their four-letter personalities. Don't lynch me. I don't know what the hell "Ni-Ne" means, nor am I sure if I want to care about those intricacies just yet. What I do know is that I was pegged as an INTJ, read just about every damn profile I could get my mouse-clicking fingers on, and was blown away by a strange, foreign feeling: That of belonging, of actually making sense and not feeling like a lone sideliner on the field of society. So, I don't know and don't frankly care about the other types (I've met y'all in that magical place called real life, and people are fairly easy to figure out), but I am convinced that a yes/no question personality test was able to peg my squareness into a snug square hole.

However, what I haven't found in any of those profiles which is of particular interest to me at the moment is the issue of INTJ women (what few of us, apparently, there are), relationships, and sex. What are the chances, do you think, of someone belonging to a group comprised of <1% of society ever finding or entering into a fulfilling relationship? I also wonder if any of you other INTJ women find yourselves in the same patterns I do: That of occasionally (rarely) finding a guy interesting, and delving headlong into it--into all aspects of it--until ultimately either becoming bored by him, or it not going anywhere because he has no idea how to relate to you (the usual methods of courting don't work).

Ahh anonymity: This must be why forums are so popular.
 

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It may be of help, I suppose. Here it is,

"Female NTs, in particular, are apt to have their sexuality overlaid with intellectualism. Their preference for the logical can obscure expressions of their feelings, which may or may not be well developed. If not, the NT female may have difficulty with organic responses unless her partner takes the time, makes the efforts, and understands the necessity of making a sexual approach through mutual exploration of intellectual concepts. It is unlikely that an NT female will be sexually stimulated by a partner who is not her intellectual equal. Male NTs have a somewhat different expectation concerning intellectual equality. The preference here is for equality at most and some – but not too much – inferiority at best. Obviously, this places the intellectually gifted female in a position of limited appropriate NT choices."

Source: http://www.philosophy-religion.org/nolan/intj.htm


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You don't have to date someone just like you to be in a fulfilling relationship. :p It sounds less like it's a type thing and more about being picky (same boat lol). I'm wondering if you aren't attracted to something that superficially resembles what you want in a relationship. Then when you find it's not really there, you lose interest.

It might be a good idea to figure out what it is that you're really looking for. :) My INTJ bf: "A relationship has to make sense on paper before any emotional connection can occur for INTJs." You may need to do some of the chasing sometimes.... >.> Because you're right, the standard courtship method probably won't work on you (which is what most guys are going to use).

You may also want to take a chance just being friends with different kinds of guys. Sometimes the best relationships start with the understanding and connection of friendship.
 

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Welcome, @MelissaC :)

I can definitely relate to the disinterested feeling that you described. For me, it went away as soon as I figured out what I really wanted in a partner (in terms of personality traits) rather than simply focussing on what is available in terms of the kind of people who approached me. Since I tend to get along really well with introverts and they get me in a way that most extroverts don't seem to, this meant that I had to work on being a little bit more assertive in my interactions with other people who are shy and/or reserved. I've been in a relationship with another introvert for close to nine months now and we're very happy together. Obviously what makes me happy in a relationship is probably going to differ from what makes you happy, but I think that figuring out what you want is probably a really good place to start.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the welcomes!
Definitely have to find a guy intellectually stimulating in some sense in order for anything sexual to occur, but there's a range involved. I can have a short-term tryst with a guy who has even just a quality sense of humor and some measure of common sense but no idea who Mark Twain is (an unfortunately true story--the key words were "short-term"). Is the intellectual prerequisite really specific to INTJs for long term relationships, though? I can't imagine being able to respect somebody enough to love them if they weren't at least my equal intellectually, but then I can't imagine at all what it would be like to reside in an extrovert's headspace. I imagine a constant buzzing as a background to the sounds of endless words tumbling forth from the mouth.

Really, I'm just leaving an incredibly unhappy marriage (please don't flood the page with sympathy, it's not necessary) and wondering if perhaps I'll be happiest single with my inherent personality traits. I'm certainly not looking. In the interests of planning ahead, I'm wondering where I should place "enter happy relationship" on my list of priorities. But it sounds like you other INTJs have found fulfilling partnerships, so maybe I shouldn't abandon the notion of ever having one.

Then again, I love not having to share closet space. :)
 

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So are you asking about the intricacies of a relationship with people who society consider more normal... Or are you asking about fitting a round peg into a somewhat round hole?
 

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@MelissaC Absolutely you can find a fulfilling relationship. :) Just remember your needs are mutually important...and for you, that's going to start with respect for anything long-term, both for and from your significant other.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So are you asking about the intricacies of a relationship with people who society consider more normal... Or are you asking about fitting a round peg into a somewhat round hole?

Both, I suppose. I've just never met people who face the same challenges I seem to continually come across in personal relationships, so I'm curious if the problems are unique to me or the whole "INTJ" spectrum in general. The challenge basically boils down to a tendency to be either outcasted or somewhat revered, and unrealistically so.

As an illustration to that last sentence: In nursing school people began dubbing me "Melissapedia" ("Pedia" for short) because I never struggled to understand course material and never received less than an A on tests. They also voted me class president. But even so, many ignored me on a personal level, and I had few real friends in my class. I think that encapsulates my social life in general. I have a few close friends, and the rest of people tend to be intimidated or put off by me. This dynamic also plays out in romantic relationships, in a way. In this past (as in, up until extremely recently), I would take to "playing dumb" and self-deprecating in order to be approachable and generally likable. It began when I was a small child growing up with cousins who are, frankly, not the brightest. I was tormented unless I made myself inhabit their level. In grade school I was made fun of for being intelligent, as I assume many of you were as well. You can only fake insecurity for so long before it begins to develop for real. I downplayed my strengths so much I forgot what they were, while simultaneously attempting to force myself to develop traits I don't have, like extroversion, feminine delicacy, etc. Then I berated myself for not succeeding at being those things.

Honestly it wasn't until I read the INTJ profiles that I had a bit of a dawning moment, that instead of working with my strengths I've been working against them, and it has caused immeasurable strife. I read the profiles and thought, "Well shit, I guess it's not such a bad thing to be a relatively unemotional female, to be scientific in my approach to life, to intellectualize every last thing, etc".

So like I said, I'm more curious whether my awful relationship patterns are specific to me and how I've dealt with being who I am, or if it's just par for the INTJ course.
 

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@MelissaC

Glad to see you're knocking that crap off. While you're not going to "win" any more friends by playing into your strengths, you won't feel so miserable denying who you are.

The rest I can relate to more or less. For a long time now I've thought of myself as a shaman. I'm the guy people come to for answers, help, solutions or even just someone to share their mental/emotional burdens with... But I'm not getting invited over for dinner. I could invite myself over, but it wouldn't be casual. I suspect there'd be pressure to make things "just right" for me or to try to impress, and who's going to enjoy that? I typically keep one really good friend and several loose associations. Folks I can call upon when I'd like things done. It's a bartering system of sorts. I help out, and then have but to ask when I want something. Always on the edge of the social clicks, never inside them. I'm rarely hated, and in the odd occasion that I am, I do exactly nothing about it and the person comes around after so many months. Instead of being strictly "liked", I get a sort of distanced respect. Which suits me fine.

Maybe you want something different? I imagine being male helps quite a bit with my personality and romance. I've no problem being alone, and no interest in burning through women with random encounters... But I don't have any troubles finding someone to date if I want. Little known secret, women choose their mates. People have this hollywood perception that man just walks up and says something smooth and sweeps the woman off her feet. Which works... provided the woman has already decided she's interested. So you have the advantage there.

I see a lot of intjs go slack in the jaw over enfps. Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, but they seem to be the flame the INTJ moths swarm to. Good news is being here you can get a feel for what kind of person interests you... Then with a bit of study you can spot them simply by they way they move and speak and the words that come out of their mouths. Depends on how much effort you put into it.

The short of is that you're fine. Nothing wrong with you. You have natural strengths and weaknesses like anyone else. Being a smart, thinking female does defy social norms, but so what? You're taking the first step by seeking to know yourself and sure it's going to be something you have to work harder at than the iconic, cookie-cutter female does... but I shouldn't have to tell you the advantages you have over that stereotype. There are roughly an equal number of social norm defying men out there too.

My guess is that you're in your late 20s. If so you have plenty of time to sort this all out. We're I you I'd worry less at present with finding a romantic partner, and more with figuring out who you are and who you want to be. Once you have that foundation and know how to act and feel comfortable in your own skin, the rest just falls into place.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Wish I knew how to do that nifty "@" thing.

Thanks for your reply, Grim. You're right about working out who I am, and that's certainly my game plan. This relationship stuff is--for the time being--more a matter of curiosity than desire. I want a boyfriend just about as much as I want a terminal disease...and right now I consider them to be variations of the same thing. Ha. But in case I stop viewing men as terminal diseases I'd like to have a mental grip on what kind of relationship would even work for me, seeing as how I'm a relative oddity (a statistical tidbit which failed to surprise me in the least).

You're also right about female choice, but I think that applies almost exclusively to sexual encounters, not relationships. Of course any woman could walk into any bar, begin offering sex, and quickly thereafter find herself in bed with a man. Obviously men can not do the same without the police getting involved and charges being pressed. Conversely, a woman could walk into a bar and begin offering long term relationships and be hauled off, whereas a man could do the same and likely get laid within hours. Interesting, isn't that? Basically what I'm saying is I've no problem finding sex, and fantastic sex at that. It's the mess of relationships that gets me. They make no damn sense! And I hate things not making sense, especially when they seem so simple to so many people who lack impressive intellectual faculties. There could be something in that to ponder as well...

As for the ENFP thing, I looked them up and yeah. Definitely have a weakness for them. The last guy I dated certainly fits the profile, and I'd often find myself thinking "What the hell am I seeing this guy for?" until I was actually in his presence, then most rational thought would escape me. Like you implied, though: Now that I recognize the type I know what to expect.

And being a male definitely works in your favor. You can be the "strong, silent type", helping out in the wings. There's a word people use for "strong, silent" women: "Bitch".


@MelissaC

Glad to see you're knocking that crap off. While you're not going to "win" any more friends by playing into your strengths, you won't feel so miserable denying who you are.

The rest I can relate to more or less. For a long time now I've thought of myself as a shaman. I'm the guy people come to for answers, help, solutions or even just someone to share their mental/emotional burdens with... But I'm not getting invited over for dinner. I could invite myself over, but it wouldn't be casual. I suspect there'd be pressure to make things "just right" for me or to try to impress, and who's going to enjoy that? I typically keep one really good friend and several loose associations. Folks I can call upon when I'd like things done. It's a bartering system of sorts. I help out, and then have but to ask when I want something. Always on the edge of the social clicks, never inside them. I'm rarely hated, and in the odd occasion that I am, I do exactly nothing about it and the person comes around after so many months. Instead of being strictly "liked", I get a sort of distanced respect. Which suits me fine.

Maybe you want something different? I imagine being male helps quite a bit with my personality and romance. I've no problem being alone, and no interest in burning through women with random encounters... But I don't have any troubles finding someone to date if I want. Little known secret, women choose their mates. People have this hollywood perception that man just walks up and says something smooth and sweeps the woman off her feet. Which works... provided the woman has already decided she's interested. So you have the advantage there.

I see a lot of intjs go slack in the jaw over enfps. Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, but they seem to be the flame the INTJ moths swarm to. Good news is being here you can get a feel for what kind of person interests you... Then with a bit of study you can spot them simply by they way they move and speak and the words that come out of their mouths. Depends on how much effort you put into it.

The short of is that you're fine. Nothing wrong with you. You have natural strengths and weaknesses like anyone else. Being a smart, thinking female does defy social norms, but so what? You're taking the first step by seeking to know yourself and sure it's going to be something you have to work harder at than the iconic, cookie-cutter female does... but I shouldn't have to tell you the advantages you have over that stereotype. There are roughly an equal number of social norm defying men out there too.

My guess is that you're in your late 20s. If so you have plenty of time to sort this all out. We're I you I'd worry less at present with finding a romantic partner, and more with figuring out who you are and who you want to be. Once you have that foundation and know how to act and feel comfortable in your own skin, the rest just falls into place.
 

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Nifty "@"thing is just cutting and pasting a name and putting @ before it @MelissaC.

Welcome to the forum. I can totally relate to what you say about relationships. I could have written the descriptors exactly the same as you, I probably have actually.
 

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@MelissaC

The idea of a man walking into a bar and sprouting off about long term relationship is a new one to me. Thanks for that.

Is there anything specific that applies to you that confuses you about relationships, or is it the whole idea of them in general that confounds you? If there are specifics I'd be interested in reading them.
 

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And being a male definitely works in your favor. You can be the "strong, silent type", helping out in the wings. There's a word people use for "strong, silent" women: "Bitch".
Aloof = strong, silent type (applied to women).

Bitch = combative, mean, miserable and bossy (applied to women).

You are not a bitch. Simply aloof. Welcome to the forums. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
@Grim
(Maybe it will work?)

Interesting question. I suppose it's not relationships in general, as I can see that they fulfill an emotional need for many people, and furthermore are considered a milestone of growing up. Many people won't consider you a "true" adult until you are or have been married, for instance. So I get the general idea of it. Courtship, even, is simple but I'm astounded by how complicated people make it. And perhaps that's the crux of it for me: I don't understand the unspoken rules of the game, or rather, I don't see the need for them.

For instance. Let's say tomorrow I stumble upon an incredible man (hopefully figuratively, but if Hollywood is to be believed then literally falling on one might work too). We talk and hit it off. Being straightforward, I'd probably say something like, "Oh hey wow, you're not retarded, and you find clumsiness charming. We should go out." So far so good right? Easy enough. So we go out, it goes well. I still admire him and hopefully haven't inadvertently bodyslammed him again. Now what? This is where it gets messy, in my opinion, because I've a tendency to dive in headlong when I find somebody genuinely interesting...since it doesn't happen all too often. Perhaps that's the "specific thing that applies to me". It's definitely something to work on. I guess I treat men the same way I treat whatever subject matter or hobby I happen to be into any given month: as something to be figured out and mastered. Jesus, when I put it like that it sounds pretty awful. Maybe it is. And probably because of this tendency I've been largely drawn to the walking wounded types. Those who appear normal but fester beneath the surface with psychological traumas. Takes longer to get bored by them, I guess. But that's a pattern I won't be repeating anymore (my ex-husband is amongst the walking wounded. Our marriage ended with me cheating on him--boredom--and declaring "Look, I can't fix you". That's omitting his faults in the ruination of the marriage, mind you, because really, who among you gives a fuck? I hardly give a fuck anymore).

So I suppose what I'm left with is this: Either find a way to erase my overarching tendency to dive in and master things, and ultimately abandon them, or hope to find somebody endlessly fascinating. The latter is probably a likely solution.
 

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@MelissaC

No dice on the @ attempt. Just toss up an @ and type the person's name after as it appears with regards to capitalization. Other formatting such as color and bolding is not required.

At first glance it would seem what you want out of or perhaps how you view a relationship and your partner's role is the issue. It reminds me of the "suck the new out of it and move on vibe" you get from "sx" or "sexual" first variants in the enneagram. For what it's worth I think sx first types are more likely to cheat for that reason. I'm bored, what's next?

Maybe for you seeking more constructive outlets for that energy would help? Perhaps minimize how much of that "entertain me" responsibility you place on your mate.

If I'm on to something here, this easily goes beyond the scope of a conversation you should be having with a total stranger on a forum.
 

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Go find a male ENTP. Many of them prefer female INTJs and you're hard to find. Out of all the women I know I've only been able to type 3 of them as INTJs, so you are a rare commodity.

BTW welcome to PerC.
 

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Please note that MBTI doesn't 'box' people in; it's more of a "which description fits you most?" kind of thing. The thing with hypothetical constructs is this: defining the elements of a construct is not sufficient to 'determine' what a construct is. Imagine a photograph. It will only take a limited part of reality that we wish to capture, and so we can never capture a picture and claim that the picture represents the whole world.


It's normal for people to find it hard to relate to the type of people they rarely meet. The brain works on necessity; recurring patterns are easier to process than unfamiliar patterns.

You can think of rare types as rare animals (I'm not implying that INTJ women = animal); biologists wouldn't know a lot about them if they haven't studied them.
 

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Please note that MBTI doesn't 'box' people in; it's more of a "which description fits you most?" kind of thing. The thing with hypothetical constructs is this: defining the elements of a construct is not sufficient to 'determine' what a construct is. Imagine a photograph. It will only take a limited part of reality that we wish to capture, and so we can never capture a picture and claim that the picture represents the whole world.


It's normal for people to find it hard to relate to the type of people they rarely meet. The brain works on necessity; recurring patterns are easier to process than unfamiliar patterns.

You can think of rare types as rare animals (I'm not implying that INTJ women = animal); biologists wouldn't know a lot about them if they haven't studied them.
Oh we're animals right enough.

I would compare myself to an albino giraffe with dwarfism.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
@Grim

Perhaps I overplayed the "suck the new out of it and move on" angle, or perhaps I'm just hoping I did. And a virtually anonymous online forum with total strangers is the only place I feel comfortable having this conversation. Somehow I'm finding myself speaking more honestly than I do in a journal. Odd, that.
@Larxene

I agree. But perhaps there is something with being pegged in the "rare" group that makes it a tighter, more accurate fit...at least seemingly. I'm really not sure. I simply find a certain comfort in it, and a certain illumination.
@DMack
It's not an issue of being preferred so much as one of preferring.
 
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