NF's and horrible relationships
Sadly I find more NF's more than any of the other temperaments that tend to have bad relationships and often stay in them. I think this is due to the fact that many NF's are rescuers and feel the need to help people. Also, I think that this is because many NF's tend to be self-sacrificing and tend to put others before themselves and don't want to end a relationship or hurt a person by breaking up with them. Finally, I think that this is because I've found that many NF's lack self esteem naturally (I've noticed this from a thread that was posted on this forum). Thoughts?
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I don't want to comment on the statement that NF's are more likely to be in bad relationships 'cause that may or may not even be true.
I can tell you as an INFJ, I do not put others needs before my own. I get great joy from helping others but I am no doormat. In fact, I think sometimes I am too self-centered. My F means that I am acutely aware of how others are thinking and feeling but it doesn't always drive my behavior. In fact, I am often tactless, but then I immediately feel horrible when I realize it.
As far as self-esteem goes... I admit that I'm still confused about this... in some ways, I'm the most confident and self-assured person I know, but on the other hand I care way too much what other people think. But it's not that I care whether other people like me (although that's nice too), it's that I care that other people understand what I'm saying and find me valuable in some way. I know this is a contradiction - to say I'm self-confident but to care what others think. So if anyone feels the same way and understands it, please help clarify this for me.
I can tell you as an INFJ, I do not put others needs before my own. I get great joy from helping others but I am no doormat. In fact, I think sometimes I am too self-centered. My F means that I am acutely aware of how others are thinking and feeling but it doesn't always drive my behavior. In fact, I am often tactless, but then I immediately feel horrible when I realize it.
As far as self-esteem goes... I admit that I'm still confused about this... in some ways, I'm the most confident and self-assured person I know, but on the other hand I care way too much what other people think. But it's not that I care whether other people like me (although that's nice too), it's that I care that other people understand what I'm saying and find me valuable in some way. I know this is a contradiction - to say I'm self-confident but to care what others think. So if anyone feels the same way and understands it, please help clarify this for me.
NF's do have a higher probability to fall into relationships that won't last for one reason
They are relationships based off of fantasy and not logic
No matter how much people wish, you cannot base a relationship off of an idealistic thought you have in your head, you must look at the real situation and act accordingly and once you have verified reasonably that the relationship will last, THEN you can start to throw in your own fantasy element to make the relationship more enjoyable.
Idealistic thinking makes relationships enjoyable, but it does not make a good foundation in any scenario
They are relationships based off of fantasy and not logic
No matter how much people wish, you cannot base a relationship off of an idealistic thought you have in your head, you must look at the real situation and act accordingly and once you have verified reasonably that the relationship will last, THEN you can start to throw in your own fantasy element to make the relationship more enjoyable.
Idealistic thinking makes relationships enjoyable, but it does not make a good foundation in any scenario
I'm this way too.
I relate to this in my own way- I'm self-assured in my values and beliefs, so I will stand up for myself when somebody disrespects me.. there is a contradiction though bc I am not always upfront with my assertiveness, it mostly translates into stubbornly pursuing my own path, no matter how self-conscious I am of other people's opinions. I view self-esteem as being slightly different from having confidence- I think I have a reasonable amount of self-respect, but I have low confidence in relation to expressing myself socially/career-wise and advertising what I have to offer.
My last relationship lasted 3 years. I wanted to break it off around 6 months in. Took that long to actually grow some...
I just looked up the self-esteem in the dictionary... "a realistic respect for or favorable impression of one's self; self-respect"
Spook, Are you saying you have self-confidence in most all of your abilities except in your ability to express yourself and interact well in a social setting? I'm not sure if that is what you meant, but I think this might be the answer for me. (An ah-ha moment :happy
As I'm sure is the case for most introverts, I don't feel that comfortable with my social skills because they don't come as naturally to me as to extroverts. So it would make sense for me to have a realistically low impression of my abilities in this area (and consequently be self-conscious about what others think) yet still have a very favorable impression of myself and honestly appreciate all the talents that I have. Maybe it's just that we are taught growing up to believe that if we care a lot about what people think about us then our self-esteem must be low, but in reality that might not be why we care. ???
[An example: It would bother me greatly for someone to think I was stupid. But I have high self-esteem and know I'm not stupid. But then why would it bother me? Maybe because I figure that if someone thinks I'm stupid, I must not be expressing myself properly and must be making myself appear stupid. I know my social skills (and the related self-expression) are lacking and I do not want them to be.]
Spook, Are you saying you have self-confidence in most all of your abilities except in your ability to express yourself and interact well in a social setting? I'm not sure if that is what you meant, but I think this might be the answer for me. (An ah-ha moment :happy
As I'm sure is the case for most introverts, I don't feel that comfortable with my social skills because they don't come as naturally to me as to extroverts. So it would make sense for me to have a realistically low impression of my abilities in this area (and consequently be self-conscious about what others think) yet still have a very favorable impression of myself and honestly appreciate all the talents that I have. Maybe it's just that we are taught growing up to believe that if we care a lot about what people think about us then our self-esteem must be low, but in reality that might not be why we care. ???[An example: It would bother me greatly for someone to think I was stupid. But I have high self-esteem and know I'm not stupid. But then why would it bother me? Maybe because I figure that if someone thinks I'm stupid, I must not be expressing myself properly and must be making myself appear stupid. I know my social skills (and the related self-expression) are lacking and I do not want them to be.]
Can't speak for all NF's...but this sounds like me... Finally left a marriage after many years...and didn't even realize the reality of how dysfunctional it was until recently...when I started going to therapy... Trying to convince myself every day not to go back because I feel guilty... I am totally a rescuer...helping people comes natural to me, it's part of who I am. The problem is...I (we) have to learn to rescue ourselves and help ourselves...only then can we truly help others.
What I meant was that my self-esteem is mostly based on my values and beliefs. I deserve to be respected simply bc I am a human being, and based on the way I treat others. I basically won't let others make me feel inferior or take advantage of me bc I view it as unjust. That's the self-respect part which tries to protect me from the fickleness of others' opinions bc I know other parts of my 'self-esteem' are still affected by external sources. I also think some people have a greater ability to gain positive feedback and seek reassurance with good communication. We might think they are naturally self-confident but you'd have to be close to narcissistic to not feel insecure if you were criticised often enough.
I think I get what you mean about how you can feel insecure and self-conscious while still retaining a decent opinion of yourself. Maybe bc we are paranoid about being misunderstood? It's not that they will pick up on how flawed we are, but we won't have the social skills to defend ourselves and prove them wrong if they misinterpret our signals and deem us flawed, thereby exacerbating other negative social consequences for us. Perhaps it has something to do with Fe deeming the collective value system more influential than the personal, and how Ni's idiosyncrasies often are in conflict with their desire for belonging and acceptance. It does seem like we were taught to believe we have low self-esteem for caring what others think. I also think we are taught to believe that true self-esteem is the ability to respect and have confidence in our value and abilities, independent of what others think, which in many cases is a little unrealistic imo in a competitive, capitalist society, and even in a co-operative context...at least for many Fe users.
To elaborate, I don't have confidence in my abilities, but that's bc much of self-esteem seems to be dependent on external reinforcement of our abilities, and infjs are less likely to show them off to seek approval. So yes, it relates to what you said about not expressing yourself properly and living up to society's definition of a smart person in your example. You feel like you have self-worth and potential, but it will only be of any use if you can demonstrate your skills in a way that's recognisable and appreciated by others. You begin to think you will never be able to apply your insights into anything externally relevant, and self-doubt begins to cut into the realm of internal abilities, meanwhile having you resent that and wanting to defend your sense of shame against unequal principles simultaneously At least that's how I experience the apparent contradiction.
When I am alone and no one is putting pressure on me to perform, although I might ruminate on some self-critical thoughts, I'm fine with myself most of the time (don't think I'm stupid or ugly etc) bc I'm not provoked to compare myself to others like I would in a social context. It's mostly a fear of being negatively judged but I'm introverted enough to know that external influence is not all my identity is based on. I may have 'weak psychological boundaries' but I also like being sensitive and empathetic. It's just about finding the right, most compatible context in which to implement the skills which might seem like weaknesses in more populous area- that is the hard part.
I think I get what you mean about how you can feel insecure and self-conscious while still retaining a decent opinion of yourself. Maybe bc we are paranoid about being misunderstood? It's not that they will pick up on how flawed we are, but we won't have the social skills to defend ourselves and prove them wrong if they misinterpret our signals and deem us flawed, thereby exacerbating other negative social consequences for us. Perhaps it has something to do with Fe deeming the collective value system more influential than the personal, and how Ni's idiosyncrasies often are in conflict with their desire for belonging and acceptance. It does seem like we were taught to believe we have low self-esteem for caring what others think. I also think we are taught to believe that true self-esteem is the ability to respect and have confidence in our value and abilities, independent of what others think, which in many cases is a little unrealistic imo in a competitive, capitalist society, and even in a co-operative context...at least for many Fe users.
To elaborate, I don't have confidence in my abilities, but that's bc much of self-esteem seems to be dependent on external reinforcement of our abilities, and infjs are less likely to show them off to seek approval. So yes, it relates to what you said about not expressing yourself properly and living up to society's definition of a smart person in your example. You feel like you have self-worth and potential, but it will only be of any use if you can demonstrate your skills in a way that's recognisable and appreciated by others. You begin to think you will never be able to apply your insights into anything externally relevant, and self-doubt begins to cut into the realm of internal abilities, meanwhile having you resent that and wanting to defend your sense of shame against unequal principles simultaneously
At least that's how I experience the apparent contradiction. When I am alone and no one is putting pressure on me to perform, although I might ruminate on some self-critical thoughts, I'm fine with myself most of the time (don't think I'm stupid or ugly etc) bc I'm not provoked to compare myself to others like I would in a social context. It's mostly a fear of being negatively judged but I'm introverted enough to know that external influence is not all my identity is based on. I may have 'weak psychological boundaries' but I also like being sensitive and empathetic. It's just about finding the right, most compatible context in which to implement the skills which might seem like weaknesses in more populous area- that is the hard part.
Yes, I can relate to this very well. I sometimes feel too self-centered. I tend to pull away when my feelings are hurt. I try very hard to be tactful...it just doesn't come out that way all the time, ecspecially when I am/feel cornered; even if, this cornered feeling is my own doing. Is it really being self-centered when you feel warm because you were able to give of your self to another? (<<<questioning myself here) Sounds to me like I just expressed that my feelings do drive my behavior at times too.
I take in everyone's feelings/thoughts before I make a decision about a serious situation. I think this could be lumped in with caring about what other people think. I care about what people feel/think not what they feel/think about me. I am me & I have strong points & faults. That is ok. I have this philosophy, "If you want to dance with me, I am happy. If you don't want to dance with me, I am happy." I know this must sound cold, but it truly is not. I love when someone wants to dance with me. I can accept when they don't is all. Even with this philosophy, I sometimes stray from it. Yet, I keep coming back to it. :happy:
I am guilty in my relationship of the fixer/rescuer. Agree on your statements. However I don't think it's the lack of of self-esteem. It's more that failure reduces it. I don't want to be known that I fail at things.I want succesful relationships.
You will find that many NF's have a low self esteem. It's good that you don't though.
I've been in bad relationships and have had low self esteem because of past experiences with people treating me poorly when I was much younger. (Though I was able to leave those relationships once I realized they were getting to be too much to handle) But did they treat me poorly because I'm an NF or am I an NF because they treat me poorly? Or does one really have nothing to do with the other at all?
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