Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 161 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,739 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Talking to an ISFJ colleague about our respective approaches to computer programming, I commented that I often make an important breakthrough in my work when I step away from my computer and stop thinking deliberately about it. She said on the other hand that she slept on these problems to solve them.

Hearing this, it occurred to me that perhaps sleeping invokes a process similar to Ni, even for someone who is not an Ni-user. I have long been mystified by claims that Ni is subconscious, but this possibility would explain that. I hypothesize that Ni reflects the standard mode of thought of the subconscious mind, with Ni-users distinguishing themselves from others in being able to access this faculty consciously.

Thoughts?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,331 Posts
I thought the general consensus was that Ni was completely subconscious. Didn't Jung say that?

Either way.

I almost feel like Ni is bullshit as a dominant function, not real, you can't live permanently through a subconscious function that takes ages to absorb information.

It is my belief everyone on the planet has "Ni" and it gets used every day.

All the stereotypical Ni stuff is totally generic and so.. every day life.. that it's hard to see it as something people don't have.

I understand this is all about preferences etc, but come on, what you're describing with your colleague is precisely how people say Ni works.

People can easily relate to Ni and see themselves as an Ni dom.

How is Ni not simply a part of being human, I don't understand the mystique.
It's such a simple concept to grasp.


For centuries, perhaps thousands of years or more, people have been suggesting others to "take a break" when they keep banging their head against a wall.
Same thing here imo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,739 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I thought the general consensus was that Ni was completely subconscious. Didn't Jung say that?

Either way.

I almost feel like Ni is bullshit as a dominant function, not real, you can't live permanently through a subconscious function that takes ages to absorb information.

It is my belief everyone on the planet has "Ni" and it gets used every day.

All the stereotypical Ni stuff is totally generic and so.. every day life.. that it's hard to see it as something people don't have.

I understand this is all about preferences etc, but come on, what you're describing with your colleague is precisely how people say Ni works.

People can easily relate to Ni and see themselves as an Ni dom.

How is Ni not simply a part of being human, I don't understand the mystique.
It's such a simple concept to grasp.


For centuries, perhaps thousands of years or more, people have been suggesting others to "take a break" when they keep banging their head against a wall.
Same thing here imo.
There is a certain type that instinctively thinks about ideas in terms of how they connect to other ideas, and tries to pursue a single possibility based on it being probable (and in considering it probable does take longer than most to think about it). If this possibility turns out to be wrong then it can be difficult to re-orient, hence the idea that it "takes ages to absorb information". This tendency governs how I think about most everything and is contrary to the impulsiveness of Se, which makes it odd to me to characterize it as subconscious.

According to the theory of Socionics, everyone uses every function in specific capacities. MBTI is fuzzier on this point, though it follows that Ni does not pair up well with Si, as they represent different approaches to the same domain of subjective perception.

Speaking to this Si-dom, the way that she describes "using Ni" differs in an important way from my own; I don't have to sleep on these things. The breakthrough just comes to me in my daily life, partly because thinking about something else gives me a means to consider another approach to my original problem. Talking to other Ni-doms on here, I realized that there is much more to it than the eureka moments that people associate it with; it is about viewing the world in an interconnected sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,699 Posts
Ni for the most part seems very lucid. If you were to look in ESTPs, ESFPs, INTJs and ENTJs we would each test positive for higher levels of glutamate and dopamine on a hormonal panel. Took this from google:" Two brain chemicals may interact to contribute to the development of psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia, according to a new study. The results suggest abnormal levels of the neurotransmitterglutamate may lead to changes in the levels of another neurotransmitter, dopamine, causing the transition into psychosis"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
Perception of subconscious images seems to mean that those images emerge or arise to the mind without being consciously summoned. Now most people have described something "boiling" in their head or a thought "blooming" there... so everyone has these times where they describe inner images instead of tangible reality. Now the introverted intuitive type shouldn't have more of a conscious access to this intuition but what typically ends up happening is that they see themselves as "vessels" for it. They do not control it as much as they carry it or host it. This would imply that their awareness has actually shifted towards the collective unconscious, so to call it subconscious is no longer accurate...

It seems to escape most definitions. But really I think that the functions cannot be understood fully from the perspective of other functions. Intellectual thought can define some aspects of intuition, sensing and feeling but it cannot encapsulate them as a whole, unfortunately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,112 Posts
Why wouldn't Si be capable of doing just what you suggest? Si also organizes information into patterns. It just tries to form an ordered and complete pattern instead of the loose collection of references that Ni uses. I fail to see how Si couldn't use the same process.
(and yes, Si would have to use Ne to expand its field of view a bit, but the Si-Ne axis is perfectly set up to do just that)

Alternatively: maybe they use Ti instead? Ti also tends to work through things in the background to construct a logical argument.
 

·
Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
Joined
·
10,672 Posts
Ni isn't unconscious as a dominant function.
Ni is looking at the unconscious for clues.
Taking note of what comes and goes and threreby gaining a conscious map of the unconscious.
This is of course not complete, but good enough to understand things that for others is hidden.
It is therefore a very good pattern recognizer.
Since the content of the unconscious is in symbolic form, that is the form it also takes.
The question is then how this understanding of the world is expressed,
either through Fe or Te.
Te tries to find a collective structural/reasonable/intellectual way to convey it.
Fe tries to find a collective valuebased/normative/felt way to convey it.
Either way the expression will always be only a shadow of the content being expressed.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,331 Posts
Ni isn't unconscious as a dominant function.
Ni is looking at the unconscious for clues.
Taking note of what comes and goes and threreby gaining a conscious map of the unconscious.
This is of course not complete, but good enough to understand things that for others is hidden.
It is therefore a very good pattern recognizer.
Since the content of the unconscious is in symbolic form, that is the form it also takes.
The question is then how this understanding of the world is expressed,
either through Fe or Te.
Te tries to find a collective structural/reasonable/intellectual way to convey it.
Fe tries to find a collective valuebased/normative/felt way to convey it.
Either way the expression will always be only a shadow of the content being expressed.
Bull. Fucking. Shit.

You're saying Ni consciously looks at the unconscious.
Ludicrous.

Give me an example of you taking note of what comes and goes, an example of you understanding things others don't.

When people rattle off this crap about understanding things other don't etc, I can't help but think, where's the proof? What do the other people have to say? How do you know this? Did it actually happen? Is it a hypothetical situation? What did the other people pick up on that you didn't?

We're not all the hero. We're not all the best and most iNtUiTiVe person we know. We're not all more perceptive than all our friends. We're not all the "main guy". We're not the sole person connecting the dots and searching for hidden meanings in every situation.
 

·
Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
Joined
·
10,672 Posts
Bull. Fucking. Shit.

You're saying Ni consciously looks at the unconscious.
Ludicrous.

Give me an example of you taking note of what comes and goes, an example of you understanding things others don't.

When people rattle off this crap about understanding things other don't etc, I can't help but think, where's the proof? What do the other people have to say? How do you know this? Did it actually happen? Is it a hypothetical situation? What did the other people pick up on that you didn't?

We're not all the hero. We're not all the best and most iNtUiTiVe person we know. We're not all more perceptive than all our friends. We're not all the "main guy". We're not the sole person connecting the dots and searching for hidden meanings in every situation.
Gee such anger.
Why don't you redirect some of it to fixing your avatar for starters?

If and when you calm down I might consider discussing this with you.

I see you are into making demands and such.
Do you expect to hold me hostage in a discussion with you through anger and demands?
I think not.

Give me an example of you taking note of what comes and goes, an example of you understanding things others don't.
I will entertain you once, but I don't expect your behavior to better much.
So I'm banking on that you will keep trying to use anger expressions and demands as your tools for getting what you want.

This is a mild example of a Ni-prediction, but a poor one,
since you now have a vested interest in proving me wrong.

As an example I had an INFP who tried to fool me out of a contract.
I had noted his poor negotiation behavior with other people.
So when he started his stuff, I knew something was up.
I declined and found out later what he planned to do,
due to the fate of another person with a similar contract.
This person suffered a lot due to the new arrangement.
But, my Ni saw it coming.
Because of this, I refused to do further buisness with him and his ENFP friend.
Saving me a lot of headache longterm.

As you see, Ni is about anticipating the future based on the past.
This does not mean that we always are right.
Even though the stereotype makes it out like that.
In fact, when we are wrong, we end up in all sorts of problems because we are too sure in our prediction.

Like when I bought a stock due to my predictions
and failed to sell because I dismissed all evidence to the contrary.
Leading to me losing quite a lot of money.

All the types are limited and onesided.
Please take this into consideration, I'm not trying to be arrogant here.
But if your angry/demanding behavior persists, I will stop responding to you.
That is a guarantee.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,331 Posts
Gee such anger.
Why don't you redirect some of it to fixing your avatar for starters?

If and when you calm down I might consider discussing this with you.

I see you are into making demands and such.
Do you expect to hold me hostage in a discussion with you through anger and demands?
I think not.


I will entertain you once, but I don't expect your behavior to better much.
So I'm banking on that you will keep trying to use anger expressions and demands as your tools for getting what you want.

This is a mild example of a Ni-prediction, but a poor one,
since you now have a vested interest in proving me wrong.

As an example I had an INFP who tried to fool me out of a contract.
I had noted his poor negotiation behavior with other people.
So when he started his stuff, I knew something was up.
I declined and found out later what he planned to do,
due to the fate of another person with a similar contract.
This person suffered a lot due to the new arrangement.
But, my Ni saw it coming.
Because of this, I refused to do further buisness with him and his ENFP friend.
Saving me a lot of headache longterm.

As you see, Ni is about anticipating the future based on the past.
This does not mean that we always are right.
Even though the stereotype makes it out like that.
In fact, when we are wrong, we end up in all sorts of problems because we are too sure in our prediction.

Like when I bought a stock due to my predictions
and failed to sell because I dismissed all evidence to the contrary.
Leading to me losing quite a lot of money.

All the types are limited and onesided.
Please take this into consideration, I'm not trying to be arrogant here.
But if your angry/demanding behavior persists, I will stop responding to you.
That is a guarantee.
What anger? I was trying to get some answers from you.
Not sure what the attack on my avatar is about, haha.

That's hardly an Ni prediction, haha, it's a piss poor attempt at reverse psychology, based upon incorrect assumptions at that.

Literally no anger here. That's just how I talk when I remove the "be a nice little boy don't wanna get banned" filter.

Your example of Ni with regards to noticing odd behaviour re: the INFP is an example of Se btw.

I realise the two are linked, supposedly - I find this connection makes it all too easy for high Se users to deceive themselves into believing they're a high Ni user.

Where exactly does the divide between Ni and Se occur?

Simply piecing together information we are given (Se).. isn't Ni.. body language, tone of voice, sniffing out deception in this manner, is Se. It is being perceptive and putting the pieces together.

Where, precisely, does this process shift from simply making sense of Se observations, into Ni?

It would appear to me, the general understanding of Ni in a lot of examples I see online, is really just any judging function making sense and coming to conclusions based on Se observations.

Anticipating the future based on Se observations to me, seems like a logical, ordinary human thing to do.
It doesn't suggest a shift to Ni to me.

Truly curious where exactly we shift from Se+J function to Ni.

Ni alone can't make decisions or come to conclusions, it is a perception function, it is supposed to be a way of taking in information.

This information is made sense of via your judging functions.

I feel there's some kind of misunderstanding of the introverted perceiving functions on this sense.
People rave on about Ni magically coming to conclusions when that's not how it works at all, imo, it can't, it's not a judging function.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
200 Posts
yes I think ISFPs minds work purely subconsciously. ISFPs are poets and artists because we can just "flow" when we Create and our works can come out profound and insightful. Poetry is called a "physical" art and not one "of the mind" which makes sense because we take in information and have it come out with writing or drawing. I think that's why people who are not deep "thinkers" can think deeply by writing
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,331 Posts
yes I think ISFPs minds work purely subconsciously. ISFPs are poets and artists because we can just "flow" when we Create and our works can come out profound and insightful. Poetry is called a "physical" art and not one "of the mind" which makes sense because we take in information and have it come out with writing or drawing. I think that's why people who are not deep "thinkers" can think deeply by writing
Are ISFPs all vegans who do yoga?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
593 Posts
I thought the general consensus was that Ni was completely subconscious. Didn't Jung say that?

Either way.

I almost feel like Ni is bullshit as a dominant function, not real, you can't live permanently through a subconscious function that takes ages to absorb information.

It is my belief everyone on the planet has "Ni" and it gets used every day.

All the stereotypical Ni stuff is totally generic and so.. every day life.. that it's hard to see it as something people don't have.

I understand this is all about preferences etc, but come on, what you're describing with your colleague is precisely how people say Ni works.

People can easily relate to Ni and see themselves as an Ni dom.

How is Ni not simply a part of being human, I don't understand the mystique.
It's such a simple concept to grasp.


For centuries, perhaps thousands of years or more, people have been suggesting others to "take a break" when they keep banging their head against a wall.
Same thing here imo.
I think you are missing part of Ni. In Jung's original description he emphasizes that not all of Ni is subconscious. I think you are taking it from a very Se-Ni, with Se higher up, perspective. I say this because you are focused on its subconscious aspect while Jung specifically talks about how Ni dominants are concerned with images produced from sensations. The sensations are repressed, displayed by their conscious bodily awareness fading away as they view the movie that plays out.

*Feels pain in heart*
*watches man get shot through the heart with an arrow, he falls, he looks around for help, and so on apparently infinitely* jung did say Ni was inexhaustible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
Few more thoughts.

Conscious/unconscious are structures of the psyche and partially responsible for dynamics, opposition and conflicts of within each type.

Let's just use intuition defined as "indirect" or "unconfirmed" perception, both as opposed to verified sensing perception - and to avoid calling intuition itself unconscious*. Yet saying it is unconfirmed while sensed content can be justified with absolute certainty is also a bit off because Jung specifically mentions intuitives have conviction in their perceptions - and our sense organs can fail us which could permantaley distort our perception of reality.

Then lets view extroverted intuitive type perceiving-into the object; intuition builds up and shapes the object (active). In the case of the introverted intuitive type receives intuition; intuition shapes the the subject (passive).

Now the difference would be purely active/passive. Which is interesting because Jung also referenced Blake, who differentiated between "prolific" and "devouring" type. But this would indicate that this distinction can be applied to sensing as well; making extroverted sensing type the active participant while introverted sensing type is a passive subject to sensations.

The point being: Jung's terminology hasn't been perfected (as demonstrated by confusion caused by unconscious/conscious, objective/subjective etc.); he purposefully avoided making absolute claims - understanding that human psyche rarely is absolute - but this also means his definitions cannot be taken as they are while expecting that these theories can immediately be proven or verified. Now personally I don't see this as a massive problem - functions are just one way to conceptualize the mind and that goes hand-in-hand with the overall unreliability of psychology just fine. You cannot ever achieve objectivity in a field that studies mostly subjects.

* It could be unconscious in the sense it is not consciously thought of (like the rational functions are) but then sensation should be seen as unconscious too.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
601 Posts
What anger? I was trying to get some answers from you.
Not sure what the attack on my avatar is about, haha.

That's hardly an Ni prediction, haha, it's a piss poor attempt at reverse psychology, based upon incorrect assumptions at that.

Literally no anger here. That's just how I talk when I remove the "be a nice little boy don't wanna get banned" filter.

Your example of Ni with regards to noticing odd behaviour re: the INFP is an example of Se btw.

I realise the two are linked, supposedly - I find this connection makes it all too easy for high Se users to deceive themselves into believing they're a high Ni user.

Where exactly does the divide between Ni and Se occur?

Simply piecing together information we are given (Se).. isn't Ni.. body language, tone of voice, sniffing out deception in this manner, is Se. It is being perceptive and putting the pieces together.

Where, precisely, does this process shift from simply making sense of Se observations, into Ni?

It would appear to me, the general understanding of Ni in a lot of examples I see online, is really just any judging function making sense and coming to conclusions based on Se observations.

Anticipating the future based on Se observations to me, seems like a logical, ordinary human thing to do.
It doesn't suggest a shift to Ni to me.

Truly curious where exactly we shift from Se+J function to Ni.

Ni alone can't make decisions or come to conclusions, it is a perception function, it is supposed to be a way of taking in information.

This information is made sense of via your judging functions.

I feel there's some kind of misunderstanding of the introverted perceiving functions on this sense.
People rave on about Ni magically coming to conclusions when that's not how it works at all, imo, it can't, it's not a judging function.
Here is the second time we disagree. Although I am not versed in MBTI as well as others, what @Red Magician says, being Ni dominant makes perfect sense, especially relating to the past to predict the future. Lately, I been trying to observe my Ni in action (impossible, because its unconscious), but I now realise how much it used past memories to predict the future (and accurately).

Let's put this into context. At one point you mentioned you can't see Ni when you tried typing me as an ISTJ (blegh). Is that why you don't agree with him? As you said in your own words in a discussion we had, Ni can be over-mystified because the description sounds "cool". Why can't Ni work in simple ways Red Magician described? After all, it's all a matter of perspective, and as you said, it's hard to see your dominant function sometimes (especially considering Ni is unconscious, but more conscious for Ni-dominant types). I for one, can actually clearly see the Se-Ni axis in his post, even though the argument could be made that he used a bit of past memories (Not sure if you can call that Si) to help his Ni. No problem there.

Side-note, I do recall you typed yourself as an INTP at one point, I think that type suits you, as your "argument" reminds me of similar arguments with my INTP friend. But just my two cents.
 

·
Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
Joined
·
10,672 Posts
What anger? I was trying to get some answers from you.
Ah so you have found anger expressions to be a useful way to get the answers you want.
And use them regardless of your mood, interesting.

Not sure what the attack on my avatar is about, haha.
It is not an attack, your avatar is not showing.
As is most avatars on this site, as people havn't reuploaded them
after the server issues a month ago.
If you see your avatar, I can tell you that I do not, and probably not most others.
I'm guessing that whatever you see may just be an image in your browser cache.

That's hardly an Ni prediction, haha, it's a piss poor attempt at reverse psychology, based upon incorrect assumptions at that.
I don't feel like answering your questions.
I actually don't like the whole spirit of this conversation.

If you are so sure about your stance, feel free to tell it how it is.
I'll read it and reply what I think.
 

·
Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
Joined
·
10,672 Posts
I for one, can actually clearly see the Se-Ni axis in his post, even though the argument could be made that he used a bit of past memories (Not sure if you can call that Si) to help his Ni.
Thinking that Si is about the past is a big mistake.
It is actually about the archetypal/instinctual reaction to sensory information in the moment.
Both Se and Si is in the moment.
A Si type needs Ne to spot anyting outside of now.
Ne is of course based in Si and so Si will of course be the food for Ne predictions,
just as Se is the food for Ni predictions.

That is why it is so hard to tease apart,
one could of course start to explain the inner workings from a subjective perspective,
but personally I don't go around with a notebook
that I fill up with all the Ni-musings that goes into a scenario.
Hence it is more or less impossible to reconstruct.

It is just as unfair to ask a Ni-dom to reconstruct it as to ask a Ti-dom to reconstruct
their inner musings when they solved some math problem a year ago.
Of course there is little recollection of the details.
 
1 - 20 of 161 Posts
Top