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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, so this is probably going to get extremely complicated and drawn-out and smell like pizza and root beer, but here it goes...

I keep trying to figure out Nightwing's personality (Dick Grayson). I've read every single issue of his from before the New 52, most of the New 52 issues, and lots of his adventures in between. Thing is, as much as I keep thinking I know the guy (heck, look at my username), I'm stuck between 2 personalities.

The majority of people label him as either an ENFP or ENFJ. A few have attempted to label him as ESTJ, ESFP, and ENTP, but the vote is mostly equally ENFx (he's definitely a mix of the two. Personally, I feel like he's an ENFP (no bias at all... *whistles and covers up the label under my username*) but understand the ENFJ. A lot of it is because, yeah, I'm an ENFP. And even now, people always type me as either an ENTP when they talk to me or an ENFJ when they listen to how I describe myself. But I can relate to Dick on almost every level. And I realize that may prevent me from being able to contribute this as an intellectual proposal. But I'll present my argument to the audience. Sorry in advance for the length, but that's what happens when an ENFP has something on his mind for too long. *cracks knuckles* Alright, let's get started....

So first, let's talk about stereotypes. I don't mean this to be an analysis or complaint of what types are like, but I feel like I should begin by saying that most stereotypes of the types are much more extreme examples of what the types are. For instance, I have never considered myself (or other ENFPs) as "Champions of a cause." Yeah, I get the whole Fi and "ENFPs are one of the more of the naive, feelings-first types" thing, but I usually only see Fi manifested as thought-out personal opinions, ideals that are true to oneself, and genuineness of character, not as "I need a cause and I need to rally to fight the whale oppressors mlarrrgh." Also, I hate that when people are asked to describe types in the hypothetical room, ENFPs are known as "the fun one that has crazy ideas." We're not ENTPs before they mature. We're the everlasting Understanders-of-People who happen to always be in motion (that's what our Ne does). Finally, no one ever talks about the "great ENFP leader" simply because ENFPs usually aren't leaders. It's a discussion for another day, but I think we have the capability to be leaders (maybe not the most effective, but capable), as I'll talk about later. But in my experience, an ENFP leader is

Now to ENFJ stereotypes. I don't know if it's because we have opposite functions or because I somehow haven't looked into it enough, but the ENFJs I've met (who knew they were ENFJs) act very different to how ENFJs are described online.... I mean, I like ENFJs as much as the next guy so I hate to say it, but to me, immature ENFJs act less like "hypnotic, empathic leaders" and more like... well, doormats. And mature ENFJs act like others-first counselors. Not that there's anything wrong with either. But the ones I know would sooner die than be in charge of anything or anyone, and are so sensitive and nervous that they shake when they talk. In addition, ENFJ leaders don't seem to make their followers equal to themselves, but rather put everyone ahead of themselves. So I don't really understand the stereotype, but maybe someone can help me here :happy:

Finally, we get to Dick Grayson. Which is, y'know, just what this thread is all about. There's definitely the argument that the personality will be different under different writers (compare Chuck Dixon Dick, Judd Winick Dick, and Christopher Yost Dick). I completely understand that. But I'm trying to make the distinction between the "main tree" that is most consistent with his character and the "branches" that are close but different interpretations of him. Obviously, I view that main tree as an ENFP. I think that he's been one except in cases such as the Dick&Damian era, some New 52 stories, and new spinoffs such as Injustice. In other words, he is only recently becoming an ENFJ rather than the classic ENFP.

First of all, immature ENFPs are known to be happy-go-lucky when they are kids. The only word that comes to my mind when describing my child years is "sunny," which Dick was when he was Robin . Always smiling and energetic, which, I admit, ENFJs are known to be also. But I would say that based on what I've seen, immature ENFJs are more accurately described as "sweet" than "sunny." I know. Weak argument. It's the pizza.

As Dick gets older, however, his demeanor changes, and the maturity argument starts to make more sense. An ENFP's life cycle is definitely known to be a sunny childhood, introverted/"depressed" teenager, rebellious adolescence, independent "enlightened" passage, and responsible-yet-optimistic adulthood. And let's not forget the most ENFP transition into male adulthood ever printed in comic book history (page 1)(page 2) (page 3). I can elaborate on all this if you want, but you'll have to trust me until then :wink: Based on what I know about ENFJs and remember about the comics, I actually see Donna Troy as someone who starts out as an ENFJ and turns into an ENFP.

Also, ENFPs are notorious for exploding when their lives are put in a box. And what is the turning point in Dick's life? When he gets tired of Bruce's tiny box that he always puts him in, and breaks free. He's free. Now, most of us think that Bruce is either an INTJ or ISTJ. Personally, I prefer to think of him as an ISTJ base with an INTJ mod. So just suppose something with me here for a second. Just suppose Dick is an ENFP. Alright? Now, just suppose that Bruce is an ISTJ. And think of how that kind of life would turn out. An ENFP child raised under an ISTJ father's-like roof, sticking to his standard of the mission, living the way he says to from 8 until 18. Just think about that. Eh? See what I'm getting at? Really think about it.

And, remember, just because he's witty, charming, and caring to the extent that he counsels people doesn't mean that he's an ENFJ. Remember, we have all those traits too. And if you think he's an ENFJ just because of the counseling part, remember that we are the definition of "deep conversations." Think about what he does in the classic Hush story. In fact, listen to the way he talks at any point in the Hush story. But specifically, let's look at when he's in the Batcave here. He just told Bruce that he'd been talking for 10 minutes and that he expected him to talk back (that's a discussion, not a counseling session) after Bruce saw his friend get shot in front of him by the Joker. But look closely at the way he talks, even. From the main point (concern) to a reason (Joker's caught) to a random muttering (maybe we can hold on to him). Sounds like a drop of Ne to me. So he starts by discussing what happened with Joker, then moves to the mushy affection before suggesting they go blow off some steam by having fun (ENFP trade secret). Oh, and not to undo all that thinking from the previous paragraph, but that reminds me of one of the best comic depictions of an ENFPxINTJ interaction.

Of course, all this is incomplete without talking about the functions. I already gave my piece about his Ne, and I'd say while he does admittedly have a high Ni, it's mostly just knowing what to say to people. As far as T, all you need to do is look at how he acts whenever he's in a group outside the Batcave. Whether it's the Outsiders, the Justice League in Obsidian Age, or the Titans, the mission always comes first, and Dick's leading people towards it. He's not "winning" them over to do what he wants (FeNi), but is made the leader because he is the most qualified to reach a goal (Te). As far as Ti goes, he's never one to think from A-B-C-D all the way to Z. It's always from A straight to Z. He can leave the mechanics to Tim, who would be interested enough to look into it. "Blockbuster's the top dog in the Haven? Guess I'll just knock on the front door." "I need dirt to put Desmond away? Plan A should work fine; I don't need to analyze Tarantula's brother or anything, he probably won't smash the tape." He does sometimes "process" things, but that's very commonly associated with Ne, Fi, Te, or Si, depending on the issue, versus just Ti and maybe Ni. Some might say he's got Se because he's happy-go-lucky and says he likes feeling a thrill, but come on, he grew up in the circus. If anything, that's Si. Besides, with all the talk about "the good old days" all the time, how he doesn't seem to prefer new methods (he uses all of Bruce's methods), and how he sometimes doesn't rest when something's on his mind (his whole Blockbuster takedown), he shows Si. Also, he always seems to hang out with people from when he was Robin. Think about it. Do you remember him ever talking to Stephanie or Cassandra like he does Bruce or Babs, or Starman or Jessie Quick or anyone like he does with the Titans? As for F, I can see how he could have Fe as a relator, but that's all shattered when I read this, which I encourage you to read. There's just no seeing him as Fe again, is there? The anger outbursts, the firm ideals (look here if you don't believe), the alone time to process things (just think of what he does whenever someone close to him dies or something major happens. Donna's death. Dick snapping when he kills the Joker. Facing the fact that he has to take up Bruce's mantle. He goes somewhere secluded to process his feelings). Not to mention he almost always refuses to join a team because of Donna (FiSi). Plus, let's not forget that he Fi'ed so hard that he's killed people. Okay, one was revived and the other indirect, but you get the point.

So there you have it. There's now no doubt in my mind that the classic Dick Grayson is an ENFP. Alright, maybe that was overkill. Okay, yeah, it was overkill. Probably more appropriate to put it on Tumblr, but whatever. So, what do you think? Do you agree, disagree, wanna go hang out and eat pizza and drink root beer?
 

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Full disclosure: Not a DC expert. At all. But as far as Nightwing goes I always saw him as either ESFP or ENFP. This is based on the few comics I read and on the multitude of pages from different comic pages posted by fans online. He is clearly extroverted (but isn't that what we need from any Robin working with the introverted Batman?) He seemed to thrive on flexibility and doesn't seem as contented with a plan. And his feelings seem very important to him and used these to make choices. His "narration" seems F ruled, very deeply personal, which also points to Fi. But I don't know enough to say Se or Ne. Didn't someone in the comics say that Nightwing and Batman had so much in common, yet were also contrasts? If Nightwing is ENFP and Batman is ISTJ, this statement could ring true: Same funtions, different order.

Not that I wish to drift too far from your original post with a tangent, but I have to ask: are you familiar with the out of comics versions of Dick Grayson, particularly animated shows? You seem to know a lot about the character and I always wondered how similiar/different this character was from the comics. Which adaption is the favorite or the most accurate? Do his types change pver the adaptions. I am particularly curious about Batman: The Animated Series and Young Justice.
 

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Nightwing is an ENFP, with Batman being an INTJ. His Ne compliments Bruce's Ni (a good example would be during the Hush story, read through their conversations and interactions, Ne and Ni), it's the reason why he arguably had the best relationship with Batman out of all the Robins. The only other one would be Tim Drake, whose ENTJ nature also resulted in a good relationship with Bruce.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Not that I wish to drift too far from your original post with a tangent, but I have to ask: are you familiar with the out of comics versions of Dick Grayson, particularly animated shows? You seem to know a lot about the character and I always wondered how similiar/different this character was from the comics. Which adaption is the favorite or the most accurate? Do his types change pver the adaptions. I am particularly curious about Batman: The Animated Series and Young Justice.
*Smiles and cracks knuckles*

Haha, just kidding around. But in addition to my complete agreement with your observations in your first paragraph (especially the part about Dick and Bruce being contrasts, which is said very often by Alfred; nice catch!), I'd be happy to answer your question :) I'd say, first, yeah, his out-of-comics versions often differ from how he acts in comics. They all have a heavy blend of him, but I don't think any had a 100% match except for the original Dick Grayson from Batman: The Animated Series (not the New Animated Series).

Teen Titans Dick was similar to the New Teen Titans era Dick (the brooding and most-skilled nature especially that I talk about in my OP) as an xSTJ-esque or "shadow" ENFP type (although the cartoon gave him more of a smirking "cool factor" while the comics version was just serious). "The Batman" actually had a very good representation of how Dick (as Robin and Nightwing) was in the comics, and was a good example of a stereotypical immature ENFP (only thing is that comics Dick is an extremely mature ENFP; some immature ENFP comic variants can be seen in the various interpretations after Devin Grayson gave up the writing title, including "The Return of Ra's al Ghul"). "Under the Red Hood" Dick was close too (especially the part where Batman dives after the helicopter leaving Dick to say "So do you want me to-- should I--? Okay, I guess I'll take care of this."), but gave a little too much of an Se flair, so this is an example of an immature ExFP (strong S) Nightwing seen in some comic variants that exaggerate his lightheartedness and thrill-seekingness (One Year Later Nightwing). Young Justice Nightwing is a good example of a mature ENxP (strong F, but higher Te) Nightwing, and is one of the closest incarnations we've seen. He's Te>Ti, but shows his Te with Fi more often than he empathizes with people, so that's why he sometimes looks like an ENTP. Plus the very immature ENxP Robin years. The Arkham Nightwing shows an immature ExFP (strong N) Nightwing, shown well when he talks after every side mission (he shows high Si with all the talks of the "good old days"). I haven't enough of the animated movies (only Son of Batman and Batman vs. Robin) so I can't help there yet. The old Animated Series showed the perfect example of a calm, mature ENFx (strong F) Dick Grayson (just look at when Batman calls him at college for help with Poison Ivy trying to act clean). I don't know what type the New Animated Series Nightwing is (I'm thinking ISTP), but that was kind of when everything in the animated series universe changed and everyone became a huge tool....

My personal favorite is the most accurate, which is the old Animated Series. After that, I think that my favorite is either Young Justice or Arkham, which is also the order of the next most accurate :) Now that I think about it, I want to watch Batman Bad Blood and Justice League vs. Teen Titans ;) If you haven't read anything about Nightwing, I recommend it highly :) One of the good things is that he's only had about 150 issues of the pre-New 52 series and about 50 or so of the New 52 series until now, and they're all relatively easy to go from start to finish :)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Nightwing is an ENFP, with Batman being an INTJ. His Ne compliments Bruce's Ni (a good example would be during the Hush story, read through their conversations and interactions, Ne and Ni), it's the reason why he arguably had the best relationship with Batman out of all the Robins. The only other one would be Tim Drake, whose ENTJ nature also resulted in a good relationship with Bruce.
Glad we agree that Dick's an ENFP. I do agree that in the more modern interpretations of Batman (those that follow and emulate the Frank Miller Batman) are INTJ, including Hush, but I'd argue that there's a very strong case for him being an ISTJ by function. Also, Tim might be an ENTJ in the New 52 Teen Titans, but I disagree that he's always been that way. From what I've read, he's acted mostly as an INTP until the New 52. I can discuss it if you want (would be fun even), but yeah, that's what I think.
 

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Glad we agree that Dick's an ENFP. I do agree that in the more modern interpretations of Batman (those that follow and emulate the Frank Miller Batman) are INTJ, including Hush, but I'd argue that there's a very strong case for him being an ISTJ by function. Also, Tim might be an ENTJ in the New 52 Teen Titans, but I disagree that he's always been that way. From what I've read, he's acted mostly as an INTP until the New 52. I can discuss it if you want (would be fun even), but yeah, that's what I think.
I don't think Dick being an ENFP has ever actually been in doubt, he has been rather consistent in character from day 1 of his appearance, even through the new 52, and we're also seeing it in his Rebirth issue. I've seen ENFJ typings, which ultimately just confuse me.

I think if one takes a rather superficial or cursory view of his behaviours and habits one could make the case for ISTJ. One could also make the case for INTJ but again it would only be a superficial assessment of his character. I always say to look into the deeper thought processes and It wasn't until the Bronze Age of comics (around 1970) when Batman stories actually began to fully delve into his actual way of thinking, as a means of good storytelling. This is when his Ni became increasingly apparent.

I also think Tim shows his cognitive processes much clearer when he assumes the mantle of Red Robin, even before the New 52. He is ultimately a task-oriented achiever, utilising Te-Ni to bolster his detective capabilities. We can see that he and Batman are very similar in that respect, and they resonate a lot in how they approach problems (which probably explains why Bruce always saw Tim as the more industry focused of the Robins, who could surpass even himself in detective skills). His abilities to lead, as well as be self-sufficient and independent, both stem from his Te.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I don't think Dick being an ENFP has ever actually been in doubt, he has been rather consistent in character from day 1 of his appearance, even through the new 52, and we're also seeing it in his Rebirth issue. I've seen ENFJ typings, which ultimately just confuse me.
Completely agree. Yeah, I think that it's pretty popular to view him as an ENFP, but I also have seen a lot of people claim that he's a mature ENFJ (about half). Which confuses me too, because as I said, most immature ENFJs that I've seen seem to act as nervous-but-friendly people-pleasers (not that I'm trying to criticize them), and mature ENFJs that I've seen act almost like hippie "we're all in this together" counselors who put everyone before themselves (as opposed to equal). In other words, extraverted INFJs. Again, I'm not trying to criticize; it just seems like they're the ultimate "healer" archetypes, if that makes sense. Which Dick doesn't completely project, so I just don't understand why he's typed that way so often. Plus, it's probably also due to the dumb stereotype of ENFPs being hyper energetic social activists. I'm not the most educated on types, though, including ENFJs, so I don't know how accurate I am on that.

I think if one takes a rather superficial or cursory view of his behaviours and habits one could make the case for ISTJ. One could also make the case for INTJ but again it would only be a superficial assessment of his character. I always say to look into the deeper thought processes and It wasn't until the Bronze Age of comics (around 1970) when Batman stories actually began to fully delve into his actual way of thinking, as a means of good storytelling. This is when his Ni became increasingly apparent.
Oh I agree here too. Bruce is definitely an IxTJ and one can make the case flawlessly for either, just as Dick would be an ENFx. I think this example, though, depends on which version one prefers. I could talk about these characters 24/7, but to make it brief, there are two versions of Bruce. One is the Caped Crusader who originates from the Silver Age "The Untold Legend of the Batman," whose entire impetus in life and nocturnal career is to keep up the good fight for the vow he made to his parents. This is the one who actually makes a nightly career out of crimefighting, the one who is out every night not for a plan to end the source of crime, but to patrol the streets to eternally fight it, oblivious to the sad reality that the war will never end. He clearly is Si-Te-Fi-Ne. The other version is the Dark Knight Detective who comes from Frank Miller's run, especially "Batman: Year One," whose motivation in life and nocturnal career is to follow the plan to take crime down from the central nucleus and branching out sequentially. This is the one who started with a plan to take down the mob, which was the head of crime, the one who does detective work because it fits the bigger scheme, the one who fights crimes as they appear, and only has not achieved his goal because both the size of the goal he visualizes and the fact that reality perpetually changes the details of the plan and forces him to adapt to it. He clearly is Ni-Te-Fi-Se. Both of these versions are always present in Batman, and neither is completely absent, but it is most difficult to determine which is the true Batman. Gah. I can write a whole analysis thread on these characters like I did with Dick. Heck, I can make a whole show for DC Entertainment. Don't suppose you have their ear, huh? ;)

I also think Tim shows his cognitive processes much clearer when he assumes the mantle of Red Robin, even before the New 52. He is ultimately a task-oriented achiever, utilising Te-Ni to bolster his detective capabilities. We can see that he and Batman are very similar in that respect, and they resonate a lot in how they approach problems (which probably explains why Bruce always saw Tim as the more industry focused of the Robins, who could surpass even himself in detective skills). His abilities to lead, as well as be self-sufficient and independent, both stem from his Te.
Interesting. Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Time, but ENTJ doesn't really match up with me. I agree that Tim is a task-oriented achiever, which is why I typed him as an INTP. But I saw him as using Ti-Ne in his detective work. I always viewed Tim as the Robin that would always be stuck as "the detective Robin;" if he ever donned the cowl, it wouldn't be to reach a goal (even to end crime) or to become a symbol or icon like Dick did with the mantle (both somewhat Te), but to be "the Detective superhero" that the League would call if they needed someone to analyze a situation (Ti) and to honor Bruce's memory (Si). Like, instead of people saying, "Hey, Batman's here. Now we'll win," they would probably say, "Hey, this crime isn't making sense. Hey, Batman, can you analyze it with science or something? Everyone else, let's go do the mission." I always also saw him as being stuck as Robin because he had no way to evolve into anything else (Si) but didn't have enough Ne-Fi-Te to step out of the shadow and create his own identity like Dick did. Even as pre-N52 Red Robin, I didn't really see the whole thing as achieving a goal or crusade (though it was his goal to prove that Bruce was still alive) as much as it was that he couldn't handle that Bruce was gone (Fe?-Si) and he racked his brain for days on end (Ne-Si) until he found a detail so small that nobody believed him (Ti), and went hyper-analysis on it. Plus the way he took the issue of being replaced as Robin as if he should be expected to remain as Robin sounds kind of Si-Fe. I actually don't see any pre-N52 examples of Te, Se, or Fi (except when he asserted that Batman should always have a Robin), and I don't remember him having any cases of Ni more than Ti. I think his Robin years and One Year Later Robin era showed a very strong immature INTP and mature INTP example. I believe he's a Thinker more than an Action-er. So I think he is an IxTP. I dunno. Have any screenshots or examples or anything that would help me see where you're comin' from?
 

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....

My personal favorite is the most accurate, which is the old Animated Series. After that, I think that my favorite is either Young Justice or Arkham, which is also the order of the next most accurate :) Now that I think about it, I want to watch Batman Bad Blood and Justice League vs. Teen Titans ;) If you haven't read anything about Nightwing, I recommend it highly :) One of the good things is that he's only had about 150 issues of the pre-New 52 series and about 50 or so of the New 52 series until now, and they're all relatively easy to go from start to finish :)
Thanks for the detailed response. I am very glad to know that his personality in Batman: The Animated series is fairly accurate, as this is one of my favorite "Robin" adaptations. I always seemed to enjoy episodes better when he was in them. Though I was rather dissapointed with him in The New Adventures, because his Nightwing persona seemed like a different personality altogether. I am all for character development, but for me, the difference was jarring. Then I saw Young Justice Nightwing and I had the opposite reaction. Sure, he was more mature than when he was Robin, but I felt it was still the same guy. THIS is the version that helped me see Nightwing wasn't the out of character, long haired, kinda whiny character I had seen before; but that he was an excellent character that had a well-deserved fanbase. It's nice to know also that each adaptation handles him quite differently and explainations for each version vary. Nightwing seemed to change quite a lot based on all you said; my only question would be one for those handling such stories: Why do you change this character so much?
Anyway, I am grateful for your response; I know a lot more about Nightwing now.
 

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Oh I agree here too. Bruce is definitely an IxTJ and one can make the case flawlessly for either, just as Dick would be an ENFx. I think this example, though, depends on which version one prefers. I could talk about these characters 24/7, but to make it brief, there are two versions of Bruce. One is the Caped Crusader who originates from the Silver Age "The Untold Legend of the Batman," whose entire impetus in life and nocturnal career is to keep up the good fight for the vow he made to his parents. This is the one who actually makes a nightly career out of crimefighting, the one who is out every night not for a plan to end the source of crime, but to patrol the streets to eternally fight it, oblivious to the sad reality that the war will never end. He clearly is Si-Te-Fi-Ne.
Whilst I agree with the latter half of your statement, this here doesn't clearly denote Si at all. It is actually indicative of Te-Fi. That's why I believe that a case can be made for Silver Age Batman being either Si or Ni, albeit a superficial one, based on habits and behaviours, not cognitive processes.



Interesting. Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Time, but ENTJ doesn't really match up with me. I agree that Tim is a task-oriented achiever, which is why I typed him as an INTP. But I saw him as using Ti-Ne in his detective work. I always viewed Tim as the Robin that would always be stuck as "the detective Robin;" if he ever donned the cowl, it wouldn't be to reach a goal (even to end crime) or to become a symbol or icon like Dick did with the mantle (both somewhat Te), but to be "the Detective superhero" that the League would call if they needed someone to analyze a situation (Ti) and to honor Bruce's memory (Si). Like, instead of people saying, "Hey, Batman's here. Now we'll win," they would probably say, "Hey, this crime isn't making sense. Hey, Batman, can you analyze it with science or something? Everyone else, let's go do the mission." I always also saw him as being stuck as Robin because he had no way to evolve into anything else (Si) but didn't have enough Ne-Fi-Te to step out of the shadow and create his own identity like Dick did. Even as pre-N52 Red Robin, I didn't really see the whole thing as achieving a goal or crusade (though it was his goal to prove that Bruce was still alive) as much as it was that he couldn't handle that Bruce was gone (Fe?-Si) and he racked his brain for days on end (Ne-Si) until he found a detail so small that nobody believed him (Ti), and went hyper-analysis on it. Plus the way he took the issue of being replaced as Robin as if he should be expected to remain as Robin sounds kind of Si-Fe. I actually don't see any pre-N52 examples of Te, Se, or Fi (except when he asserted that Batman should always have a Robin), and I don't remember him having any cases of Ni more than Ti. I think his Robin years and One Year Later Robin era showed a very strong immature INTP and mature INTP example. I believe he's a Thinker more than an Action-er. So I think he is an IxTP. I dunno. Have any screenshots or examples or anything that would help me see where you're comin' from?
Well I think you're simply misinterpreting Tim's main motives and thought patterns. What you described was Ni, seeing one detail that is contrary to everything else, yet using it to hone in on one conclusion, in spite of all other evidence to the contrary. That certainly isn't Ne. Even the moment in which he comes to the realisation that Bruce must be alive is a clear moment of intuition taking over his reason. He couldn't handle that Bruce was gone because Bruce was like a father to him. Also because Batman was a core part of what had become his own identity, a part of him, Robin. In fact, he grows frustrated at his situation and only lashes out when he has hit a wall in finding Bruce or when Damian is being a bit of a prick. In the former scenario it is clear that is his Se, wanting results, wanting to have something to show for his efforts. What does he do when he gets in a rut like this, where he can't just power through with Te-Se, he falls back on Ni. He reassures himself in his own intuition: "I am not crazy", "Bruce is alive", "I am not wrong" etc. The latter was an outburst because Damian (in typical Damian fashion) was being a little shit about something that was close to Tim. His identity. That was what the Robin mantle was for Tim, it was a testament to his skill, his determination and his devotion to Bruce, that's why it was almost a slight to him when Dick seemingly shunted him off in favour of Damian. That's inferior Fi at work, ENTJs do not take kindly to the hijacking of their own efforts and of things personal to them, but unlike a type with Fi higher in their stack, the ENTJ would simply lash out to stop this from happening as their Fi isn't developed. The narration blocks in his comic do well to emphasise his exact thought processes as well. During a fight, during his investigations, they way he collects large amounts of sensory data, only to have it spark an insight in him (Ni-Se), the way he objectively measures the facts of a situation before establishing the most efficient way to solve it (Te). There aren't really specific examples because it runs through the entire series.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Whilst I agree with the latter half of your statement, this here doesn't clearly denote Si at all. It is actually indicative of Te-Fi. That's why I believe that a case can be made for Silver Age Batman being either Si or Ni, albeit a superficial one, based on habits and behaviours, not cognitive processes.
...Wait, what? I'm confused. Which part do you agree with? Isn't going around doing the exact same thing without any signs of reassessing the situation and being stuck in the same loop for eternity because it's what you've always done based on a vow you made to your parents decades ago the ultimate sign of Si? Wouldn't Te be constantly adjusting the plan with updated, relevant, objective information to spearhead towards an ultimate goal rather than to be stuck in an ongoing process for that goal? And for the last sentence, is what you're saying basically that he's a stereotypical ISTJ but not an ISTJ by function in that version? So what would a ISTJ-by-function Batman look like?

Well I think you're simply misinterpreting Tim's main motives and thought patterns. What you described was Ni, seeing one detail that is contrary to everything else, yet using it to hone in on one conclusion, in spite of all other evidence to the contrary. That certainly isn't Ne. Even the moment in which he comes to the realisation that Bruce must be alive is a clear moment of intuition taking over his reason. He couldn't handle that Bruce was gone because Bruce was like a father to him. Also because Batman was a core part of what had become his own identity, a part of him, Robin. In fact, he grows frustrated at his situation and only lashes out when he has hit a wall in finding Bruce or when Damian is being a bit of a prick. In the former scenario it is clear that is his Se, wanting results, wanting to have something to show for his efforts. What does he do when he gets in a rut like this, where he can't just power through with Te-Se, he falls back on Ni. He reassures himself in his own intuition: "I am not crazy", "Bruce is alive", "I am not wrong" etc. The latter was an outburst because Damian (in typical Damian fashion) was being a little shit about something that was close to Tim. His identity. That was what the Robin mantle was for Tim, it was a testament to his skill, his determination and his devotion to Bruce, that's why it was almost a slight to him when Dick seemingly shunted him off in favour of Damian. That's inferior Fi at work, ENTJs do not take kindly to the hijacking of their own efforts and of things personal to them, but unlike a type with Fi higher in their stack, the ENTJ would simply lash out to stop this from happening as their Fi isn't developed. The narration blocks in his comic do well to emphasise his exact thought processes as well. During a fight, during his investigations, they way he collects large amounts of sensory data, only to have it spark an insight in him (Ni-Se), the way he objectively measures the facts of a situation before establishing the most efficient way to solve it (Te). There aren't really specific examples because it runs through the entire series.
Well, by Ne, I meant that he would come up with multiple theories after looking at all the evidence like a detective would as opposed to the "I've got a hunch I'ma go solve it" that INTJ detective Batman is. And I should probably preface that I don't have New 52 or Pre-N52 Red Robin in mind when talking about Tim, but more of the 90s and early 2000s green sleeve Robin. Wouldn't an ENTJ Tim have his sights set on something a little bigger than Robin? Like, maybe, nagging Bruce to let him be Batman and creating his own bigger and better persona because of Se (creating something new instead of being trapped in old habits and statuses)? And I don't know if you've seen any of the times when he and Dick were together (or him and anyone other than Damian, really), but from what I remember he usually gives up his authority and direction to someone else (he always follows someone else's lead). With Dick, Bruce, Barbara, the Teen Titans, and pretty much everyone he teams up with. In fact, I feel like he's the person in the cave least able to get over a personal death other than Bruce (Jack Drake, Bruce, Superboy); that doesn't sound like the mission-first this-comes-with-the-territory trait I've seen in ENTJs. I mean, just look at how he handles every death (especially Superboy's); he's almost worse than Bruce! I'm putting up the mental picture of Flash's ENTJ Harry next to Tim and I just don't see any similarities pre-N52. The ENTJ persona I hear Oracle has (I have some mixed feelings about that, though) doesn't really connect with Tim either (and I know I would rather the Bat Family was different in their personalities, strengths, archetypes, etc.). Maybe he has a developed Te because Bruce and his... "lifestyle" either necessitate it or is beaten into him like with Dick (which explains why Dick often looks like he has a stronger Te than the rest of his functions)? What would an INTP Tim look like? I just don't see him as someone whose primary function and instinct uses relevant, objective information to spearhead a perceived end above all else like you do (which is why I encouraged examples to help me understand). What I see is a kid detective who overanalyzes everything and has it in his mind that things are going to be the way they are forever, which is how he would have it. I think that's what makes him unique and so defined as a role in the Bat Family, is that I feel like he's really the only one who has a high Ti (or any, for that matter) and that makes him such a good "detective" archetype in the cave.
 

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...Wait, what? I'm confused. Which part do you agree with?
The part about Frank Miller's Batman.

Isn't going around doing the exact same thing without any signs of reassessing the situation and being stuck in the same loop for eternity because it's what you've always done based on a vow you made to your parents decades ago the ultimate sign of Si?
That is Fi. He isn't sticking to the same pattern because his subjective impression of the events leads to him to conclude that the same method is required, he's keeping at it because of his own principles. That's why he never gives up the fight against crime. It would be in direct contradiction with his Fi values.

Wouldn't Te be constantly adjusting the plan with updated, relevant, objective information to spearhead towards an ultimate goal rather than to be stuck in an ongoing process for that goal?
He does do that, but not holistically (as an Ni or Si dom would do). He doesn't have an overarching idea of what Gotham could be (Ni) or what it should be more like (Si), at least not one that is fully articulated to us. He is simply fighting crime because that's what his values mandate.

And for the last sentence, is what you're saying basically that he's a stereotypical ISTJ but not an ISTJ by function in that version? So what would a ISTJ-by-function Batman look like?
Yes, I am saying that if one were to look at archetypes or stereotypes it can be easy to type Batman as an ISTJ or an INTJ. But if Batman were functionally an ISTJ, he would be explicitly fighting against the unknown, against unfortunate futures using his own sensory experiences as a guide. Being repetitive or stuck in a loop isn't a sign of Si, Si is relying on past sensory experiences to reliably asses current ones. Batman didn't seem to display any higher perceiving function at all. It was simply fight crime (Te) because crime is wrong (Fi).


Well, by Ne, I meant that he would come up with multiple theories after looking at all the evidence like a detective would as opposed to the "I've got a hunch I'ma go solve it" that INTJ detective Batman is.
That's his Te at work, not Ne. He rarely looks beyond what the evidence shows and relies on the evidence itself to come to concrete suggestions, via deductive reasoning. It's why he doesn't have quite the same insight Bruce has. He is far more reliant on the concrete than someone with Ne would be.

And I should probably preface that I don't have New 52 or Pre-N52 Red Robin in mind when talking about Tim, but more of the 90s and early 2000s green sleeve Robin.
I don't know why you would, we get a much clearer sense of Tim's personality when he grows into Red Robin.

Wouldn't an ENTJ Tim have his sights set on something a little bigger than Robin? Like, maybe, nagging Bruce to let him be Batman and creating his own bigger and better persona because of Se (creating something new instead of being trapped in old habits and statuses)?
Not necessarily, especially when you consider the fact that he is basically a kid, seeing Se at all would have been unlikely unless he was extremely unhealthy. Being Robin is essentially the ultimate manifestation of his accomplishments, he seized the mantle for himself, he made it his identity. That's a typical Te-doer personality right there.

And he also goes on to do that after the Robin mantle no longer becomes representative of his capabilities, of his role. He then goes on to bigger things with a drive, hunger and determination that can only be attributed to a Te dom. Every time he tries to get back to the idea of Robin, it is only because of Te-Ni. "Batman needs a Robin" to keep him sane, he isn't at his best when he doesn't have a Robin by his side, so Tim takes up the mantle to get him back on track, adopting a role he shouldn't have to (Te-Ni).

And I don't know if you've seen any of the times when he and Dick were together (or him and anyone other than Damian, really), but from what I remember he usually gives up his authority and direction to someone else (he always follows someone else's lead).
Really? It's the precise opposite in the Red Robin comic. He acts like a mini-Batman towards pretty much everyone.

With Dick, Bruce, Barbara, the Teen Titans, and pretty much everyone he teams up with. In fact, I feel like he's the person in the cave least able to get over a personal death other than Bruce (Jack Drake, Bruce, Superboy); that doesn't sound like the mission-first this-comes-with-the-territory trait I've seen in ENTJs.
Well, he's not really going to just get over it considering the fact that he knows Batman is alive. It's just a hunch, but he feels like he knows it. That is the exact kind of belligerence and self-confidence I'd expect to see in an ENTJ.

I mean, just look at how he handles every death (especially Superboy's); he's almost worse than Bruce!
Same as above.

I'm putting up the mental picture of Flash's ENTJ Harry next to Tim and I just don't see any similarities pre-N52.
You're comparing two very different characters, with very different motivations, very different temperaments and two very different ages. Trust me, you're not going to see many similarities in their behaviour. But where you do see similarities, is in their cognitive approach to problems. They both evaluate the evidence objectively, they are both dynamic, they are both belligerent, they both receive and trust their insights even if there isn't much to go on, they both act on their feelings, as opposed to seeking confidence in others.

The ENTJ persona I hear Oracle has (I have some mixed feelings about that, though) doesn't really connect with Tim either (and I know I would rather the Bat Family was different in their personalities, strengths, archetypes, etc.).
Eh, I doubt she's an ENTJ...

Maybe he has a developed Te because Bruce and his... "lifestyle" either necessitate it or is beaten into him like with Dick (which explains why Dick often looks like he has a stronger Te than the rest of his functions)?
He clearly had Te before he officially became Robin.

What would an INTP Tim look like? I just don't see him as someone whose primary function and instinct uses relevant, objective information to spearhead a perceived end above all else like you do (which is why I encouraged examples to help me understand).
That's pretty much the only thing he is doing throughout the entirety of his investigation into Batman's absence...

What I see is a kid detective who overanalyzes everything and has it in his mind that things are going to be the way they are forever, which is how he would have it. I think that's what makes him unique and so defined as a role in the Bat Family, is that I feel like he's really the only one who has a high Ti (or any, for that matter) and that makes him such a good "detective" archetype in the cave.
Ti does not a good detective make, you're looking at archetypes when you should be looking at what Tim is actually thinking (those thought bubbles are very helpful in this). Even reading a single issue of his comic, just reading through his thought processes. Does that honestly sound like a Ti dom? Compare him to Sherlock Holmes, who constantly analyses underlying links and patterns between the facts, Tim never does that at all, he simply states them. "X happened, therefore Y", "He said A, so B is likely". It is all deductive reasoning that is based on common logic, not independent logic.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
That is Fi. He isn't sticking to the same pattern because his subjective impression of the events leads to him to conclude that the same method is required
Well........... I mean, you never see Silver Age Batman ever changing the "if it aint broke don't fix it" approach to crime fighting....

he's keeping at it because of his own principles. That's why he never gives up the fight against crime. It would be in direct contradiction with his Fi values.
Right, I agree he has Fi and that's a major reason he keeps going on. I'm just saying he didn't seem to be very good at assessing and adapting, as if the only thing he knew to do was what he always did. In other words, his motivation was from Fi, but his methods were Si. And he kind of does do it with "an overarching idea of what Gotham... should be more like (Si);" the whole concept of Silver Age Batman was that his childhood world was a perfect childish memory of a Gotham in which the city was made somewhat whole (good, even) because of good people like his parents doing good deeds to make Gotham a good city (childish immortalization of parents) and his parents being his entire world, prompting Bruce to make a vow to make it as he believed his parents would have had it. Deep down, Batman doesn't "fight crime" just to prevent what happened to him from happening again, he does it also because he's a man who can't (or won't) get over his childhood trauma and his perfect world that it took away from him.

Being repetitive or stuck in a loop isn't a sign of Si, Si is relying on past sensory experiences to reliably asses current ones.
Almost as if he's repeating himself or getting himself stuck in a loop based on past experiences...? I just want to make clear that I'm not denying that there is an INTJ Batman. I'm just saying that I believe there are two versions of him that have almost completely different motives and methods.

That's his Te at work, not Ne.
Okay, I think I should assert ahead of time that it looks like we're interpreting functions as different ones. So, just as one can say that reading between the lines is Ni, one can just as easily say it is because of Ti. Or one can say that going to the same coffee shop is because of Si just as much as one can say it is because of Fi, or one can say they intuitively knew a conclusion from Ni just as easily as one can say they viewed a multitude of possibilities and came to it in a time too short to comprehend as Ne. See my point? I would say the New Animated Series Tim would be an ENTJ, but that is a very very different version of him. Tim isn't known as "the goal-oriented Robin," he's known as "the analytical Robin."

I don't know why you would, we get a much clearer sense of Tim's personality when he grows into Red Robin.
Well, mostly because one of them has been around for 20 years in a multitude of different series while the other has been around for 5 and pretty much just in 2 series.... Also because one of them is the definitive "Tim Drake" while the other was the Tim Drake of a new era (and meant to be an unhealthy Tim at that). Also because old Red Robin revolved completely around his fanatic idea that Bruce was alive entirely because he couldn't get over Bruce's death almost as much as Bruce couldn't get over his parents'. Also because, relative to the entire history of Tim Drake as we all knew him, "Red Robin" was a radical, out-of-character variant of Tim (I may be speaking for myself, but I think the majority of people saw Tim's coming-of-age story as just another crime scene analysis that was forcing and shoving Tim to fill the absent Nightwing role because DC was forced to adapt after they realized they had two Robins. Good book, but still forced). Kind of like how Bruce Jones's Dick Grayson (Nightwing 118 or so) was a lot different from the Dick we knew from the Dixon days. So that's why.

he seized the mantle for himself, he made it his identity. That's a typical Te-doer personality right there.... And he also goes on to do that after the Robin mantle no longer becomes representative of his capabilities, of his role. He then goes on to bigger things with a drive, hunger and determination that can only be attributed to a Te dom.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, he didn't "seize" it or "make" it his identity. He didn't "act" out a plan as much as he wanted to help Batman. He had Dick in mind for the role and was given it instead. He never had his sights set on being Robin, he was just a detective. And Dick was an example of someone who made the role his when he made Batman a new role that wasn't about fear but about an icon of justice. Tim donned the role of Robin and fit himself to it, filling the shoes of the Robins before him and only changing Robin to a person who is more focused on being a detective than anything else. And he didn't "go on to do bigger and better things because he outgrew the Robin mantle because it stopped representing his capabilities." He was squeezed out of his role. He was literally forced out of his role because Damian became Robin and Tim had nowhere to go. He didn't choose to become Red Robin. He had no other option except to retire. For all intents and purposes (I even thought this before Batman died) he shouldn't have even become Red Robin. He was going to be Robin for the rest of his life until Dick would be tired of being Batman and hand over the cowl to Tim so that he could be "detective Batman" for the rest of his days. Just look at the Arkham games (ignore the TimxBabs relationship that never should have happened). He looks like a 30 year old Robin and yet you just can't see him as anything else because there's nothing for Tim to grow up into.

Really? It's the precise opposite in the Red Robin comic. He acts like a mini-Batman towards pretty much everyone.
Right, which is exactly why I'm ignoring the Red Robin tenure in his character analysis. Because it's out of character. Read any Batman, Nightwing, Robin, Justice League, or Teen Titans comic with Tim (though he started to act a little like Red Robin Tim in the One Year Later Teen Titans comics) and he completely gives up control over everything. It would be like basing a character analysis on Obsidian Age Batman.

You're comparing two very different characters, with very different motivations, very different temperaments and two very different ages.
I'm aware they're different people. I'm aware they would only be similar in cognitive process. But if you can't take two types and find an exact match between them, then there's no point in having 16 types. It's like when you said the difference between Wells and Harry was that the first was evil and the second was just a dick. That doesn't have to do with functions, that's an effect of the cause.

Eh, I doubt she's an ENTJ...
Awesome :) For me it's just a feeling that she's not an ENTJ (though I can see it in some instances), but I'd be interested to hear what you believe she is.

Ti does not a good detective make, you're looking at archetypes when you should be looking at what Tim is actually thinking. Does that honestly sound like a Ti dom? Compare him to Sherlock Holmes, who constantly analyses underlying links and patterns between the facts, Tim never does that at all, he simply states them.
Well, I thought I knew what a Ti dom Robin would look like but apparently not. So I'd need you to demonstrate to me what an INTP Tim Robin would look like. And I assume you don't mean the "Sherlock" Sherlock Holmes (pretty sure he's an INTJ), but unfortunately I don't know much about Holmes :/
 

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Well........... I mean, you never see Silver Age Batman ever changing the "if it aint broke don't fix it" approach to crime fighting....
That's not a trait indicative of Si. I'm fairly certain nearly everyone in the world displays that at some point or another unless they're being stupid.

Right, I agree he has Fi and that's a major reason he keeps going on. I'm just saying he didn't seem to be very good at assessing and adapting, as if the only thing he knew to do was what he always did. In other words, his motivation was from Fi, but his methods were Si. And he kind of does do it with "an overarching idea of what Gotham... should be more like (Si);" the whole concept of Silver Age Batman was that his childhood world was a perfect childish memory of a Gotham in which the city was made somewhat whole (good, even) because of good people like his parents doing good deeds to make Gotham a good city (childish immortalization of parents) and his parents being his entire world, prompting Bruce to make a vow to make it as he believed his parents would have had it. Deep down, Batman doesn't "fight crime" just to prevent what happened to him from happening again, he does it also because he's a man who can't (or won't) get over his childhood trauma and his perfect world that it took away from him.
I'm not sure if this was your intention but this is describing an Ni approach, not Si... If anything this is a case for INTJ.

Almost as if he's repeating himself or getting himself stuck in a loop based on past experiences...? I just want to make clear that I'm not denying that there is an INTJ Batman. I'm just saying that I believe there are two versions of him that have almost completely different motives and methods.
No, being in a loop and repeating oneself is just being unhealthy, it can happen in someone who uses Se, Ni, Si, Te, Fe, Ti. Hence why I said it isn't exactly indicative of Si. From people I know, it's a stereotype that consistently irks people who utilise Si.


Okay, I think I should assert ahead of time that it looks like we're interpreting functions as different ones. So, just as one can say that reading between the lines is Ni, one can just as easily say it is because of Ti.
Not exactly. Reading between the lines in order to develop insights and ideological patterns not readily apparent is Ni. Reading between the lines in order to develop logical frameworks and logical patterns is Ti. There is a potent difference between the two.

Or one can say that going to the same coffee shop is because of Si just as much as one can say it is because of Fi, or one can say they intuitively knew a conclusion from Ni just as easily as one can say they viewed a multitude of possibilities and came to it in a time too short to comprehend as Ne. See my point?
Where is the evidence of a multitude of possibilities though? Is there ever any time when Tim is actually in doubt of one conclusion that he thinks is reasonable?

I would say the New Animated Series Tim would be an ENTJ, but that is a very very different version of him. Tim isn't known as "the goal-oriented Robin," he's known as "the analytical Robin."
Once again, you're looking at archetypes in place of his cognition. Is there reason why being analytical is mutually exclusive to being goal-oriented? Are ENTJs, INTJs, ESTJs, ISTJs not analytical either? No of course they can be, Tim's analytical nature is because he is basically a prodigy, he doesn't employ the Ti mode of analysis.


Well, mostly because one of them has been around for 20 years in a multitude of different series while the other has been around for 5 and pretty much just in 2 series.... Also because one of them is the definitive "Tim Drake" while the other was the Tim Drake of a new era (and meant to be an unhealthy Tim at that).
Your point revolves around them being completely different in their personalities. They're not, the Red Robin we see is merely a developed version of the Robin of old, because of course he is older.

Also because old Red Robin revolved completely around his fanatic idea that Bruce was alive entirely because he couldn't get over Bruce's death almost as much as Bruce couldn't get over his parents'. Also because, relative to the entire history of Tim Drake as we all knew him, "Red Robin" was a radical, out-of-character variant of Tim (I may be speaking for myself, but I think the majority of people saw Tim's coming-of-age story as just another crime scene analysis that was forcing and shoving Tim to fill the absent Nightwing role because DC was forced to adapt after they realized they had two Robins. Good book, but still forced). Kind of like how Bruce Jones's Dick Grayson (Nightwing 118 or so) was a lot different from the Dick we knew from the Dixon days. So that's why.
You're just making stuff up here. He outright tells and shows us why he can't get over the supposed death, and it has nothing to do with Fe or Si. It's because he loses his sense of identity and purpose with the death of Bruce (which is all Ni and Fi). Again, this is stated and hinted at numerous times. His characterisation is completely consistent with his character as Robin, it isn't out-of-character at all. You're simply concluding that on the basis that Tim is an INTP before his solo issue. I am positing that isn't the case.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, he didn't "seize" it or "make" it his identity. He didn't "act" out a plan as much as he wanted to help Batman. He had Dick in mind for the role and was given it instead. He never had his sights set on being Robin, he was just a detective. And Dick was an example of someone who made the role his when he made Batman a new role that wasn't about fear but about an icon of justice. Tim donned the role of Robin and fit himself to it, filling the shoes of the Robins before him and only changing Robin to a person who is more focused on being a detective than anything else. And he didn't "go on to do bigger and better things because he outgrew the Robin mantle because it stopped representing his capabilities." He was squeezed out of his role. He was literally forced out of his role because Damian became Robin and Tim had nowhere to go. He didn't choose to become Red Robin. He had no other option except to retire. For all intents and purposes (I even thought this before Batman died) he shouldn't have even become Red Robin. He was going to be Robin for the rest of his life until Dick would be tired of being Batman and hand over the cowl to Tim so that he could be "detective Batman" for the rest of his days. Just look at the Arkham games (ignore the TimxBabs relationship that never should have happened). He looks like a 30 year old Robin and yet you just can't see him as anything else because there's nothing for Tim to grow up into.
And wasn't his plan to help Batman?...

The bolded is just plain false. Dick refused the role of Robin and Tim worked hard to prove himself capable of assuming the mantle. He wasn't just "given" anything. He was willing to do so because of his assessment of Batman, that he needed a Robin, as well as his dedication to Batman's mission.

Yes, he was squeezed out of the role, which lead to him doing what? Taking on a different mantle in order to find the truth. Red Robin was ultimately a tool for him, but nevertheless it still had symbolic meaning to him, which is textbook Te-Ni. The Robin is symbolic for Tim, it's a part of his identity, of course he isn't just going to drop it. Everything he proceeded to do after was him developing his capabilities and leadership.

Right, which is exactly why I'm ignoring the Red Robin tenure in his character analysis. Because it's out of character. Read any Batman, Nightwing, Robin, Justice League, or Teen Titans comic with Tim (though he started to act a little like Red Robin Tim in the One Year Later Teen Titans comics) and he completely gives up control over everything. It would be like basing a character analysis on Obsidian Age Batman.
It isn't out of character as I have already explained, you're just ignoring the traits Tim already displayed in favour of your own interpretation of his character, then using that as a basis to render an entire character arc as 'out of character'. It doesn't work that way.

Even still, you're point isn't the slightest bit realistic. Te isn't just about seizing power from anyone, it's about respecting common logic in order to make systems more efficient. Why on Earth would Tim take control from someone who is more competent than himself? Why would he try to take authority when there are people better suited to it than he at the time? Again, you're using a very stereotypical and not a very realistic interpretation of what a Te dominant child is like. Tim earned his authority and control, through his own abilities, something he always intended to do.

I'm aware they're different people. I'm aware they would only be similar in cognitive process. But if you can't take two types and find an exact match between them, then there's no point in having 16 types. It's like when you said the difference between Wells and Harry was that the first was evil and the second was just a dick. That doesn't have to do with functions, that's an effect of the cause.
Well I was pointing out the irony of Cisco's assessment being inline with stereotypical differences between ENTJ and INTJ. That was actually a joke, both from me and in the show, so I don't now why you're using it as a point of argument...
And what you're saying here makes no sense. No two people are the same. Period. They can only be similar cognitively. Trying to find someone who is 'like' Tim, then extending that to a cognitive likeness is fallacious at best. By the same token, I can make the equally incorrect point that to argue Tim is an INTP is to compare him to the Riddler and call it good, yes?

Awesome :) For me it's just a feeling that she's not an ENTJ (though I can see it in some instances), but I'd be interested to hear what you believe she is.
Never thought about her that much... xSTJ is my guess.

Well, I thought I knew what a Ti dom Robin would look like but apparently not. So I'd need you to demonstrate to me what an INTP Tim Robin would look like. And I assume you don't mean the "Sherlock" Sherlock Holmes (pretty sure he's an INTJ), but unfortunately I don't know much about Holmes :/
All versions of Holmes utilise Ti, even the abomination that is BBC's Sherlock.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
It isn't out of character as I have already explained, you're just ignoring the traits Tim already displayed in favour of your own interpretation of his character, then using that as a basis to render an entire character arc as 'out of character'. It doesn't work that way. Even still, you're point isn't the slightest bit realistic.
Okay, dude, it might just be because it's impossible to read emotions through a computer screen so I might be misinterpreting you, but I can see you're starting to shift from reasonably and cordially disagreeing with my opinion to getting frustrated and borderline winding up to insult me. Watch it. This is just a discussion of a difference of perspective. We can both be looking at the Mona Lisa and say it's all about a woman and all about Renaissance expression and still both be right. It's a difference of perspective. I'm sure you're reasonable as to believe that I don't just conclude without effective evidence or because I am incompetent, but rather because I have in my mind a database of facts as I interpret them and rules that I filter them through based on how I understood them (in this case, the rules of Myers-Briggs typing and cognitive functions) and concluded based on the information. Just like you.

Also, while we're still in cordial territory and to improve the status quo, I need to point out that you're not totally being very fair in your argument. It's just that you're kind of either writing or reading the rules as they come up instead of both of us reading them. I know because I've been readjusting my "platform" to fit your definitions every time I can and yet am still having it thrown back in my face as if I'm erroneous and don't have any grounds to think the way I'm thinking (remember what I said about perspective). Which is why I asked for clarification on how you describe functions and effects and how you would describe those descriptions (because I couldn't effectively compare them), and asked twice for both how you would see an ISTJ Batman and how you would see an INTP Tim Drake Robin and the closest I've gotten was
But if Batman were functionally an ISTJ, he would be explicitly fighting against the unknown, against unfortunate futures using his own sensory experiences as a guide.
Which, I'm sure you'd admit, isn't the most enlightening input as far as something I can use to contrast my perception of an ISTJ Batman to what you say an ISTJ actually is (because I'm cognitively simulating the two realities by assuming yours is true, whether I end up concluding it is or not).

Everything's okay, but please just think about how you're coming off.

So, for the sake of trying to be on the same page, let's relaunch at a new level. Or we could go back to our previous arguments if you want, but I think this way will reach a common conclusion much sooner. Your choice.

So, I assume that we both are going to theorize under the assumption that someone's type is a cognitive process rather than a behavior, regardless of how they act (so we eliminate stereotypes based on behaviors, an ESTJ can be an awkward social doormat for all we know).

Now, we define cognitive functions as we perceive them under our own assumptions. I'll let you do the honors, I just need a definition and optimally an example (real life or imaginary) of both use of function (where we would see it) and effectual result (what someone with it might then stereotypically do or how they would come off because of it).

From there, we can form structures of how our own perception of the character would look based on those parameters (INTJ Silver Age Batman in your case, ISTJ in mine, ENTJ Tim in yours, INTP in mine) and provide reason as to why our specific one is valid and the other doesn't quite fit (without tearing it down). And then we can either repeat the process with the other person (my definitions) or assume the first was the official (which is likely unless there is a gap in perception or understanding).

If I sound condescending, I'm sorry, I don't mean to. I'm trying to get to the most basic level of mutual comprehension (mostly for myself to "exist" in your reality so I can observe things under your "physics").

While we're foregoing the previous arguments, I will say a couple things about the last one just to clarify and give some unrelated responses.

Well I was pointing out the irony of Cisco's assessment being inline with stereotypical differences between ENTJ and INTJ. That was actually a joke, both from me and in the show, so I don't now why you're using it as a point of argument...
And what you're saying here makes no sense. No two people are the same. Period. They can only be similar cognitively. Trying to find someone who is 'like' Tim, then extending that to a cognitive likeness is fallacious at best. By the same token, I can make the equally incorrect point that to argue Tim is an INTP is to compare him to the Riddler and call it good, yes?
This is just to be clear that I still think that there is some merit to comparing characters. I obviously know that no two people are the same, but I'm coming more from the point that I assume two types are likely to think the same and even sometimes act the same. At least, in the same way that an ESFP or ENTP would probably act (perhaps even predictably) different than an ISFJ. At least in some regard, obviously not in a "they never do things the same way" aspect. By the way, do you also think the Arkham Riddler is an INTP as well as the comic Riddler? I kind of always thought he was an ENTP (I'll shut up now).

Never thought about her that much... xSTJ is my guess.
You know, I actually thought the same thing, haha. Exactly split on the I/E too. Especially in the 90s and early 2000s Oracle. What do you think about a completely hypothetical variant of her that's an INTJ? I think that's somewhat how the New Animated Series Barbara was, so I was wondering how you would feel about that (more about the hypothetical version of an INTJ Barbara than which type the TNAS version was).

All versions of Holmes utilise Ti, even the abomination that is BBC's Sherlock.
I just wanted to say that this made me laugh. That is all.
 

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Okay, dude, it might just be because it's impossible to read emotions through a computer screen so I might be misinterpreting you, but I can see you're starting to shift from reasonably and cordially disagreeing with my opinion to getting frustrated and borderline winding up to insult me. Watch it.
I have no clue how you've come to that conclusion, but you're reading too much into my responses. If I wanted to insult you or was insulting you it would be very direct. Trust me, you wouldn't be in doubt about it.

This is just a discussion of a difference of perspective. We can both be looking at the Mona Lisa and say it's all about a woman and all about Renaissance expression and still both be right. It's a difference of perspective. I'm sure you're reasonable as to believe that I don't just conclude without effective evidence or because I am incompetent, but rather because I have in my mind a database of facts as I interpret them and rules that I filter them through based on how I understood them (in this case, the rules of Myers-Briggs typing and cognitive functions) and concluded based on the information. Just like you.
It's hard to not believe that as you've stated things that are just wrong. As in factually wrong. Just because you don't like me pointing that out, doesn't mean that I am not being "cordial".

Also, while we're still in cordial territory and to improve the status quo, I need to point out that you're not totally being very fair in your argument. It's just that you're kind of either writing or reading the rules as they come up instead of both of us reading them. I know because I've been readjusting my "platform" to fit your definitions every time I can and yet am still having it thrown back in my face as if I'm erroneous and don't have any grounds to think the way I'm thinking (remember what I said about perspective). Which is why I asked for clarification on how you describe functions and effects and how you would describe those descriptions (because I couldn't effectively compare them), and asked twice for both how you would see an ISTJ Batman and how you would see an INTP Tim Drake Robin and the closest I've gotten was

Which, I'm sure you'd admit, isn't the most enlightening input as far as something I can use to contrast my perception of an ISTJ Batman to what you say an ISTJ actually is (because I'm cognitively simulating the two realities by assuming yours is true, whether I end up concluding it is or not).
I'd have thought that my description of the functions has remained consistent throughout this discussion, if not then perhaps I will review that.

But I also must say that you are asking for me to do something that is impossible. The reason why the description of an ISTJ Batman is rather vague is because I was describing what he would think like if he were an ISTJ. You're asking me to provide a theoretical description of his behaviour so you can make some link between that and how he actually does, but I'm sorry that isn't what MBTI is for. I can only tell you how he would think, and thus how his behaviour would be linked to that. Not the other way around.

So, I assume that we both are going to theorize under the assumption that someone's type is a cognitive process rather than a behavior, regardless of how they act (so we eliminate stereotypes based on behaviors, an ESTJ can be an awkward social doormat for all we know).
It isn't really theorising as that is what someone's type is, but sure, go for it.

Now, we define cognitive functions as we perceive them under our own assumptions. I'll let you do the honors, I just need a definition and optimally an example (real life or imaginary) of both use of function (where we would see it) and effectual result (what someone with it might then stereotypically do or how they would come off because of it).
I found this example on another a forum which boils down the functions quite astutely:
Fi - The urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, moral or emotional worth.
Fe - The urge to act upon ideas of social moral or emotional need or opportunity.
Ti - The urge to form opinions based upon technical or scientific worth
Te - The urge to act upon ideas of technical or scientific need or opportunity
Si - The urge to consider what has been learnt and project ahead in terms of reliability
Se - The urge to explore, experiment and act spontaneously, inspired by by what is fundamentally there.
Ni - The urge to consider what has been learnt and project ahead in terms of possibilities and potential.
Ne - The urge to expore and act spontaneous, inspired by what things represent.

And I found another blog which puts them into real life examples of what they could manifest in a person who is using the function:
Fi - Someone developing strong personal emotions, independent of others.
Fe - Someone who can adapt to the emotions of others and take care of them.
Ti - Someone capable of analyzing everything and wants to know how things work.
Te - Someone who operates by the book, organizes for efficiency and is systematic in their way of thinking.
Si - Someone who can be nostalgic, often compares the present to the past, prone to being traditional.
Se - Someone who often lives in the moment, being totally aware of their environment.
Ni - Someone who seems to know things intuitively without evidence, also has big ideas.
Ne - Someone who can predict all possible outcomes to a situation, a visionary.

These represent the way I see the functions in my mind the closest, so let's go with these if you don't have any objections.


If I sound condescending, I'm sorry, I don't mean to. I'm trying to get to the most basic level of mutual comprehension (mostly for myself to "exist" in your reality so I can observe things under your "physics").
You don't sound condescending. I feel you're reading much more into this discussion than I am :p

This is just to be clear that I still think that there is some merit to comparing characters. I obviously know that no two people are the same, but I'm coming more from the point that I assume two types are likely to think the same and even sometimes act the same. At least, in the same way that an ESFP or ENTP would probably act (perhaps even predictably) different than an ISFJ. At least in some regard, obviously not in a "they never do things the same way" aspect. By the way, do you also think the Arkham Riddler is an INTP as well as the comic Riddler? I kind of always thought he was an ENTP (I'll shut up now).
I don't think it is impossible for people of different types to act the same, or for people of the same type to act completely differently. I just believe that in determining one's type, we need to look at the impetus for behaviour, in order to decide. So we should go from the cognitive to the behavioural, never the other way around as behaviour doesn't have bearing on type whereas type can have bearing on behaviour.

And yes, I do believe Riddler is INTP. But I could see an argument for ENTP.

You know, I actually thought the same thing, haha. Exactly split on the I/E too. Especially in the 90s and early 2000s Oracle. What do you think about a completely hypothetical variant of her that's an INTJ? I think that's somewhat how the New Animated Series Barbara was, so I was wondering how you would feel about that (more about the hypothetical version of an INTJ Barbara than which type the TNAS version was).
Dunno, I'd have to muse on that one, but at a first glance it doesn't seem very likely. I may have to go back to some source material before I completely rule it out though.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I have no clue how you've come to that conclusion, but you're reading too much into my responses. If I wanted to insult you or was insulting you it would be very direct. Trust me, you wouldn't be in doubt about it.
Okay, just making sure. So we're cool then. It's just that even if you are correct in saying that I am wrong ("You were wrong." Yeah, I know, I'm just saying-- (sigh) just go with it for a second), the way that it is said yields a specific outcome. For instance, if someone completely negates what I say as if I had no reason to conclude it without calling myself intellectually inept, it's going to be taken as either an attack on me or on my ability to intellectually contribute. I don't have a problem with being wrong or being told that my conclusion is wrong, but saying "You're wrong, making things up, and being unrealistic; here's what's right" gives a different impression than "I think something is off about the data your conclusion is coming from; let's look at what your logic of the subject stems from to find the glitch in our disagreement of understanding (and then look at my definitions of the functions to find the glitch and explain why my conclusion is flawed)." Only one of those implies that you give me the benefit of the doubt to still assume that I'm reasonable in my ability to conclude and it's just my data or interpretation that is flawed, if that makes sense. I know it's the long way to do it and it's not as efficient as "This is wrong, this is right," but in the long run it does prevent me from clamming up and thinking you're just being stubbornly commanding, which would result in me retaliating instead of being open to finding the glitch in my logic with you. So in the long run, though it invests more time, it actually makes things even more efficient and opens more beneficial possibilities :)

It's hard to not believe that as you've stated things that are just wrong. As in factually wrong. Just because you don't like me pointing that out, doesn't mean that I am not being "cordial".
See, them's be fightin' words.

The reason why the description of an ISTJ Batman is rather vague is because I was describing what he would think like if he were an ISTJ. You're asking me to provide a theoretical description of his behaviour so you can make some link between that and how he actually does, but I'm sorry that isn't what MBTI is for. I can only tell you how he would think, and thus how his behaviour would be linked to that. Not the other way around.
Okay, that's understandable. But while I agree that MBTI is a cognitive function and not a behavior style, to find someone's thought process without using it to explain their actions is like learning Newton's third law without letting yourself apply it to a real life situation (a ball bouncing on the floor, for instance). There's just no point to learning it in the first place. Actions result from thoughts and beliefs. All I was wanting was a "He thinks (this way), that's why (blank)." What is an ISTJ? How would an ISTJ Batman then be depicted? How would he think? How can I tell he thinks like an INTJ rather than an ISTJ? If there's a concept, there must be an application, even if it is likely erroneous to use an application to conclude a concept. So it's fine if you don't want to tell me his behavior to understand his thought process, but his thought process would explain why he does things one way instead of another and that's all I'm trying to understand. He'd use past information to evaluate the present? Okay, but, as you said, I'm sure everyone who's healthy does that. He'd be able to predict multiple possible outcomes because he can explore things based on what they represent? Okay, but I'm sure you can do that too just by using your Ni on multiple possible scenarios. See my point?

It isn't really theorising as that is what someone's type is, but sure, go for it.
e_e

I found this example on another a forum which boils down the functions quite astutely:
Fi - The urge to form opinions based upon ideas of social, moral or emotional worth.
Fe - The urge to act upon ideas of social moral or emotional need or opportunity.
Ti - The urge to form opinions based upon technical or scientific worth
Te - The urge to act upon ideas of technical or scientific need or opportunity
Si - The urge to consider what has been learnt and project ahead in terms of reliability
Se - The urge to explore, experiment and act spontaneously, inspired by by what is fundamentally there.
Ni - The urge to consider what has been learnt and project ahead in terms of possibilities and potential.
Ne - The urge to expore and act spontaneous, inspired by what things represent.

And I found another blog which puts them into real life examples of what they could manifest in a person who is using the function:
Fi - Someone developing strong personal emotions, independent of others.
Fe - Someone who can adapt to the emotions of others and take care of them.
Ti - Someone capable of analyzing everything and wants to know how things work.
Te - Someone who operates by the book, organizes for efficiency and is systematic in their way of thinking.
Si - Someone who can be nostalgic, often compares the present to the past, prone to being traditional.
Se - Someone who often lives in the moment, being totally aware of their environment.
Ni - Someone who seems to know things intuitively without evidence, also has big ideas.
Ne - Someone who can predict all possible outcomes to a situation, a visionary.
Perfect. Now I see the problem.

Ti - The urge to form opinions based upon technical or scientific worth
Te - The urge to act upon ideas of technical or scientific need or opportunity
Ti - Someone capable of analyzing everything and wants to know how things work.
Te - Someone who operates by the book, organizes for efficiency and is systematic in their way of thinking.
The way that I concluded Ti vs. Te is based on how I interpreted the info was that
Ti - Being extremely analytical, finding value in every detail there is rather than the general, useful "jist" that is applicable.
Te - Doing everything possible to reach a goal; using practical, useful information or resources as a tool or resource to apply in order to bring about a desired outcome.
Real life use:
Ti - Being "the ultimate thinker," reading into everything and taking in all information, even if it is not useful, to use the resource in its entirety to the extent of becoming paralyzed by analysis ("if it exists, there's a reason to know it")
Te - Being "the ultimate action-er," not stopping until everything that can be done to achieve the goal is done and everything that can be used as a resource to achieve it is used, only using or "giving time" enough to things if they can be used as a resource.

So that's why I thought an INTP would be a good detective, is because I figured they would be great at analyzing things and would be able to... well, you know, study it out or detectivize it or whatever. You know what I mean. Which is how I saw Tim, is "analysis first, big picture later" and I saw Damian as more of an ENTJ. I still don't know if I quite understand what Ti is, though; would you mind expanding on it a little more?

You don't sound condescending. I feel you're reading much more into this discussion than I am :p
Whew, well, whaddayaknow? I'm not in the hot seat after all ;) I think at this point we've crossed the barrier into *sings* frieeeeendship territoryyyyy! ;D (Sorry, this is kind of a big moment for me)

Dunno, I'd have to muse on that one, but at a first glance it doesn't seem very likely. I may have to go back to some source material before I completely rule it out though.
Yeah, I know it probably isn't her type (I've seen some argue that her New 52 version is an INTJ). But what about like an "elseworlds" version where the version of Barbara is more INTJ-like? Kind of like how there have been variants of Nightwing that were more ESTJ-like (Teen Titans era) or ESFP (post-Devin Grayson era). It's more asking the question "what would it be like?" and then comparing it to how things would be, and asking if it would be a preferable or satisfactory version.
 

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My lord.

Were this thread to pop up a mere two years ago, I'd waste at least an hour reading this over twice, but now it just looks like a lot of work. Nice to see someone else obsessed with the "Hunk Wonder" though!

I do wanna say I've been part of the ENFJ camp for a few years, but not due to any massive analysis like what you've done I don't think as I actually found him pretty inconsistently written... maybe because I read Nightwing (pre-N52) and The New Teen Titans simultaneously and he was literally two different people in those? But anyway, I always thought he was Fe+Se for pretty simple reasons: 1) he's a thrillseeker and 2) he's stupidly fixated on making people happy. The latter is why he's so charming. He makes that extra effort to make others happy. I AM sympathetic to the idea of ESFP (Fi) because I can think of multiple instances where he's beaten himself up over an Fi ideal (the famous Blockbuster incident that sent him into a downward spiral), but it's just weird to me because it looks Fi on the surface, but in the aftermath, Batman clocks him with Fi. Batman reveals that Dick THINKS that he's feeling guilty because he's done something he believes BATMAN won't forgive. You see how that's Fe over Fi? Dick doesn't even consider that he needs to forgive himself until Batman suggests it. Basically, Batman calls him out on Dick's fishing for external validation from the man who taught him his moral code. It just smacked of Fe to me.

In TNTT, I think he was actually an introvert. Freaky to think about.

Anyway, I'll eventually get through this thread, but I thought I'd leave some ENFJ food for thought.

Edit: I have always thought there could be an argument for inferior Si based on that aftermath as well as I remember Barbara chastising him for chasing the past and "the way things were." Haven't entertained that idea enough yet, though, just tossing it out there.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
My lord.

Were this thread to pop up a mere two years ago, I'd waste at least an hour reading this over twice, but now it just looks like a lot of work. Nice to see someone else obsessed with the "Hunk Wonder" though!

I do wanna say I've been part of the ENFJ camp for a few years, but not due to any massive analysis like what you've done I don't think as I actually found him pretty inconsistently written... maybe because I read Nightwing (pre-N52) and The New Teen Titans simultaneously and he was literally two different people in those?
Come on in and read it, you know you wannnnntt tooooooo. Let your NeTi looooooose....

tumblr_lmdror0cb91qei38z.jpg

As far as the ENFJ thing goes, I totally get it by function. I think he's definitely on the ENFx line as far as the two he would be in. Stereotypically and real life application is where I'm completely lost on it. But I'm told MBTI apparently is strictly 100% pure function with no regard to real life application, so there's that. I'd explain the functions and my defense of ENFP and disagreement of ENFJ as far as functions go, but... well, I kind of went over it in the OP ;) You don't have to read the rest of the thread after the first post; it's mostly a debate I'm having over whether Bruce has been an ISTJ or INTJ and whether Tim has been an INTP or ENTJ. I guess it's not really the place for that, but then I'd have to keep my eye on three threads instead of one, so I'm outta luck there.

Anyway, you actually did make a good point about Dick's Fe with Blockbuster. I'd be willing to discuss it, but I think I'll make you read the OP first ;)
 

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Come on in and read it, you know you wannnnntt tooooooo. Let your NeTi looooooose....

View attachment 560066

As far as the ENFJ thing goes, I totally get it by function. I think he's definitely on the ENFx line as far as the two he would be in. Stereotypically and real life application is where I'm completely lost on it. But I'm told MBTI apparently is strictly 100% pure function with no regard to real life application, so there's that. I'd explain the functions and my defense of ENFP and disagreement of ENFJ as far as functions go, but... well, I kind of went over it in the OP ;) You don't have to read the rest of the thread after the first post; it's mostly a debate I'm having over whether Bruce has been an ISTJ or INTJ and whether Tim has been an INTP or ENTJ. I guess it's not really the place for that, but then I'd have to keep my eye on three threads instead of one, so I'm outta luck there.

Anyway, you actually did make a good point about Dick's Fe with Blockbuster. I'd be willing to discuss it, but I think I'll make you read the OP first ;)
You got me, you cheeky bastard. It was actually shorter than I thought.

Okay, so I do wanna say this: I totally agree that recent stories have him at the peak of ENFJ. I think his MBTI is a lot more ambiguous pre-N52. However, I would argue at the very least Dick was an Se-valuer as a kid in every comic ever. He loved performing in the circus because he loved the thrill of the tricks and shocking the audience. These are sentiments he consistently expresses regardless of who's at the helm of the book. He doesn't relent in the stories, frequently pushing people's buttons and engaging in reckless behavior for the fun of it. That was why Batman fired him: recklessness (although the Batfamily fangirl in me will tell you Bruce was pushing him away to keep Dick from leaving him first). And you're right -- he HIGHLY values his own freedom. If I could attribute that to any function, it would be Pe. Se or Ne. That's why I'm sympathetic to the idea of ESFP -- his Se is downright iconic.

So why then am I arguing it in the tertiary position? Because he puts others first all the fucking time. It's like his default setting. It's obnoxious(ly cute). He wants to make people happy and craves approval from Bruce. He understands people's objective emotional states whether he relates or not and can freely manipulate those emotions. He readily molds himself into Batman's moral compass rather than crafting his own. Do you see what I'm saying? I think his sense of right and wrong comes from WITHOUT not within. I see him as someone who sees killing as wrong because it hurts others rather than it being inherently wrong a la Batman (the IxTJest person ever). That's indicative of an extraverted orientation. Another difference between him and the Bat: he has to EXPRESS and encourages expression, especially from the Waynes who are allergic to expression. My mind goes to Knightfall when Bruce didn't even consider telling Dick why he wasn't chosen to be the next Batman. Dick is so direct in his confrontation and Bruce was like, "Oh, was I supposed to communicate that?"

His Ni isn't on display as much in the pre-N52 comics outside of his narration, but it's all over that narration. Constantly reading deeper meanings into finer details, constant leaps in judgment that are mostly correct. He's also very goal-oriented. He's hardheaded about achieving what he wants. He basically became Robin thanks to this tunnel vision. We definitely see a lot more FeNi in New 52 with his almost Terminator-like scans of people's body language and reading of emotion.

I'm still Team ENFJ. It's very difficult for me to picture Dick as anything but FeSe. He's just so damn fearless about the world of sensation, constantly seeking new experiences. I also seldom ever see him decide right and wrong based on anything that wasn't handed to him by Bruce.

As for Bruce and Tim, I have always pushed Bruce as ISTJ and this site always fights me on it lol. I think the idea of Batman is INTJ but the man himself isn't. Tim I've pegged as INTP. I think Damian is an ENTJ if any of Bruce's kids are.

EDIT: I realize I didn't address a lot of your points directly. The reason is you listed a lot of behaviors that you even concede could be ENFP or ENFJ. I'm taking a different route here by using his most stable attributes and tracing them down to a reason. Why does he take unnecessary risks? Because he finds them fun! Why does he choose to tell Batman how he feels? Because he wants Batman's reaction. Why does he choose to conceal his feelings from Batman? Because he's afraid of Batman's reaction. That's my approach.
 
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