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MOTM May 2011
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That article is pretty accurate. (and thanks for a good link). But it is not that we are ridden with anxiety--although we can become overly anxious if we aren't self-aware. It is more like that our continual question is "What if?" and so we base our plans on contingencies of known possible failures, to the point at which we feel comfortable moving forward with a plan. (What if as in what if <this particular concrete thing fails>)

HTH
 

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MOTM May 2011
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Is that why you don't open up to other people?
Yes. We are carefully analyzing actions and motives the person exhibits and comparing that to what we know about people in general and others like them. As trust develops, we gradually allow them into our lives and thoughts more deeply. With an ISTJ, anything or person is viewed as suspect until we can understand it/them. We understand by comparing their concrete behaviors to what we have stored in memory.

This is also why ISTJs can seem naive and gullible. We eventually do trust and if you act the part until we trust you, not realizing we are being deceived, people ask us why didn't we see that coming...

Of course, once you do that, we will never forget. Never.
 

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Niss - I think you just clarified something that I was wondering about. On several ISTJ threads, I have noticed that there is mention of "friendship worthiness"...meaning that ISTJs need to build up a trust level with people before they let them "in" to a more intimate friendship circle. I think ISTJs must have some internal criteria checklist to assess the "friendship worthiness" of people before you make a judgement to determine if you want to pursue a friendship with them or not.

From an outsider's perspective (and from an ENFP's perspective in particular), it is very daunting to read the signals of weather you (ISTJs) would like to pursue a friendship with us or not. I do not want to derail this thread by creating another topic but do you have any advice on how other people might be able to gently wittle away at the Si and prove that we might be worthy of having a friendship with you? Is it a matter of persistence, common experience, intellectual compatibility, a certain unwritten test that we must pass?
 

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I'm not an ISTJ, but my dominant function is also Si. While there are downsides, there are certainly awesome things about having dominant Si as well.

For me, I think it's because I have such a huge wealth of memories and I constantly revisit them...and it makes me feel extremely happy and pleased with my whole life. What's really nice for me is that I also feel the opportunity to repeat them, so it makes me feel really good about the future, too. It's just a great feeling of safety, peace, and contentment.

I think it helps to attribute to how I'm pretty easy to please and I'm always about the simple pleasures in life. To outsiders, my life may look boring or dull, and it may seem like I never do anything exciting or different. But the flip side is that I don't need to do all of that to be happy. That's not to say it's not nice to try new things and change things up a bit sometimes, but I don't feel as strong of a need for that as other types do.


So I think part of the reason why dominant Si looks so bad to an outsider is that the appeal of it is kind of hard to understand for someone who doesn't have it. But if you've ever been mystified as to how an ISJ can be so happy with so little excitement, then you can see some of its advantage.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yes but you guys are much easier to get a hold of. So answer my question.
 

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Yes but you guys are much easier to get a hold of. So answer my question.
Niss did answer your question already.
However, in my sleep-deprived stupor, I will make the attempt to elaborate.

I like to have a plan. Having concrete plans means that things go smoothly. When you don't have a plan, you waste so much time. It's frustrating just going willy-nilly around. I will give you an example:

The dreaded GROUP PROJECT. I usually end up being the de facto leader because no one else will do anything. I don't relish the role of leader, but will assume the mantle if necessary. At any rate, when it becomes apparent that the group is behind schedule, when members of the group aren't contributing their fair share, etc., panic sets in because we do not want to fail. We want to succeed in everything that we do (and become VERY frustrated in an instance like this because we know that we are perfectly capable of doing "A" level work on our own). The thought that others in the group will drag us down freaks us out and so we start to externally exert more and more control over the situation. The others in the group cannot understand that we don't want to fail and that we want to do well; all they perceive is that we are "control freaks", "anal-retentive", and a host of other things that can't be repeated in a family-friendly forum.

HTH
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Niss did answer your question already.
However, in my sleep-deprived stupor, I will make the attempt to elaborate.

I like to have a plan. Having concrete plans means that things go smoothly. When you don't have a plan, you waste so much time. It's frustrating just going willy-nilly around. I will give you an example:

The dreaded GROUP PROJECT. I usually end up being the de facto leader because no one else will do anything. I don't relish the role of leader, but will assume the mantle if necessary. At any rate, when it becomes apparent that the group is behind schedule, when members of the group aren't contributing their fair share, etc., panic sets in because we do not want to fail. We want to succeed in everything that we do (and become VERY frustrated in an instance like this because we know that we are perfectly capable of doing "A" level work on our own). The thought that others in the group will drag us down freaks us out and so we start to externally exert more and more control over the situation. The others in the group cannot understand that we don't want to fail and that we want to do well; all they perceive is that we are "control freaks", "anal-retentive", and a host of other things that can't be repeated in a family-friendly forum.

HTH
I feel like ISTJ's and INTP's or INTX's really could get along really well. We are really similar but for different reasons. My obsession with achievement, competence, rationality and ideological loyalty I think manifest themselves in the same way your Si pushes you.
 

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MOTM May 2011
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Niss - I think you just clarified something that I was wondering about. On several ISTJ threads, I have noticed that there is mention of "friendship worthiness"...meaning that ISTJs need to build up a trust level with people before they let them "in" to a more intimate friendship circle. I think ISTJs must have some internal criteria checklist to assess the "friendship worthiness" of people before you make a judgement to determine if you want to pursue a friendship with them or not.

From an outsider's perspective (and from an ENFP's perspective in particular), it is very daunting to read the signals of weather you (ISTJs) would like to pursue a friendship with us or not. I do not want to derail this thread by creating another topic but do you have any advice on how other people might be able to gently wittle away at the Si and prove that we might be worthy of having a friendship with you? Is it a matter of persistence, common experience, intellectual compatibility, a certain unwritten test that we must pass?
In typical ENFP fashion, you are able to extract information from me, even though the topic is energy draining--mostly because you are so nice. Sometimes I feel like putty in the hands of an ENFP. Not complaining, just knowing that the act of touching my inner self in order to answer this post will be draining.

Why it is draining to answer this post touches on the actual question. As dominant Si users, we simply know--just like you simply know, but can't exactly explain how you use Ne. So, it is effortless for us to use Si. We don't think about it, we don't analyze that use, it just is something we do without thought. Since emotions and abstracts are difficult for us, analyzing these inner workings of our psyche is exhausting.

I get the feeling that other types, in trying to figure out dominant Si users, resort to analogies to make the process more understandable. So they create analogy of Si users using internal, comparative lists, which are based on our sensory data perceptions, and stored in a memory bank, to be brought up and checked off when a similar situation is encountered, allowing us to comparatively recognize and understand a concept based on these stored past experiences.

And to be fair, this is not far off. We do compare everything to internal stored data, but the process is effortless, concrete, and extremely accurate. It is not a check list, where we are mentally checking off each item until we have an "Ah Ha!" moment. It is more like panning for gold, where you are sifting through all of the silt and sand, looking for the tiny flakes of shiny metal. Our filters do this for us. And then, when we get down to the shiny flakes, we begin to trust that we do really have gold--an understanding that can be trusted, but we scrutinize it a little more to make sure it isn't fool's gold, but that it is bonafide and the real deal. Once we do that, it is no longer something that is scrutinized, but it is now accepted. Therefore it becomes a part of our stored data and will be used to reference new data against.

I know this is wordy--I'm sorry--but not enough to quit, yet.:crazy:

So how does one determine whether or not we want a friendship with you? It's easy. We are actually very accepting of people in general and so it is best to proceed on the assumption that we do want a relationship with you. If it comes to a point where we don't want a relationship with you, we will walk away, avoid you, un-invite ourselves to activities where you will be, refuse anything to do with you. People that we enjoy, we hang around with. If we don't like you, we simply refuse to associate with you. Therefore, if the ISTJ is there with you, rest assured that they don't dislike you.

Now, if you want to dig deeper, to develop a closer relationship with us, then do things with us. We do like to go places and do things, but we often don't get invited because people are unsure of us. Be realistic in your invitations: Don't ask us to go wind-sailing and be surprised if we turn you down. We are risk adverse until we know the activity well enough to feel that the risks are manageable.

If you ask us to do something relatively mundane and we refuse, it is best to assume that we were busy. Don't assume that we are avoiding you. After three tries, yeah you could say that we are not that interested, and move on.

Be direct. And sincere. We appreciate clarity. If you want a specific thing from us, tell us what you want, in a very concrete fashion. So if you have met an ISTJ that interests you and you think you would like to get to know them better, say that--exactly. We appreciate non-confrontational directness.

But if you think a guy is cute and you walk up with a couple of your girlfriends and drop some comment about us being cute, you've just lost us. Our filter will tell us that you are mocking us in some manner that we don't understand and will carefully begin to analyze the situation. Not finding anything wrong with our appearance at the time will result in a decision that you are not to be trusted. Flirty comments should be avoided in a group setting. Flirty comments in a more private setting will be interpreted as interest.

Time. Spend time with us. Most ISTJs have quality time as one of their top love languages. Talking, hanging out, doing things together, and sharing a meal--you are on your way to an ISTJ friendship. We are sensors, so sharing concrete tangibles like these will mean a lot and bring back good memories of you.

I've gone on too long. Most of the ISTJs will have bailed on this post long ago. Anywho--I hope it helps you:happy:.
 

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The dreaded GROUP PROJECT. I usually end up being the de facto leader because no one else will do anything. I don't relish the role of leader, but will assume the mantle if necessary. At any rate, when it becomes apparent that the group is behind schedule, when members of the group aren't contributing their fair share, etc., panic sets in because we do not want to fail. We want to succeed in everything that we do (and become VERY frustrated in an instance like this because we know that we are perfectly capable of doing "A" level work on our own). The thought that others in the group will drag us down freaks us out and so we start to externally exert more and more control over the situation. The others in the group cannot understand that we don't want to fail and that we want to do well; all they perceive is that we are "control freaks", "anal-retentive", and a host of other things that can't be repeated in a family-friendly forum.
Wow -- I think our two types are more similar than I had thought. This is exactly how I react in a group work situation. People who refuse to do 'enough' work for me to get my A really irritate me and so I either take on far too much of the workload myself or, as impromptu self-appointed group leader, I will get on everyone's cases and thus earn that 'control freak' name. I love working in groups, but I hate being dragged down by group work :angry:

But I agree about the Si -- I love thinking things through in advance and having a 'plan' ready for each and every situation I might find myself in. It may look like a constant stream of 'panic' to an outsider, but when the chips are down I have an immediate plan of action ready to go and will reasonably instinctively implement it. The so-called panic in advance saves time by allowing me to not panic when the situation actually eventuates.
 

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Not complaining, just knowing that the act of touching my inner self in order to answer this post will be draining.
Thank you. :happy: I'm sure it was tiring to write that long response...but I found it very helpful and it's cleared up a few questions and doubts I have about an ISTJ's in my life. Sometimes the lack of expressed emotion makes me wonder how he feels about me...or if he really want me around. In my brain if somebody cares for you they express it either verbally or in writing. Or by acts of kindness. I guess I needed to understand that since he continually reaches out to me and responds favorably to my invitations...that I need not question that he enjoys having me in his life. Thanks again. :happy:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
My Fe drives me to similar conclusions in the presence of ISTJ's.
 

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I get the feeling that other types, in trying to figure out dominant Si users, resort to analogies to make the process more understandable. So they create analogy of Si users using internal, comparative lists, which are based on our sensory data perceptions, and stored in a memory bank, to be brought up and checked off when a similar situation is encountered, allowing us to comparatively recognize and understand a concept based on these stored past experiences.

And to be fair, this is not far off. We do compare everything to internal stored data, but the process is effortless, concrete, and extremely accurate. It is not a check list, where we are mentally checking off each item until we have an "Ah Ha!" moment. It is more like panning for gold, where you are sifting through all of the silt and sand, looking for the tiny flakes of shiny metal. Our filters do this for us. And then, when we get down to the shiny flakes, we begin to trust that we do really have gold--an understanding that can be trusted, but we scrutinize it a little more to make sure it isn't fool's gold, but that it is bonafide and the real deal. Once we do that, it is no longer something that is scrutinized, but it is now accepted. Therefore it becomes a part of our stored data and will be used to reference new data against.
Thanks for your reply - the above paragraph is exceptionally poetic! One thing that ENFPs strive for is authenticity. I appreciate the ISTJs process in searching for their own standard of authenticity in friendships. I think we both go about it in very different ways but our goals are the same...searching for the friendship gold and real connections.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Don't ISTJ's realize that all of their relationships will wither if they don't reveal themselves? I mean doesn't the price of NOT opening up negate the seeming cost OF opening up? Does necessity force them to grow and stretch themselves? Or are they utterly unyielding in this regard?
 
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