[sinistralpal]

This thread was inspired by Wulfdot's post on an INTJ thread:

Actually, there is no insecurity. I hate when people say that, because the world has now convinced people that when someone is arrogant they're insecure about something. Most of the ENTP males are not insecure, we just have low low Fe and find it amusing to lash out at other people. There is no hidden mask, what you see is what you get, and your evidence of insecurity is the same with INTJs. If I were to dismantle an INTJ's ego they would crumble into an insecure state and lock themselves off, I know because I have.

Your evidence is like saying a chipmunk is insecure because it collects food for the winter. If you were to steal all the chipmunks food, yes, the chipmunk would probably break down; However, if you leave the chipmunk alone you'll notice that it is actually happy with who it is. The same for immature ENTP males. If you left our egos alone you'll notice that we don't care but when you start messing with us and dismantling us we care because you're trying to destroy who we are. ENTPs care a lot about who they are and dislike when other people try to break them down and change them, tell them they're something they're not.

This comment struck a nerve for me, as recently, a lot of people have been "calling me out" on my mask/façade that I "protect myself with". That I am not "showing my true self" and "remain aloof". Apparently, I am too "sarcastic about the world" and at times am incredibly "superficial". People worry about how depressed with my situation I really am, as they think I am keeping something locked inside, which "really isn't healthy".

If I do cry or really try to spell out my insecurities for someone, they get all excited and think they have broken down the mask, and they see my "true colours". Then they are really pissed off with me when I "revert" to putting "the mask" back on. However, how I see it, is like a floating buoy, that for a while I can forcibly shove down deep into the water, then, after a while, I got tired and had to let go, allowing it to spring back up to float on the surface of the water. THAT is it's natural position. I can't keep up what I consider to be wallowing in misery. People can't understand how I might have been really shaken up about something, and an hour later seem perfectly in control and making jokes. They think that I am in denial, and need emotional support. No, I just figured out a way to solve the problem, and have moved on.

And again, I have to agree with Wulfdot when he says that for people who try to dig out our insecurities and remove the supposed mask we have on, you are dismantling US, and in fact will cause a personality crisis. It goes beyond popping someone's inflated ego, into literally not knowing who someone is.

IT'S NOT A FUCKING MASK, IT'S MY FUCKING FACE! /facepalm.


Anyway, ENTP support group on this topic? Have you experienced similar problems?

How do you view your supposed "arrogance"? Do people see you as having a mask or façade when you actually don't think you are hiding anything, you are just being you?

And the irony of all ironies - what about a way to put up a façade of Fe to hide the seemingly-a-façade face of arrogant aloofness?

 

[Tad Cooper]

Sounds very familiar. I think people dislike the fact someone can actually be confident and not have many obvious insecurities. My ex bf wanted me to be more emotional and then freaked out the one time I cried in front of him, but I never had a mask of being reserved up, I'm just not an emotional person in that way. I AM emotional, but I express it very differently.
My mum and friends worry I have alot I'm hiding from them and I have some stuff, but not that much, so I guess people see ENTPs as being fake because they can be confident and independent and not worry too much?

 

[Monte]

Wow, all of this is so true.

I've learned that people are going to be convinced that I'm just chock full of insecurities, there's nothing I can do about it. The more they tell me to "open up" the more I ignore them/distance my emotions from them because I know that if I do express my emotions in a way they want, it would be like a poacher getting a tiger's skin or something. They just want it for their own greedy reasons, it's a prize to them.

I cried in front of my "best friend" once when I was younger... she turned me towards her with a surprised, happy smile and said "Oh my god, are you actually crying? Wow!".

I punched her in the face and kicked her in the throat.

We aren't friends anymore.

 

[st0831]

Anyway, ENTP support group on this topic? Have you experienced similar problems?

How do you view your supposed "arrogance"? Do people see you as having a mask or façade when you actually don't think you are hiding anything, you are just being you?

I have a lab partner/friend who was a peer educator and often present in social functions engineered for depressed, suicidal, and drug abusing students. As our labs experiments became more intense, our friendship became more closer due to spending more time together. She also commuted with me often when I used to take a commuter rail to school. As time went by, I shared some of my life's experiences and outlook on society and life. I do this to everyone who I feel is capable of understanding my viewpoints. Eventually, she deduced that I was depressed. I couldn't understand where she came from and she insisted I get help. She said I was in denial and people that are depressed are always in denial.

The funny thing is, I know when I am in depression. I bring myself out of it with my own mind and hands. I'm used to the roller-coaster mood swings but I have accepted that is part of life. How is that depression in the traditional sense? My depression is just a period of low activeness and productivity. I may spend some time to recuperate and gather my thoughts. But isn't this all part of life? Why is there a diagnosis for these things? Also, suicide has never came into my mind because life is worth more living than dying. Just by the latter statement, depression is certainly dispelled.
Anyway, every time I get into the situation with her where I discuss my future plans, outlook, and opinion, she mentions I am depressed and need to seek help. I told her that I don't need it. I hope she learned something that not all "negative" viewpoints necessarily dictate depression.

I view...
...society as a battleground, not paradise.
...intelligent people as a potential for great construction but also great destruction.
...people that are narrow-minded are not intelligent. Doesn't matter if you're a scientist, president, or "genius".
...death as part of the cycle where I don't stop or encourage its doing.
...that most people who have higher job positions, have their positions just because they learned to abuse the system. Their incompetence can be visualized even if I am blind (no I'm not!).
...money as paper.

At the end of discussion, I always reflect to improve on my life. This is why I like talking to people and their experiences so that I may improve on myself. It's an mutual exchange of wisdom. Apparently, it comes out to be depression. lol...

Overall, she's a nice girl and I'm sure a lot of guys would enjoy her as a partner because of her desire to understand things. I see that as positive. Realism is real, if something does not ever happen (like the sky falling down), it is called impossible. Having a false sense of security is fatal as is being too optimistic.

 

[SlowPoke68]

Yes, I get that a lot.

Someone very close to me calls the "mask" my "walls". She calls it my defense mechanism. We can be having a very intimate time and I'll suddenly make some absurd observation or a joke, or I'll be spilling my heart out and suddenly pull back and act like I just noticed a need a new lawnmower.

How ironic! How funny! She hates it.

She hates it because she says it keeps us from being close. And the thing is, she's right. I just had to wait until middle age to realize what it was doing to me. I am now trying to keep the walls down. I got sick of being alone, even when I was with someone.

I will say that I think any attempts I made earlier to bring down the walls failed because of that behavior from other people you point out so well. Those I tried to share things with often turned it into a contest of some kind--an exhibition. They also tried many times to use the occasion to manipulate me in some way. Not all of them did, but enough to matter. I learned not to trust people. Eventually I stopped trusting myself. That wasn't good at all.

So yeah, the mask is there, I think. Everyone has one.

In fact, reminds me of this:

 

[dagnytaggart]

Actually, I DO have a mask. However, contrary to whatever that guy thought, it's to HIDE my confidence (which could be perceived as arrogance) in order to mesh with society better. I draw the line at the compliment-fishing circle. If you've ever seen Mean Girls, you know what I mean.

DD-cup girl: "OMG my boobs are so teeny!"
70 lb girl: "Oh hon, *please*. They could feed Nairobi. I'm sooo fat, I hate it."
Puffer-fish lip girl: "Oh girl you know you're soooooo skinny, I hate my lips! They're even thinner than you are!"
Me: "I'm fucking hot."
Girls: *gasp* BITCH!

As for being a dickish twat though...that's all natural. :laughing:

 

[YourMom]

A lot of my friends have told me that I seem to try to act like a hard-ass, which is not at all right. I'm just a cynical bastard by nature. The views I express are my actual views on the world, and I would never lie about my views or about myself (in a major way) to please anyone. I basically live to please myself, and I please myself by being brutally honest. I am pretty much like a younger version of Bill Maher, personality-wise.

I read somewhere last night that ENTPs are the "pushovers of the extroverts". I couldn't disagree more. Some idiot compared us to Ross from Friends (who is an obvious ExFJ). I don't know about you guys, but I'm stubborn as fuck, and I only cave to someone's demands if it makes sense logically.

Obviously we all have some insecurities, but ENTPs are among the most confident of all the types, along with ENTJs and ESTPs. I guess you can toss ESTJs in there is well, but they're not at the same level as us confident-wise.

The thing is, if I realize I have an insecurity, be it a fear or something that just bothers me, I find a way to get rid of it. I see it as a nuisance and something that needs to be gotten rid of. If it's a fear I face it. If something about myself bothers me I either change it or accept it. There is no point in spending my time thinking about meaningless negative crap when there are so many opportunities to enjoy life.

So do I put a mask on? No, not at all. Either you accept me for who I am, or you can let the door hit your ass on the way out.

I wasn't always like this though. When I was a kid, up to about age 17, I used to try to fit in by talking the same way as everyone else, dressing the same way as everyone else, acting the same way as everyone else. Now according to conventional rule, I was a "normal" person. But the result was that I was scared to be expressive, scared to do and say whatever I felt like, scared to hang out with certain people because of what they might think. I was so scared of what people might think of me that I had no real friends for a number of years. I had a lot of acquaintances, people who I'd talk to on the surface, but I was scared of rejection, and that made me not even try.

Around age 18 I became aware of this situation and the glitch in my thinking pattern, so I deliberately narrowed in on all of my social fears and said "fuck it, from now on if I feel like saying something I'll say it". It took a while to get into that habit, but now when I meet people who I knew and last saw in high school or elementary school, they are often shocked at how much I changed. I used to be considered shy, now I am the first person to go and talk to a stranger. I've always had a natural charm once I felt comfortable around a person, now I'm comfortable around everyone, so more people love me.

Masks are for the ESFx's. ENTPs do and say whatever the fuck we want. Today I went to the convenience store and this hot 30 year-old woman (unmarried) was walking in front of me. I deliberately started walking faster to catch up to her and immediately started talking to her, charming her etc. Anyways, she cashed out a minute or two before me and got quite a head start on the walk back. But I have long legs and got within yelling distance. So I yelled out "Hey, wait up!" She waited for me and when I got to her, I said "So many times I meet someone for five minutes and start having a great conversation with them only to never see them again. Have you ever experienced this?" She agreed with me, so I continued, "Well you know what? I don't want this to be one of those times, so I'm curious, what are you up to right now?" Turns out she has a kid at home who she had to go make dinner for. I don't like hanging out with kids, so I told her "Well, since you are busy at the moment, let me grab your number and I will text you early this week". So we exchanged numbers, I gave her a hug, a kiss on the cheek and left. I'm 21 by the way. I think this story relates to this topic.

So, would a person with a mask have done this? I think not. There would have been to much fear and insecurity to deal with.

 

[Goodewitch]

ENTP

Masks? ..No.. Low Fe? Yes, definately.
Sometimes ENTP arent hiding deep insecurities, or bitterness, they're not being defensive, of deflective, they really are just that obnoxious, and I quite like them for it.
They're authentic, even when being rude or distracted and not paying attention.
I suspect a lot of ENTP's dont quite understand their own convoluted functions, never mind ordinary folk understanding them. I think its arroagnce and ignorance in others that lead them to dismiss the ENTP persona as a mask.
Its non conformist enough to upset people, therefore they seek a way to explain away this perceived social gaff of ENTP's.
I just observe ENTP's, I've learned a few things this way,..to assume theres a mask is incorrect, they have many faces, all of them real, and they make up the persona of ENTP.
Acceptance of people who's functions are a mystery to most others, is uncommon.
I'm INFJ, I should know about that,
I like ENTP's, they very strange creatures (in a marvellous, magical way) and I'm glad the world has them.
They can make me giggle and smile, a wonderful gift they bestow on all of us 'Why so serious?..INFJ's..
G. x

 

[Mendelevium]

Oh, the mercy. If my arrogant phase is a mask, then everything is a mask I don and I am just existential nothingness underneath. (The idea has occurred to me more than once, when I noted my ability to absorb and assimilate.)

Obviously, I am not ENTP, but thank you anyways. It was interestingly insightful.

 

[amajakgar]

I put the mask on for work, because none of the people I work with can handle me with the mask off. I used to be extremely outspoken, a relentless idea/solution generator, a rabid debater and one angry motherfucker when these spineless bitches would try to weasel out of an obvious checkmate by claiming Sarbanes-Oxley or some other chickenshit excuse/rule. Fuckers! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

So every morning, I wake-up...shit, shower and shave (actually I gave up on this, because I hate it and I don't give a shit about what anyone at work thinks)...get dressed and drive to work. When I walk into the building, I put my mask on and start the day.

Co-worker: Good morning!​

Me: Good morning. (What the fuck do you want?)​

Co-worker: Have you finished that TPS report? The auditors are here and Lumbergh is looking for you.​

Me: No problem, I'll go talk to him. (Whatever.)​

I actually call it "playing the game" and whenever I stop playing the game, my friends and/or wife will tell me to "get back in the game" or "get your head in the game" or "put your game face on!" These are all cues to stop taking this bullshit so seriously, because at the end of the day...it's just a job and it's not anywhere close to being in the top ten list of things that are important to me.

 

[YourMom]

I put the mask on for work, because none of the people I work with can handle me with the mask off. I used to be extremely outspoken, a relentless idea/solution generator, a rabid debater and one angry motherfucker when these spineless bitches would try to weasel out of an obvious checkmate by claiming Sarbanes-Oxley or some other chickenshit excuse/rule. Fuckers! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

So every morning, I wake-up...shit, shower and shave (actually I gave up on this, because I hate it and I don't give a shit about what anyone at work thinks)...get dressed and drive to work. When I walk into the building, I put my mask on and start the day.

Co-worker: Good morning!​

Me: Good morning. (What the fuck do you want?)​

Co-worker: Have you finished that TPS report? The auditors are here and Lumbergh is looking for you.​

Me: No problem, I'll go talk to him. (Whatever.)​

I actually call it "playing the game" and whenever I stop playing the game, my friends and/or wife will tell me to "get back in the game" or "get your head in the game" or "put your game face on!" These are all cues to stop taking this bullshit so seriously, because at the end of the day...it's just a job and it's not anywhere close to being in the top ten list of things that are important to me.

Not in the top ten list , you say, yet it is where you spend 33% of your time. If all it is is you getting paid for your time then you should quit. It's obviously not making you happy. Quit and start your own thing. You're ENTP, so you've been blessed with the gift of automatic entrepreneurship.

 

[amajakgar]

Not in the top ten list , you say, yet it is where you spend 33% of your time. If all it is is you getting paid for your time then you should quit. It's obviously not making you happy. Quit and start your own thing. You're ENTP, so you've been blessed with the gift of automatic entrepreneurship.

I also spend 33% of my time sleeping, but sleep isn't in my top ten either. Seriously though, I wish it were that simple...I really do...however I've built a standard of living around this salary and I highly doubt that my "gift" could sustain this lifestyle (at least in the short term). I know this sounds like a cop-out, but I'm too old and have too many people depending on me to just walk away and start fresh.

I admire your ENTP spirit...I wish I would've discovered mine about 20 years earlier.

 

[sinistralpal]

You're ENTP, so you've been blessed with the gift of automatic entrepreneurship.

Love it.

Is there already a thread on ENTP careers? It's crazy because I have basically meandered into entrepreneurship without thinking. I think any career I choose would end up that way...just me doing my own thing.

 

[YourMom]

I also spend 33% of my time sleeping, but sleep isn't in my top ten either. Seriously though, I wish it were that simple...I really do...however I've built a standard of living around this salary and I highly doubt that my "gift" could sustain this lifestyle (at least in the short term). I know this sounds like a cop-out, but I'm too old and have too many people depending on me to just walk away and start fresh.

I admire your ENTP spirit...I wish I would've discovered mine about 20 years earlier.

Well you're still left with 8 hours a day to work on a new business. That's what I did during the school year. I'd go to school 8 hours a day, sleep 6-8, and spend the rest of my time planning my business. By the time vacation rolled around everything was ready.

If you find something you love it won't even feel like work. Just keep going at it until you start making enough from your business to quit your day job.

 

[Tad Cooper]

ENTP

Masks? ..No.. Low Fe? Yes, definately.
Sometimes ENTP arent hiding deep insecurities, or bitterness, they're not being defensive, of deflective, they really are just that obnoxious, and I quite like them for it.
They're authentic, even when being rude or distracted and not paying attention.
I suspect a lot of ENTP's dont quite understand their own convoluted functions, never mind ordinary folk understanding them. I think its arroagnce and ignorance in others that lead them to dismiss the ENTP persona as a mask.
Its non conformist enough to upset people, therefore they seek a way to explain away this perceived social gaff of ENTP's.
I just observe ENTP's, I've learned a few things this way,..to assume theres a mask is incorrect, they have many faces, all of them real, and they make up the persona of ENTP.
Acceptance of people who's functions are a mystery to most others, is uncommon.
I'm INFJ, I should know about that,
I like ENTP's, they very strange creatures (in a marvellous, magical way) and I'm glad the world has them.
They can make me giggle and smile, a wonderful gift they bestow on all of us 'Why so serious?..INFJ's..
G. x

Haha I had a 'non conformist' experience today! Me and my older sister (ESTJ) were debating about war (the Faulklands) and my view was so strange (I said we shouldn't have fought that war) she walked out the room in annoyance whereas I was shocked by how conformist she could be (she was really patriotic about it saying Thatcher was right to step in a kill all those people) we're also both very stubborn and wont back down.
I completely agree with not being able to understand myself and get annoyed when people state they 'know' me, when even I don't know me. My other sister (INFJ) knows me very well though, it's like she's psychic!

 

[Octarine]

Haha I had a 'non conformist' experience today! Me and my older sister (ESTJ) were debating about war (the Faulklands) and my view was so strange (I said we shouldn't have fought that war) she walked out the room in annoyance whereas I was shocked by how conformist she could be (she was really patriotic about it saying Thatcher was right to step in a kill all those people) we're also both very stubborn and wont back down.
I completely agree with not being able to understand myself and get annoyed when people state they 'know' me, when even I don't know me. My other sister (INFJ) knows me very well though, it's like she's psychic!

Hahaha! Arguing with SJ?! Waste of time! Save your precious arguments for some one reasonable!

 

[Tad Cooper]

Hahaha! Arguing with SJ?! Waste of time! Save your precious arguments for some one reasonable!

Yeah it did feel like a waste of time as I was apparently 'wrong' even though I was stating an opinion...

 

[amajakgar]

If you find something you love it won't even feel like work. Just keep going at it until you start making enough from your business to quit your day job.

Simple and yet, so profound. I like it. Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[SlowPoke68]

Entrepreneurship works for some people. A few of them. :happy:

But . . .

I at one time thought I was destined for it--back in my early 20's. I had the experience of running my dad's business for a while after he died and I thought that at a better time in better industry I could really kick ass. So my choice of starting my own company ironically led me through a winding path to the IT department of a big retail company, where my almost total lack of investment in my own career allowed me to be more daring and creative than anyone else who "belonged" there. After a while I realized that a steady paycheck and benefits allowed me to enjoy things in life that had nothing to do with money or business.

When you are running your own business you're basically at it 24/7. My sister (an ENTJ entrepreneur) compared her business to a "sick, retarded child who can't give you 5 minutes peace and hates you".

When you work for a big company you can reach a point in dealing with a problem and say "You know, that's not my job. If I can't solve this it's a management problem, so escalate it. I've got a breakfast burrito with my name on it downstairs." You then walk away and enjoy breakfast and work on other things and leave at the end of the day and you still get paid and have benefits and can take vacation and in your end of the year review you spin this event as an example of how you "escalate appropriately" and you get a bonus and a raise for knowing when something is not your job and having breakfast instead of banging your head against a wall.

Doing something like that as an entrepreneur will make you go out of business in a hurry. But not before it beats you up and wears on you and makes you wish you worked for the Post Office instead.

Just something to consider . . .

 

[amajakgar]

When you work for a big company you can reach a point in dealing with a problem and say "You know, that's not my job. If I can't solve this it's a management problem, so escalate it. I've got a breakfast burrito with my name on it downstairs." You then walk away and enjoy breakfast and work on other things and leave at the end of the day and you still get paid and have benefits and can take vacation and in your end of the year review you spin this event as an example of how you "escalate appropriately" and you get a bonus and a raise for knowing when something is not your job and having breakfast instead of banging your head against a wall.

I couldn't have said it better myself. My job is not my dream job, nor does it make me happy/unhappy...it's just there. But because I make over $100K/year and get free health insurance, 3 months off a year in vacation/holidays, etc., I would be hard-pressed to say "Fuck this! I can do the same or better on my own."

My wife has her own business and she works her ass off for a fraction of what I make.

For all of you ENTP youngbloods out there...I think it's noble that you want to go out and conquer the world and do your own thing...however just make sure you have a Plan B in place.