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I have an ESFJ best friend. She is really nice and there when I need her. She is great fun to be with, laugh and very supportive. Her drawback, I'd say, is she likes to gossip. Since, she is such a nice person overall, I overlook that part of her. Once I had the flu, and my temperature was very high. I though I was about to die. It was raining, and her one windshield wiper was broken, yet she took me to the ER. I'll always be thankful to her for that :). In all you guys are awesome, but sometimes I think our J's and P's clash :).
 

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Perfect. Now I have a space to gush about my fav ESFJ guilt-free >:)

I can't speak for all ESFJs, but the one I know is amazing. She's very considerate, of both her friends and family, always warm, attentive, caring. Whatever I'm feeling, I know I can come to her and she'll listen - she's been there for me more times than I can count. Sometimes the advice-giver side comes out which I don't always appreciate, but at the end of the day I know she's just trying to help. Also, she has an adventurous side that's always fun for me to see.

You guys are great. I tend to enjoy being around Fe-doms in general because of how well you guys receive our strong emotions in comparison to some other types. Thanks for that.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
You guys are great. I tend to enjoy being around Fe-doms in general because of how well you guys receive our strong emotions in comparison to some other types. Thanks for that.
Thanks @katnip. Weirdly, the whole reason I started this thread was because all my closest friends are Te/i doms (2 of my best friends are an ISTJ and an INTJ) and after learning various things since joining PerC, it just kinda got me wondering what it would be like to know more Fe/i doms.
 

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One of my best friends is an ESFJ. Along with at least two women I've dated. From the perspective of an INTJ:

Easy to talk to.

Magnetic personalities, at least as first impressions.

They can be very supportive of things other wouldn't be...but that support seems to change with the wind depending on who's around. They seem to always agree with whoever they hold in the highest regard, or whoever makes them look the best socially, but they're always 100% on your side when it's just you two together.

They can be your best friend one day, and completely dismissive of you the next day when they're with someone or talking to someone they like more. Example, just so you know what I mean, because we ALL pay more attention to people we like more: One of my best friends has never been great with women. He was single for 3 years and slept with 3 women in that time, but he tries harder than just about anyone I know, to get laid, so 3 is a low number for all that effort. But then he got a girlfriend, and when I tried to talk to him one day before work, I walked up to the his car window and he SHOOED me away with his hand, and gave me a look like he didn't know why the hell I would try to talk to him. Apparently he was talking to his gf on the phone, using the car speakers so there's no way I would've known what he was doing at first. But then at work he was suddenly my buddy again. I almost ended the friendship because of that type of disrespect. We definitely haven't been the same since then. That's just one example, but ESFJ women I dated have done VERY similar things, and they're the only one's I've encountered so far who have done that.

Whenever they're interested in something, it's for a VERY short time, and it's usually because it's trendy in their circle. They know people who have been working out recently and getting results, suddenly they want to workout. It last for maybe a couple months, and they quit. People they know start riding motorcycles, suddenly they buy a motorcycle and you never see it again after 2-3 months. People are talking about a Spartan Race, they suddenly want to train for it, then back out of it a month before it happens (I actually predicted this the moment someone told me about his plans). They want to start doing overtime to make more money, but fake being sick and call out the first day of the pay period because they don't want to work. They tend to talk about these BIG plans they have for the future, based on their friends interests, but they never actually follow through with anything that takes any kind of commitment. And when they cancel plans, it tends to be at the very last minute, and tends to be because they made other plans at the very last minute.

Seem to be more concerned with social status than deep friendship.

They can be very generous, but their generosity seems to also depend on what you can do for them socially, or to make themselves look better in other people's eyes...though that generosity is still welcome.

From what I've seen, ESFJs are GREAT as long as you're the #1 person in the room to them, and are especially great if you're genuinely their best friend. But if you aren't their best friend, they'll make you think they are until someone better comes along, then suddenly you're cut off, which creates a painful sense of betrayal, they they later try to reverse by treating you like besties again.

I can't say they're ALL like this. I've dated 3 who tested as ESFJs and have had 2 friends who tested as that, and they all shared these exact same qualities. They are not a type I get along with great as anything more than acquaintances, but I can see how some people would like them.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Hi @Steelight hope you don't mind me asking more on the following:

But then he got a girlfriend, and when I tried to talk to him one day before work, I walked up to the his car window and he SHOOED me away with his hand, and gave me a look like he didn't know why the hell I would try to talk to him. Apparently he was talking to his gf on the phone, using the car speakers so there's no way I would've known what he was doing at first. But then at work he was suddenly my buddy again.
I don't entirely understand why this is an issue?

Apparently he was talking to his gf on the phone, using the car speakers so there's no way I would've known what he was doing at first. But then at work he was suddenly my buddy again. I almost ended the friendship because of that type of disrespect. We definitely haven't been the same since then.
Granted, I wasn't there so can't really envision the situation to its full, but it sounds a bit over the top to end a friendship over that?

I'm presuming from reading through the rest of your post, this is the same person as above so I guess it all adds up?

People they know start riding motorcycles, suddenly they buy a motorcycle and you never see it again after 2-3 months.
:confused: Excuse the rhetorical question, but why would anyone go to that extreme LOL?

And when they cancel plans, it tends to be at the very last minute, and tends to be because they made other plans at the very last minute
I admit, I have been guilty of this from time to time, but not for the reasons you've stated/assumed. Sometimes when I've agreed to meet with a friend, and something else has suddenly come up, I'll normally try to find ways to make re-arrangements or somehow make it work. I'm willing to concede it would be better to just admit defeat and let the person know in advance rather than leave it to the last second trying to make something work that won't.
 

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It's no problem.

I don't entirely understand why this is an issue?
It was the fact that he dismissively shooed me away. Didn't even bother to roll his window down for 2 seconds to say "Hey, I'll talk to you in a minute" or something like that. Just waved me away with his hand. That's horribly disrespectful, ESPECIALLY to someone you consider a friend. I'm sure if you walked up to a friend of yours with something to say, and he was talking to his new GF (they had been together less than a week at this point), and he waved you away without a word, and with an angry look on his face as soon as he saw you, you'd probably be upset too. And maybe it's a type thing, but the only thing I tolerate worse than willful ignorance is blatant disrespect.

If that was the only incident where he'd done something like that, it wouldn't be worth ending a friendship, but it wasn't his first offense. It was definitely his WORST offense, but far from the first, and he's the only person I consider a friend who even has any "offenses" with me, so it's lucky we're even still friends at this point. But what made that situation so much worse was that he had JUST gotten with this girl. Like, the MOMENT he had a GF, he suddenly didn't care about anyone that wouldn't let him stick his dick in her. It's one thing to have less time for other people when you're in a relationship. It's another thing to intentionally blow them off.

Although the question about the motorcycle thing was rhetorical, it was an actual thing that happened with another friend I had, which is why I mentioned it. A few other people we knew, who'd had bikes for a while, were getting more active with them, and he felt like he had to be part of the crowd (or so it appeared from my POV), so he went and bought a bike. Then traded it in for a different one less than 2 months later. He rode these bikes everywhere, but a couple months after he got the second bike, I never saw him on a bike again. I forgot what he said he did with it, but he doesn't have it now. He was out thousands of dollars for a hobby that lasted 4 months tops, then complained about never having money.

It'd be one thing if cancelling plans last minute was for a GOOD reason, but in my experience, they haven't been. When I had an ESFJ GF, there was a point where we'd made plans about 3 weeks in advance for something specific. The day before we were supposed to go, she said she wasn't going because she made other plans with her friend, who had already been staying at her house for a week straight at this point. And the plans with her friend consisted of staying at home and watching netflix and drinking....supposedly. My friend who waved me away...we'd planned a few days in advance to go to the gym together, and he was on his little 3 month gym kick. But he waited until I got to the gym to tell me that he wasn't coming because his friend signed into xbox live so he was going to play that instead. Another GF cancelled a movie date I already bought tickets for (opening night), and waited to tell me until I got to her place to pick her up, and her reason was that she wanted to go to her friend's party. But this friend had a party at her place EVERY Friday night during the semester, so it's not like she was missing anything new.

I could go on and on but I don't WANT carpal tunnel so I'll start to wrap it up. Again, not trashing all the ESFJs, and there's a chance all the ones I've knowingly encountered were the unhealthy sort, but since that's all I have to go on so far, it's hard for me to see ESFJs in the same positive light that some others do. Then again, it seems common for INTJs to have bad experiences with ESFJs. I can't even claim to be a healthy INTJ myself. I know I have plenty of my own issues. But that's just my perspective of the few people I've known to be ESFJs.
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
Hi @Steelight

...I'm sure if you walked up to a friend of yours with something to say, and he was talking to his new GF (they had been together less than a week at this point), and he waved you away without a word, and with an angry look on his face as soon as he saw you, you'd probably be upset too. And maybe it's a type thing, but the only thing I tolerate worse than willful ignorance is blatant disrespect.
Generally the waving me off wouldn't bug me - I'd just assume the call was important (or perhaps serious). The angry glare would leave me wondering "what the heck" though. It generally sounds innocent though.

But what made that situation so much worse was that he had JUST gotten with this girl. Like, the MOMENT he had a GF, he suddenly didn't care about anyone that wouldn't let him stick his dick in her. It's one thing to have less time for other people when you're in a relationship. It's another thing to intentionally blow them off.
I remember back in my late teens / early 20s this, unfortunately, did happen with quite a few friends (all different personality types) i.e. as soon as they got their first GF, suddenly they made a lot less time for their other friends. I remember one friend in partiuclar, we only saw him like 3 times one year after he got together with his first GF, who turned out be really bad for him - basically she was incredibly needy and didn't like him hanging out with anyone but her. He made the right decision ending that one, but I digress. Based purely on my experience (and I appreciate my experience isn't the be all and end all), I think it's just coincidence that it's an ESFJ friend who happens to have done this to you. It is frustrating I agree.


Although the question about the motorcycle thing was rhetorical, it was an actual thing that happened with another friend I had, which is why I mentioned it. A few other people we knew, who'd had bikes for a while, were getting more active with them, and he felt like he had to be part of the crowd (or so it appeared from my POV), so he went and bought a bike. Then traded it in for a different one less than 2 months later. He rode these bikes everywhere, but a couple months after he got the second bike, I never saw him on a bike again. I forgot what he said he did with it, but he doesn't have it now. He was out thousands of dollars for a hobby that lasted 4 months tops, then complained about never having money.
Haha. Sounds almost like a cross between an early mid-life crisis and a want to blend in. This one could be a type thing. I don't deny in the past, when I was with a crowd of friends, I wanted to try out things that interested them (granted I wouldn't go as far as a motor bike lol). There are upsides and downsides to this. An upside could be you try it, and genuinely enjoy it (which hopefully means you'll stick to it). The downside is of course you don't enjoy it, force yourself to keep trying it for a bit until you just can't be bothered anymore, and give up, when you could have instead been doing something you did actually enjoy.

With regard to the motor bike situation though, that does sound like a decision that was made too quickly without being properly thought through. The complaining about never having money after that, if I'm honest, would probably get a bit of a metaphorical eye roll from me as well haha.

When I had an ESFJ GF, there was a point where we'd made plans about 3 weeks in advance for something specific. The day before we were supposed to go, she said she wasn't going because she made other plans with her friend, who had already been staying at her house for a week straight at this point. And the plans with her friend consisted of staying at home and watching netflix and drinking....supposedly. My friend who waved me away...we'd planned a few days in advance to go to the gym together, and he was on his little 3 month gym kick. But he waited until I got to the gym to tell me that he wasn't coming because his friend signed into xbox live so he was going to play that instead. Another GF cancelled a movie date I already bought tickets for (opening night), and waited to tell me until I got to her place to pick her up, and her reason was that she wanted to go to her friend's party. But this friend had a party at her place EVERY Friday night during the semester, so it's not like she was missing anything new.
Fair dos - those situations would piss me off too. Sorry, not much more to say on that, other than I can totally understand where you're coming from.

Then again, it seems common for INTJs to have bad experiences with ESFJs.
I see this coming up a lot on PercC and I confess I'm no expert. Similar to you, from the other side of the fence, one of my best friends is an INTJ. I can remember when we first met - I didn't imagine for a second we'd ever become close friends, let alone best friends, at the time. Even the way we spoke to each other was completely different (at the start). And despite a few arguments now and again, it just kinda happened. We do have a few interests in common, and our sense of humour is very similar.

I can't even claim to be a healthy INTJ myself. I know I have plenty of my own issues.
Probably has something to do with being human like the rest of us ;-)
 

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I don't have a lot of ESFJ friends in my life, only past lovers - but I can definitely say that I absolutely love you guys and I would love to have more ESFJ friends ^^
 

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This is coming from an INFP perspective:

What I do like about you guys is that you're generally quite devoted and responsible. INFPs are very devoted but aren't the best at following through every single little thing. I can count on you guys to help me deal with a lot of things in the "real world", at least what many people believe, or somehow accept as the "real world."

You guys are much better at being "people's people" than we are. You're really open and giving. I'm not saying INFPs aren't, we are, but I feel like it takes longer to get to know us and we're a bit more difficult to get to know, or at least we tend to give the impression.

You guys have strong Fe while we have strong Fi. To be honest, sometimes it feels a bit like a double-edged sword. When you're willing to listen and bond, I admit you're more open and less judgmental about other perspectives than we are (trust me, INFPs judge A LOT). However, there are a lot of times where you guys can't seem to quite understand why somebody would want to be different from everyone else, while for an INFP there's a hard time comprehending why somebody would WANT to be like everyone else without question.

You guys can be good listeners that really put yourself in other people's shoes. INFP can also be a very good listener and counselor, but we compare the other people's response to situations and try to see how they fit with our own before deciding how to help them. I admit that gives us a bit of an oversimplified, even narrow perspective at times.

I thank you guys for helping me through the "real world", I thank you guys for being nice and empathetic, but if there's one thing I would gladly lend to you, it's called the art of NGAFAGYOW, and a lot of times I wish you guys had even just 30% of it. Don't be afraid to stand out in your beliefs, your actions. Don't be unnecessarily tied to social norms. Follow your heart, your spirit, enjoy the walk that is life, and trust me, good things reward those with courage.
 

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Not Giving An F and Going Your Own Way, lol. ^^

And thanks for the welcome. :))

Another thing about NF types, especially an Fi-dominant like the INFP, is that we aren't the best at expressing things using words. For example, I can be better at expressing myself through writing or sometimes when I'm feeling inspired, art (though I don't consider myself artistically gifted). I sometimes speak using metaphors / parables instead of cutting to the chase, and I think it might be a bit challenging for an S type to get me until they use leading questions to get me to reveal what I'm really trying to say. A little frustrating because I wish you'd just "get" me even though I do appreciate the importance and benefits of expressing thoughts and feelings more verbally and explicitly.
 

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One of my best friends in the world is an ESFJ. She's the only friend I've ever had that actually *really* cares about how I'm doing emotionally, mentally, physically, and spiritually. She has a heart for others that is inspiring to me and she pushes me out of my comfort zone, which is good for this INFP XD. I feel like I've become a better, more vulnerable and kindhearted person because of our friendship.

The only things that are kind of annoying are that she tends to over-commit herself and then stresses out about everything she has to do. She can also be really dramatic.
 

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Perhaps I'm over thinking this, but is there not a real risk these 'traits' can come into direct conflict with each other?
I know this post is over a year old but I thought you raised interesting points here. I agree with you that there is a risk these traits can come into conflict.

Kindness and inclusivity can even conflict with one another. Regarding inclusivity, I encountered a situation once in a social group where the whole group was pretty much getting along...except for one guy, who would often show up drunk and insult other members, even using racial slurs. This is not conducive to inclusivity. But on the other hand, some members of the group wanted to include the guy and let him behave like this towards other members of the group. So this is an edge case where inclusivity can come into conflict with itself-- but thankfully, this is an unusual situation, at least in my experience.

Regarding being socially conscious, which was also mentioned in the quotes, I interpret "socially conscious" to mean "aware of the thoughts and feelings of others". I think that's a skillset, and the skillset can be applied positively when e.g. managing a social group and knowing what the thoughts/feelings of members of the group are... or it can be applied in a more neurotic or unhealthy way, where I've seen people (not just ESFJs) obsess over others are/might be thinking about them to the point where it becomes almost self-consciousness and not only social consciousness. In the extreme, they can't make any of their own decisions without becoming overly concerned with what others might think. So I agree with the description that it can be a strength or a weakness and I also think this is true for many traits across all types. Thankfully, in most healthy people, it's probably a strength more so than a weakness.

And lol, there was one more trait mentioned but I can't remember what it was. :crazy:
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
Kindness and inclusivity can even conflict with one another. Regarding inclusivity, I encountered a situation once in a social group where the whole group was pretty much getting along...except for one guy, who would often show up drunk and insult other members, even using racial slurs. This is not conducive to inclusivity. But on the other hand, some members of the group wanted to include the guy and let him behave like this towards other members of the group. So this is an edge case where inclusivity can come into conflict with itself-- but thankfully, this is an unusual situation, at least in my experience.
That is actually a very fair point. Sometimes the desire to be inclusive isn't always what's best.

I have seen this situation before go the other way however. Within my close circle of friends, every year we used to hire a log cabin and go away together for a week.

One year, one of our other friends who use to be in the circle, but had moved away, was back home for a long spell and me and my partner thought he should be invited to our next trip. When we suggested this to the group, one of our other friends in the circle (the INFJ of the group if that matters) got all annoyed about it saying they wouldn't go if this guy went. This ended turning into a heated argument with us ultimately pandering (I'm ashamed to admit) to this friend, and unfortunately we, as a group, didn't invite this other friend along. The reason for not wanting to invite him was fairly lame too.

Six months later, this other friend ended up saying he felt like we didn't include him in things or show any interest in him anymore and, unfortunately, broke away from us completely. I always wonder to this day if this could have been avoided.


Regarding being socially conscious, which was also mentioned in the quotes, I interpret "socially conscious" to mean "aware of the thoughts and feelings of others". I think that's a skillset, and the skillset can be applied positively when e.g. managing a social group and knowing what the thoughts/feelings of members of the group are... or it can be applied in a more neurotic or unhealthy way, where I've seen people (not just ESFJs) obsess over others are/might be thinking about them to the point where it becomes almost self-consciousness and not only social consciousness. In the extreme, they can't make any of their own decisions without becoming overly concerned with what others might think. So I agree with the description that it can be a strength or a weakness and I also think this is true for many traits across all types. Thankfully, in most healthy people, it's probably a strength more so than a weakness.
I think this a great skillset to have in general. In the work place, IMO, it could almost be compulsory for a good manager. Where I think this can become particularly unhealthy is if you find yourself in a position of 'wanting to please all' but knowing you can't, and, as you describe, becoming unable to make a decision on your own.
 

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That is actually a very fair point. Sometimes the desire to be inclusive isn't always what's best.

I have seen this situation before go the other way however. Within my close circle of friends, every year we used to hire a log cabin and go away together for a week.

One year, one of our other friends who use to be in the circle, but had moved away, was back home for a long spell and me and my partner thought he should be invited to our next trip. When we suggested this to the group, one of our other friends in the circle (the INFJ of the group if that matters) got all annoyed about it saying they wouldn't go if this guy went. This ended turning into a heated argument with us ultimately pandering (I'm ashamed to admit) to this friend, and unfortunately we, as a group, didn't invite this other friend along. The reason for not wanting to invite him was fairly lame too.

Six months later, this other friend ended up saying he felt like we didn't include him in things or show any interest in him anymore and, unfortunately, broke away from us completely. I always wonder to this day if this could have been avoided.




I think this a great skillset to have in general. In the work place, IMO, it would almost be compulsory for a good good manager. Where I think this can become particularly unhealthy is if you find yourself in a position of 'wanting to please all' but knowing you can't, and, as you describe, become unable to make a decision on your own.
Yeah, basically, inclusivity becomes a challenge when people with conflicting perspectives or needs/wants ask (or expect) to be included.

Good point about the managers/workplace too. I agree it's a good skillset for managers to have. But yes, it should be coupled with a strong definition of scope and understanding of what one's primary tasks/responsibilities are, otherwise it can turn into "people pleasing" which isn't a good situation at work.
 

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From my experience they are fun, hardworking, sincere, dependable, family oriented, organize, their handwriting is neat and beautiful, put effort to look good, friendly, cheerful, sporty, on time, helpful, and religious (?). But sometimes they are driving me mad because they are clingy, sensitive, a little bit possessive, sometimes uncreative, couldn't decide what's best for them, couldn't think out of the box, they hate books, and helpless romantic.

But overall they are fun and good looking 🙂
 
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