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Mrawr. I'm sorry... I wondered, but I didn't want to pry. I'm sending good, peaceful vibes your way, along with a virtual plate of the crappy pasta I'm cooking. Really though, I understand and empathize with your family situation... I've been typing and re-typing this reply over and over for the last.. however long its been... but all I want to do is just give you a hug haha my father's side of the family is like that, and even though I'm an NT, I can't stand them because they're such an extreme and unhealthy bunch. Not that I'm perfect, but goodness gracious those goons...
Thanks for the vibes, I am feeling them. Another thing they keep attacking me with, "Oh shes so rebellious" which my grandmother will not shut up about. Then there was the argument about how violent a movie was, and how I got scolded/commented on how "I dont leave things alone" and such. Like my opinions are not welcomed or attained well, or im a goddamn disease to these people. And they wonder why I dont like being around them.
 
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Thanks for the vibes, I am feeling them. Another thing they keep attacking me with, "Oh shes so rebellious" which my grandmother will not shut up about. Then there was the argument about how violent a movie was, and how I got scolded/commented on how "I dont leave things alone" and such. Like my opinions are not welcomed or attained well, or im a goddamn disease to these people. And they wonder why I dont like being around them.
Holy crap hahaha this is incredible. My dad's family has said so many of those things to my sister, plus some. She's younger than me and an INFP too. Whenever we go to family functions, it inevitably ends up with me defending all of her decisions and ideas that they pick to pieces... she dropped out of college after two weeks because it really just wasn't for her and since then has neeever been able to live that down with them. Its awful.
 

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Holy crap hahaha this is incredible. My dad's family has said so many of those things to my sister, plus some. She's younger than me and an INFP too. Whenever we go to family functions, it inevitably ends up with me defending all of her decisions and ideas that they pick to pieces... she dropped out of college after two weeks because it really just wasn't for her and since then has neeever been able to live that down with them. Its awful.
I would totally defend you sister with my life........... COllege is just a jump start to leading your own life. She can always do vocational school or something else, its her choice. Wth is wrong with our families?!?!?
 
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I would totally defend you sister with my life........... COllege is just a jump start to leading your own life. She can always do vocational school or something else, its her choice.
Yeah, exactly. She's working as a pharmacy tech right now, and I think they're going to end up paying for her college, so she actually won in the end mwahaha

Wth is wrong with our families?!?!?
The sun will probably go out before I have time to finish that list hahahaha that being said, the more I learn about how I interact with people, the more profusely I want to thank my mother and sister for putting up with my harsh, nutty ass. I was talking with my sister about that when I went home for Christmas, and she was like yeah gurrrl... I'm glad you're calming down now because sometimes I just wanted to murder you in your sleep when we were younger
 

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Yeah, exactly. She's working as a pharmacy tech right now, and I think they're going to end up paying for her college, so she actually won in the end mwahaha



The sun will probably go out before I have time to finish that list hahahaha that being said, the more I learn about how I interact with people, the more profusely I want to thank my mother and sister for putting up with my harsh, nutty ass. I was talking with my sister about that when I went home for Christmas, and she was like yeah gurrrl... I'm glad you're calming down now because sometimes I just wanted to murder you in your sleep when we were younger
PROPS to your mom and sister!

Lol, I tell my mom the same thing.
 

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I'm really not trying to rip on INFPs with this, I feel like I need to maybe state that, judging by the reactions of some other people. I'm not. I just don't understand, and I'm trying to gain understanding.


Yeah, you're right. I could have worded this better, I sound like a monster in this post. Its not like I... try to fix his thinking? I don't know how to explain it. I love the way he thinks, its beautiful and weird and unpredictable, which are all things I need. But its also weird and unpredictable, which is hard for me to deal with sometimes, which causes me inherent frustration, which is a personal problem and not at all related to him. So I guess ultimately what I need to do is just relax. Or something.
Thank you for being so amazing here! It did sound bad (to me), but I know that you didn't mean it to, which is why I really wanted to give you my honest response. I have heard identical phrasing (and more) from my INTJ, and honestly, he is surprised later-- it's like you said with the tunnel vision, it's almost like he goes into these blackout rages where he's a completely different person and half the time he doesn't even remember what he said later. I just want to skip that middle part where I feel like roadkill but he still feels expressed and heard and validated.


I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to set you off and I don't mean to be insensitive, I promise I don't. I get tunnel vision when I'm "solving" things, its one of thousands of weak points I have.
Please, don't apologize, there is nothing to apologize for. You were being honest and speaking your truth from your anger, which is way helpful and to be applauded! How can we begin to sort anything out until we figure out what it is in the first place? I was just trying to speak my own opinion in response to give you an idea of how an INFP feels about such phrasing; you may not mean to insult someone as a whole or their intelligence, but that's exactly what happens.


Its not like I think he's stupid, he's so smart it blows me away sometimes. What I mean by "thoughtless" is that usually it'll be something that I've expressly told him hurts me or makes me uncomfortable. For example, I don't like it when he rips on my religion, or the religions of other people, so I calmly told him that the first time he did it and he said he wouldn't do that anymore... and then two weeks later we're walking on campus and we'll see one of the street preachers that frequent our campus and he just starts saying all of these horrible things about religion and such. When I have to tell someone something multiple times, especially an admittance of something that hurts me.. yeah, I'll admit it, I attack them. And its a weak point for me, so you're right, I need to practice gentle patience and strive for understanding rather than vengeance. I'm not perfect, nor will I ever be.
Well, in all fairness, he does need to learn to avoid those things that hurt you. Here's my main question: Have you ever actually said "This hurts me?" If so, maybe repeat it, or think about the ratio that you communicate this in a vulnerable way vs. an angry, on the offensive way. In my experience, an INTJ's natural inclination towards expressing "I'm hurt right now" looks like they are tracing back the roots of every bad thing I have ever THOUGHT about doing and using it all to rationalize why I'm a terrible person and this will never work-- usually blindsiding me completely out of the blue. Whereas if we could just begin with "This hurt me", we would save so much time and energy and wounding.

Which brings me to the main relationship problem in this dynamic IMHO: INFP's are smart and amazing in their own way. What we are not good at is holding every detail and fact we know in our brains all at one time. Or, when something happens, linking it to a bunch of facts and having that all in our brains. We are of the moment and random and following the current passion, forsaking all else. Or just deep into dreamland, notsomuch reality. So sometimes that means we forget something that might be vitally important to you. You, on the other hand, are freakishly amazing at the facts in the head at all times business. In fact, that's exactly how you show people you care about them, is by having a Rolodex at the ready for any situation that they would need your perfect solution, and being sure to never ever ever bring up a certain list of things that are hurtful in an insensitive way. So much so, that you can't fathom someone as smart as us being that 'forgetful'. In fact when we say it, it just sounds like a ruse. We're smart, right? So the only possible explanation must be that we just don't care. (You tell me if that's true or not-- this is all just my conjecture.)

So, you see the dilemma. The INFP is actually, totally clueless that you have jumped to all these conclusions and is still thinking about their righteous indignation about religion. All of a sudden they are startled out of mid-sentence to notice that their sunny day with birds chirping has turned into a gloomy tornado. They cautiously ask what's wrong, getting ready to be defensive. They are told they don't love you, have every sore spot intentionally socked in the face and then are bluntly given the message they are not needed or wanted. None of this translates into "You said something thoughtless that I have told you before is not ok with me and it really hurt my feelings and made me feel like you don't care about me enough to remember it." It just translates into: "I hate you."

So, the bottom line to me is, every INFP needs to learn better how and what to remember about their INTJ. Buuuut, every INTJ needs to realize that it's not a lack of caring, it's a difference in strengths. Not everyone can do what you do. Really. No joke, no-one is trying to shuck 'n jive here. You are kind of extraordinary in this regard. So maybe try to remember that before you jump to conclusions-- at some point you have to believe that your person has good intentions and trust them when things come up that are unclear and precarious-- and just give them the benefit of the doubt. And you will get sooo much more back from an INFP when you say "I'm hurt" rather than "You are a miserable human being who doesn't love me and never will."

Also, when people are trying, you have to allow them to mess up sometimes. I know that you like results and proof and 'talk is cheap' in your book; but it's not that way for us. How we give and care is usually intangible; you couldn't prove it by scientific theory, but it is real nonetheless. So as we are trying to learn your love language, have patience; it's not our native tongue. Remember the intentions; they are what matter more than performance, and if you show an INFP that they will relax. I know this is hard for you, and I promise I'm not asking for a get out of jail free card; this really is what we need, even if it's scary for you.


Sorry for the (hopefully at least very slightly amusing??) exaggeration throughout.... I'm trying to be a little tongue in cheek here, hopefully everyone takes it the right way! Really not trying to hate on INTJ's, y'all know I love 'em.


Thank you so much for responding to this so systematically and patiently. I feel awful that I may have offended some of you with this whole problem-soupy-mess thing, I really and truly didn't mean anything negative by this. My world is just... upside down with this break up, and I'm floundering.
I completely understand, and I am so very sorry, I feel your devastation. I just wanted to say, you've been really brave to put this all out there, open for scrutiny and all among INFP's, and I am so very glad. You've helped me put things in my own relationship in a better frame of reference, and I have loved the opportunity to get some of the misunderstandings between our types ironed out, hopefully to a better mutual understanding.
 

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Thank you for being so amazing here! It did sound bad (to me), but I know that you didn't mean it to, which is why I really wanted to give you my honest response. I have heard identical phrasing (and more) from my INTJ, and honestly, he is surprised later-- it's like you said with the tunnel vision, it's almost like he goes into these blackout rages where he's a completely different person and half the time he doesn't even remember what he said later. I just want to skip that middle part where I feel like roadkill but he still feels expressed and heard and validated.
Holy hell, I am so... sooo guilty of this. Especially when I'm irrationally angry because I'm stressed and my Se starts calling the shots instead of my Ni. Its like this switch flips and my alter ego comes out to play... and she's not someone you want to meet. Thank god my INFP has deciphered this about me, else I don't think we'd even be on friendly terms at this point. We were talking about that just the other night actually... He said he knew that it wasn't me talking when that happened and that it was a really difficult thing to control, so he never really held that against me. That being said, I now do really try to diffuse the bomb before the switch flips so we can both feel at least marginally validated. I don't always catch it, but I try.

Its nice to see you talk about your INTJ, it gives me a glimmer of hope and keeps me from feeling so alone haha the only other INTJ I've ever met is a dear friend, but lives around 1500 miles away from me.

Well, in all fairness, he does need to learn to avoid those things that hurt you. Here's my main question: Have you ever actually said "This hurts me?" If so, maybe repeat it, or think about the ratio that you communicate this in a vulnerable way vs. an angry, on the offensive way. In my experience, an INTJ's natural inclination towards expressing "I'm hurt right now" looks like they are tracing back the roots of every bad thing I have ever THOUGHT about doing and using it all to rationalize why I'm a terrible person and this will never work-- usually blindsiding me completely out of the blue. Whereas if we could just begin with "This hurt me", we would save so much time and energy and wounding.
Guh. Yes. Another one, out of the ballpark. No one has ever really said it to me like this before, but this is completely correct. I have an incredibly hard time being direct when it comes to admitting my feelings/vulnerabilities, so it never really occurred to me before to just say it. I feel like such an idiot, that some of these things have to be explained to me hahaha I totally do that whole "tracing" thing, not just to him, but to pretty much everyone that hurts me in some way.


Which brings me to the main relationship problem in this dynamic IMHO: INFP's are smart and amazing in their own way. What we are not good at is holding every detail and fact we know in our brains all at one time. Or, when something happens, linking it to a bunch of facts and having that all in our brains. We are of the moment and random and following the current passion, forsaking all else. Or just deep into dreamland, notsomuch reality. So sometimes that means we forget something that might be vitally important to you. You, on the other hand, are freakishly amazing at the facts in the head at all times business. In fact, that's exactly how you show people you care about them, is by having a Rolodex at the ready for any situation that they would need your perfect solution, and being sure to never ever ever bring up a certain list of things that are hurtful in an insensitive way. So much so, that you can't fathom someone as smart as us being that 'forgetful'. In fact when we say it, it just sounds like a ruse. We're smart, right? So the only possible explanation must be that we just don't care. (You tell me if that's true or not-- this is all just my conjecture.)
Seriously, you've cut right to the heart of the matter and I freaking love you for it. That feeling of "he forgot so he doesn't care" is one of my biggest issues in this relationship. Its what I cut him to pieces with, because his forgetfulness cuts me to pieces, and I've always known that this was completely psychotic but its like a knee-jerk reaction... its engrained, and I need to somehow shut it off. This is another really stupid, oblivious question, but where else can I look besides intentions to find an INFP's love if its not in their ability to remember? I have this issue with my mother and sister as well, both INFPs and the most graciously patient women that have ever had the task of knowing me hahaha

I'm really happy that I found you and that you're taking me by the hand, so to speak, with all of this. Its perfect and its really giving me the kind of catharsis with this situation that I've craved. I'm absolutely horrible with open-ended situations, and I know that he is usually alright with things not necessarily having an immediate resolution, so instead of pushing him on that point this conversation is giving me more of the resolution that I've needed.
 

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I'm really happy that I found you and that you're taking me by the hand, so to speak, with all of this. Its perfect and its really giving me the kind of catharsis with this situation that I've craved. I'm absolutely horrible with open-ended situations, and I know that he is usually alright with things not necessarily having an immediate resolution, so instead of pushing him on that point this conversation is giving me more of the resolution that I've needed.
((Hugs)) So much INFP love for you right now. I want answers, too. I want to make things better too, so all of us talking about stuff and looking for solutions helps me immensely as well.

...heh, this is kind of embarrassing, but as far as how to look for the INFP love signs.... I am completely drawing a blank. I will have to think on that and get back with you.
 

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Holy hell, I am so... sooo guilty of this. Especially when I'm irrationally angry because I'm stressed and my Se starts calling the shots instead of my Ni. Its like this switch flips and my alter ego comes out to play... and she's not someone you want to meet. Thank god my INFP has deciphered this about me, else I don't think we'd even be on friendly terms at this point. We were talking about that just the other night actually... He said he knew that it wasn't me talking when that happened and that it was a really difficult thing to control, so he never really held that against me. That being said, I now do really try to diffuse the bomb before the switch flips so we can both feel at least marginally validated. I don't always catch it, but I try.
I can't believe I'm going to say this on an INFP forum, but I'm going to give it a go.

Hi Jane, *hugs* I'm so sorry for you. I feel your pain. I've been there with several woman friends who I would type as INFx. With me, friendship is a done deal, bad or good, but then the initial intensity goes away, or bursts, or something, and I leap in to fix it tell them how I feel and what should happen (in a roundabout way) and boy does it go wrong...

Some of this is yours to fix...it can be done, it's part of the inner journey if you like, you can do it I think. Let's talk about INTJ. We rationalise and when we are small we get to find out that nasty emotions from our parents and elders go away if we learn to do it better next time, do what they want. We are quite good at that, being rememberers and so we learn that game, learn that Thinkers sorry which actually does mean 'I will change it next time'. When we grow up I think certainly I expected to be able to impose that expectation on the people around me. And I became that totally classic Elephants never forget type...so I'd recall who didn't like broccoli, who had black coffee, who liked a particular magazine...elephants were nothing on me! And the idea of love as service, as acts of kindness, of personal remembrances, of recalling who did and didn't like what...I was a walking talking filing cabinet of every preference anyone else had ever expressed to me, and I guess inside I wanted people to notice that I was remembering, and thank me, and do it back to me. At that time I had no idea about MBTI and I thought everyone ticked the same inside...

So, best friend type friendship with a Feeler rolls round by and by, and my method just doesn't work. It's not immaturity since we're both in our thirties by then, but she just doesn't get it, she can't do it, she tries but it just doesn't work. And it drove me absolutely nuts, because for me doing that was by then a no brainer easy peasy. And also so hugely linked into how I gave and expected love to come back. I had love wrong, I think now, but it was all so interlinked I felt she hated me, was selfish, didn't care enough to put me first in these little things. I remember blowing up at her completely one time, the anger which flamed through me seemed so right, it seemed to clean me out inside, I felt better afterwards, way better, but she was devastated. Oddly enough I'd actually thought that showing her that anger was a good plan, show her how deeply I felt, reveal my inner self, vulnerability, honesty, passion...how wrong I was. She didn't see it that way, it was all about how she'd been hurt by what I'd said...it felt like the world continued to spin around her and her feelings. Eventually it all fell to pieces because I stopped giving, stopped taking her stuff and not getting anything back in my own language...so I can kind of feel your pain a bit.

What I've learnt since is that I let the gap get too big, Nowadays I try to drip feed that glimmer of anger out in day to day life, maybe as a joke or to a third party, try to express it or pray about it or say it to someone else in my day to day life. Not let it build up. Which brings me to point number two. We INTJs live a life of spotting patterns. This is great for science and IQ tests, less good with people. For us it's like the seventeenth time she forgot to put sugar in my tea, the ninth day in a row that the bus was late, we are recording stuff that other people literally are not aware of, and when we blow up it's like all those seventeen occasions merge into one huge, seventeen times as big, chunk of anger...

Then also INTJs are not afraid of confrontation...the J drives to resolution and so 'giving it some time' is a complete nightmare. An hour or two is an eternity even if I know that what she needs is a fortnight or longer. And it's so hard to see our own part in all this. One thing I do is write down everything I feel as a way of processing it and getting it out of my system. Or write a letter asking for advice and then read it back like it's someone else asking you, that's good for seeing what is actually going on.


Its nice to see you talk about your INTJ, it gives me a glimmer of hope and keeps me from feeling so alone haha the only other INTJ I've ever met is a dear friend, but lives around 1500 miles away from me.
There are plenty of us here. PM me if you like.

Guh. Yes. Another one, out of the ballpark. No one has ever really said it to me like this before, but this is completely correct. I have an incredibly hard time being direct when it comes to admitting my feelings/vulnerabilities, so it never really occurred to me before to just say it. I feel like such an idiot, that some of these things have to be explained to me hahaha I totally do that whole "tracing" thing, not just to him, but to pretty much everyone that hurts me in some way.

Seriously, you've cut right to the heart of the matter and I freaking love you for it. That feeling of "he forgot so he doesn't care" is one of my biggest issues in this relationship. Its what I cut him to pieces with, because his forgetfulness cuts me to pieces, and I've always known that this was completely psychotic but its like a knee-jerk reaction... its engrained, and I need to somehow shut it off. This is another really stupid, oblivious question, but where else can I look besides intentions to find an INFP's love if its not in their ability to remember? I have this issue with my mother and sister as well, both INFPs and the most graciously patient women that have ever had the task of knowing me hahaha

I'm really happy that I found you and that you're taking me by the hand, so to speak, with all of this. Its perfect and its really giving me the kind of catharsis with this situation that I've craved. I'm absolutely horrible with open-ended situations, and I know that he is usually alright with things not necessarily having an immediate resolution, so instead of pushing him on that point this conversation is giving me more of the resolution that I've needed.
Try reading Jack Pransky's book Somebody should have told us, simple truths for living well. It's not very long and has some great advice.
 

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Wth? Why?
Well, probably because bullying releases dopamine in the brain and dopamine feels good.

Now, why we have a pleasurable neurotransmitter that gets released by harming another human..... that is on a higher authority.
:/

Anyway, don't let them get you down. You are a little ray of sunshine so keep shining :)
 

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Well, probably because bullying releases dopamine in the brain and dopamine feels good.

Now, why we have a pleasurable neurotransmitter that gets released by harming another human..... that is on a higher authority.
:/

Anyway, don't let them get you down. You are a little ray of sunshine so keep shining :)
Im about to intensify my rays to watch them burn in agony.......*Evil smile* hahahahahahaha!!!!!
 
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Well, probably because bullying releases dopamine in the brain and dopamine feels good.

Now, why we have a pleasurable neurotransmitter that gets released by harming another human..... that is on a higher authority.
:/

Anyway, don't let them get you down. You are a little ray of sunshine so keep shining :)
Or, maybe enough to give them cancer. *shrugs*
 
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@MollyGoRound. i just love the way that you channel us. serious, you're probably going to heaven for the way that you just made my day:laughing:

and being sure to never ever ever bring up a certain list of things that are hurtful in an insensitive way.
this more than anything else. i do think there's a tendency to dismiss all the stuff we don't say or do because we actually do have enormous consideration for other people's feelings - some of us. and we pay microscopic attention to that; at least some of us do. but just as you guys don't get credit for being smart, we don't get it for having manners.

So much so, that you can't fathom someone as smart as us being that 'forgetful'. In fact when we say it, it just sounds like a ruse.
i think my reflex to it is that it's unfair. anyone who knows anything about infps as a type is already standing on a pretty narrow ledge, imo. we're toting the whole big mythology of care and attention to the infp's own exquisitely fine-tuned sense of manners, and living at least partly under the intimidation of 'don't ever say anything to offend me or i'll re-judge you from the top down and never, ever quite see you the same way again'. and then 'you' casually say or do something just as off-putting/obnoxious to me, and it seems like the rest of the world isn't even allowed to object.

We're smart, right? So the only possible explanation must be that we just don't care. (You tell me if that's true or not-- this is all just my conjecture.)
gmnnn . . . i think it tells me that the other person doesn't take me seriously. i know you guys care - it's what you do, practically :tongue: but being 'cared' about by someone who doesn't appear to take me seriously is a strange, queasy kind of contradiction to me. it's worth something a bit less than 'not much'.


I just want to skip that middle part where I feel like roadkill but he still feels expressed and heard and validated.
lol. ouch. i can just picture it. i have had terrible trouble with my female infp friend, around exactly this. i so wasn't ready for it. i'd known her for two years and i'd thought she liked my ability to get right to the root of something and sum it up in a single package. so i'd sincerely assumed that telling her what had been on my mind would relieve her as much as it did me and 'explain everything' so that at last we'd be able to talk. in practice it sent her over the top and under the bed and round the bend, all in one move. i can't tell you how shaken i was, and it did kill my hope. it seemed like okay - if i want this friendship to survive at all, i'm just going to have to leave the things that matter the most lying out there in the no-man's-land no-one's allowed to go to. we did restore peace, but the truth is it's a far more shallow and trivial friendship than it used to be. certainly something that would have killed a relationship, if that's what we'd been involved in.

i'm still not sure how i feel about you holding still for someone else in a 'blackout' rage. i'm pretty sure i don't think those are okay under any conditions at all. but i did learn enough to realise what a big thing this is, that you're prepared to do it at all. i gained an understanding about my friend's limitations that way which made me understand her better, sure. but i trust her much less.

an INTJ's natural inclination towards expressing "I'm hurt right now" looks like they are tracing back the roots of every bad thing I have ever THOUGHT about doing and using it all to rationalize why I'm a terrible person and this will never work
hee. sigh. it's that long-term, permanent memory issue again. the system-thinker problem. it does sound like that, but the sad thing is: when i'm trying to analyse and express the entire systemic structure of 'a problem' that way, 'you suck and this is never going to work' is the very last thing in my mind. it's really 'you rock so much and i hate it so much that how i feel about this is coming between me and the way that i feel about you - so can i describe the problem in all its completely not-about-you-to-me structure to you, and hope maybe you'll see what i mean and we can make this whole thing go away?' i can't speak for anyone else in my type group of course, but it's actually really hard for me to do that.

not saying that's how it's your job to interpret it though. :tongue: but it is a terrible struggle figuring out how to cross-interpret - for real. not just a matter of self-discipline or self-control or not being all self-indulgent about my feelings. a genuine practical, pragmatic problem of 'how do i make clear that it's the structure that's bothering me, not just this one act - and yet somehow magically prevent this infp person from seeing the structure as meaning themselves?'

not good at is holding every detail and fact we know in our brains all at one time.
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: gummi bears.

You are kind of extraordinary in this regard.
i had a whole big emo-outburst typed up right here . . . but it evaporated.
 

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Thinkers seem to get a kick out of being sadistic to feelers sometimes. I'm sorry :(
What on earth? No, never. It's lack of understanding of what drives someone who is completely different... IMO anyway.

I can and have made lots of blunders, but never intentionally, no. Heartbroken, yes. Don't make generalisations. Some people are unkind, regardless of their type.
 
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I am great, thanks dearest!! That is so incredibly sweet and makes me so happy. It's really hard for me to go out on a limb and open up my heart to speak my truth, I usually just feel incredibly self-conscious but choose to try to be brave for the better good of myself and hopefully others, too. See, INTJ compliments are the BEST because you know they really mean it. :)
*goes all shy* You mean there are people out there who DON'T mean everything that they say? *goes all bashful, blushes, reduces to silent jelly like state of enormous happiness for huge amount of time*
 

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I've just realized that I'm extremely good at making people feel better about themselves. Is this common for INFPs?

... am I an ENFJ? What is going on, lol?
 
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