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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a spin off from another thread that I would rather not derail...

He who shall remain nameless unless otherwise permitted said:
Given the fact that I'm 30 years old with an Associate's Degree in graphic design, statistics say I should be making $40k a year. I'm currently making around $14k a year. I can't remember the last time I woke up in the morning and felt glad to be alive. And that pisses me off. It pisses me off because I tried to do everything right my whole life. Finished school. Finished college. Got a degree. Never did drugs. Never got anyone pregnant. Can't claim that I helped my landlady carry out her garbage, but basically I followed all the rules. Very few traffic violations and the last one was years ago and has been off my record for years. In other words, I did all the things I was supposed to do and refrained from doing the things I'm not supposed to do. So why do the powers that be expect me to settle for the lowest common denominator?

If there's anything I've learned from existence (it doesn't even deserve to be called "life"), it's that nihilism reigns supreme and no one is rewarded for anything despite any amount of effort. A person can kill themself more and more every day at work for an insultingly low wage and they're still expected to sacrifice evermore.

Hope is a lie.
We're already dead.
This has been a big frustration for me too in the past few months. I've been looking for an internship position and took significantly longer than my counterparts to find one. Lesson: I kick ass too much.

In short, I've been underselling myself to myself. I was applying for jobs that I was perfectly qualified for and were relevant enough to my field of study to work out but... someone who I thought was less qualified than myself ALWAYS ended up with the offer. This continued for a few months and was the cause for a lot of frustration. I kept trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. My resume is immaculate, I have straight As, have the largest skill set in the class, have the most programming experience in the class, definitely have the most business orientation, and I wear a fancy Italian suit to interviews. Why the hell were all these people calling me back and saying nice things if they didn't want to hire me? Why do the HR interviews go so much better than the technical ones? I'm a really technically gifted guy while my charisma is generally in lacking.

I didn't want to admit it to myself because it does come off as arrogant which I didn't want to set myself up for; but I was over qualified for these jobs. It didn't sink in until I gave up, put myself back into musician gear, and interviewed for a webdeveloper position at a magazine. When they asked what the hell I was doing there, I told them I loved the neighbourhood and just wanted my hours for my internship. Bang. They offered me the position the next day. My musical background helped culture wise but I don't think they would have taken me if I made up some BS about challenging myself. This job has some tricks to it but for me it's more tedious than mentally challenging. I'm working there now for the summer but that job is just for fun.

After coming to terms with what I am, I put on a suit and applied to the banks. I basically had my choice. I'm starting in September at an internship with one of the biggest banks in the country doing what most of my counterparts in my program would kill for right now. I'm managing security compliance on a multi-national scale. S***.

I know how graphic artists are. Most of them are full of s***. Even the good ones. How someone with the cognitive preferences of an INTJ would want to do graphics is understandable. If you get into the science behind it, it's pretty rich. I had to understand a bit of it when studying interface design... but it's not hard stuff for a typical INTJ.

Dude, no insult to graphic artists but you're probably overqualified for what you're gunning for. Your resume ways one thing but the interviews probably say you could do more and probably scare the s*** out of the person that's supposed to be your manager. At one of the last jobs I had, my manager was very qualified on paper and I was just a temp; the VP saw my work though and was trying to get me to replace my manager. I had to make it clear I was only there as a temp.

Anyway, enough rambling.
 

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I see it differently. I can see the OP's remarks indicate a problem with getting a rewarding job. But, that problem is just a byproduct of the real issue, which is in my opinion a lack of self-respect and is thus an emotional problem. Fix that first, the rest will fix itself. I do wholeheartedly agree though with your suggestion that the OP get a different job. That could certainly help with the root cause.
 
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You are correct; it can often be difficult to get rewarded if you undersell yourself. You know when you are selling yourself appropriately when you meet resistance. When they offer you a change in circumstances demand a raise. You will find that as INTJs we know what we have done and can justify the value we add to business. Don't be afraid to expect your due as others do or you will quickly find yourself marginalised. However as we are rarely cogenial, our natural confidence, skills and qualifications will make us look arrogant rather than competent.
 

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This is a spin off from another thread that I would rather not derail...



This has been a big frustration for me too in the past few months. I've been looking for an internship position and took significantly longer than my counterparts to find one. Lesson: I kick ass too much.

In short, I've been underselling myself to myself. I was applying for jobs that I was perfectly qualified for and were relevant enough to my field of study to work out but... someone who I thought was less qualified than myself ALWAYS ended up with the offer. This continued for a few months and was the cause for a lot of frustration. I kept trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. My resume is immaculate, I have straight As, have the largest skill set in the class, have the most programming experience in the class, definitely have the most business orientation, and I wear a fancy Italian suit to interviews. Why the hell were all these people calling me back and saying nice things if they didn't want to hire me? Why do the HR interviews go so much better than the technical ones? I'm a really technically gifted guy while my charisma is generally in lacking.

I didn't want to admit it to myself because it does come off as arrogant which I didn't want to set myself up for; but I was over qualified for these jobs. It didn't sink in until I gave up, put myself back into musician gear, and interviewed for a webdeveloper position at a magazine. When they asked what the hell I was doing there, I told them I loved the neighbourhood and just wanted my hours for my internship. Bang. They offered me the position the next day. My musical background helped culture wise but I don't think they would have taken me if I made up some BS about challenging myself. This job has some tricks to it but for me it's more tedious than mentally challenging. I'm working there now for the summer but that job is just for fun.

After coming to terms with what I am, I put on a suit and applied to the banks. I basically had my choice. I'm starting in September at an internship with one of the biggest banks in the country doing what most of my counterparts in my program would kill for right now. I'm managing security compliance on a multi-national scale. S***.

I know how graphic artists are. Most of them are full of s***. Even the good ones. How someone with the cognitive preferences of an INTJ would want to do graphics is understandable. If you get into the science behind it, it's pretty rich. I had to understand a bit of it when studying interface design... but it's not hard stuff for a typical INTJ.

Dude, no insult to graphic artists but you're probably overqualified for what you're gunning for. Your resume ways one thing but the interviews probably say you could do more and probably scare the s*** out of the person that's supposed to be your manager. At one of the last jobs I had, my manager was very qualified on paper and I was just a temp; the VP saw my work though and was trying to get me to replace my manager. I had to make it clear I was only there as a temp.

Anyway, enough rambling.
OFF TOPIC:

Don't get me wrong, I'm just curious here. So if anything I say comes out sounding like an attack, it's likely to just be my inability to express myself properly.

I don't think I understand the bolded part. Full of s***? As in... what kind of s***?

From what I've experienced graphic artists are very often marginalized by those in careers that appear to be more intellectually demanding, because graphic artists work on things that look to most people like something 5 year-old children should be doing: playing around with some shapes and colors to make things 'pretty' like it's something anyone can do or something anyone can just pull out of their a** requiring no time or effort and without prior knowledge. Or better yet, the software does it all!

I'm interested in hearing your side. All my life I've mostly been faced with software engineers who are full of themselves and look down on graphics like they're just plain stupid and should cease to exist because they distract from functionality, putting codes above because they involve some more directly observable maths and physics and some +><={}// symbols that make them feel smart. (No offense to system engineers, I <3 the ones with their ego in check)

So... I don't know how, from your perspective, graphic artists are the ones full of s***...? If you decide to take the time to explain, I'll be grateful. Just looking for some perspective...
 

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...

I know who wrote those words.

I've been there, too. No one was going to make it better for me but myself. I kept giving myself and other people the same pathetic excuses. I could be angry as long as it felt better than to feel responsible for where I'd brought myself. Attitude is everything. Survey the ruin and then move on and rebuild.

A person asking for what they're worth from someone who would rather pay less $$ to the less qualified person is not going to get the job. Risk / Reward. Maybe if the person keeps searching they'll find someone with the funds to pay what the applicant wants, maybe not. Right now, it's survival mode for some people. There are folks who used to make 3 figure salaries yet never learned how to financially plan for disaster, and they've lost their home and possibly other investments, often due to the perils of debt. People with more money who made some careless decisions about how to spend / save it are going through the same crap as the hardest workers, learning the hard way because let's face it- that's just how some people have to learn. Mistakes. Everyone makes them. No one is entitled to live some kind of perfect life. No one is capable of that. Worse, there is no challenge in that.

The stupid, the smart, the wise, the foolish, all are paying for the paths chosen until the attitude check comes knocking on the door asking the person to either give more or to give up, to either be proactive or to be self-pitying, to either get smart or to play dumb.

There is no one to blame but the self. The only person who can change your perspective of reality and hence your reality is... drum roll... you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OFF TOPIC:

Don't get me wrong, I'm just curious here. So if anything I say comes out sounding like an attack, it's likely to just be my inability to express myself properly.

I don't think I understand the bolded part. Full of s***? As in... what kind of s***?
Totally understandable. I didn't mean it as an attack either. There are over inflated egos on both sides. Perhaps I made an over generalization but from my experiences, there are a lot of hacks amongst graphic artists I've had to deal with. There are those who are heck smart and I've gotten along with those ones but those people are rare. I couldn't see myself having a meaningful conversation with the majority those that I interact with on a daily basis. They don't even want to admit that there are underlying mathematics with the work they do.

Animation, illustration, and graphic design are the biggest programs at my school. My electives are teeming with these troglodytes who diminish the quality of my education with their presence. I take a course in philosophy expecting to get my mind f***ed with in every crevace but the course is nothing but the very basics of the Enneagram... and these guys are struggling with it, yet their marks are as good as mine. I take an anthropology class and the professor, who has twp Ph.Ds, gives us that answers to a twenty question multiple choice test the week before. My friend takes a course in environmental science and he says the equivilant course in highschool was more challenging. The thing is, the school has been dumbing everything down for these guys so they can get their credits. They talk way too much during lectures, bringing up arguments that don't even compute.

However, I've met a few in the working world that are worthy of merit so I concede to the full of s*** part. You're kidding yourself though if you think that's anywhere near on par technically with even a business analyst.
 

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Totally understandable. I didn't mean it as an attack either.
Didn't think you did. Though I guess it's quite obvious we're both irritated. You at certain artists, me at certain programmers. :)

There are over inflated egos on both sides.
Indeed.

Perhaps I made an over generalization but from my experiences, there are a lot of hacks amongst graphic artists I've had to deal with.
Heheh... I'm now wondering if the programmers who gave me a hard time were actually INTJs. XD And it looks like you came across the kind of artists that irritated me too. :x

They don't even want to admit that there are underlying mathematics with the work they do.
Most of them probably don't even know. Remember not everyone is INTJ. I struggled with visual arts because I had to logically grasp the theories and facts behind aesthetics while others could do their work more 'naturally' by being guided by their feelings and/or senses.

You're kidding yourself though if you think that's anywhere near on par technically with even a business analyst.
Not sure if this is a general 'You' thing or a 'you' directed at me. But in case it's the latter, I actually agree; Art is not as technical, it is more intuitive/creative than anything. It uses a different set of intelligence and a different area/focus of knowledge for most part, so it's not usual to find left-brained individuals (ones more in tune with the processes facilitating 'technical' aspects) in that field. Though, of course, just like in any other field, there are only a few who are genuinely passionate about their work and seek to go in depth with what they're doing and/or to achieve true innovation. And It would seem artistic careers just happen to get more lazy bums (oh how I hated them) than other careers because they seem so easy and fun (It isn't the case when they are faced with the challenge of using creativity and thinking outside the box, though ;x)

In other words: If an artist is doing their thing and they're doing it well, they're using a form of intelligence - even if they can't tell you how much 23 - 7 is... The same way, I can't think people are stupid just because they can't even properly draw a chickie when it's soooooo easy to do that. I guess you get what I mean?

Anyway, thanks for the explanation. I guess both sides are just bound to have some friction.
 

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Quote "Given the fact that I'm 30 years old with an Associate's Degree in graphic design, statistics say I should be making $40k a year. I'm currently making around $14k a year. I can't remember the last time I woke up in the morning and felt glad to be alive. And that pisses me off. It pisses me off because I tried to do everything right my whole life. Finished school. Finished college. Got a degree. Never did drugs. Never got anyone pregnant. Can't claim that I helped my landlady carry out her garbage, but basically I followed all the rules. Very few traffic violations and the last one was years ago and has been off my record for years. In other words, I did all the things I was supposed to do and refrained from doing the things I'm not supposed to do. So why do the powers that be expect me to settle for the lowest common denominator? If there's anything I've learned from existence (it doesn't even deserve to be called "life"), it's that nihilism reigns supreme and no one is rewarded for anything despite any amount of effort. A person can kill themself more and more every day at work for an insultingly low wage and they're still expected to sacrifice evermore. Hope is a lie. We're already dead."

i am glad you made this a thread of its own because i was tempted to reply earlier but refrained as i also was aware my intended response might derail the thread, however, now we are where we are i feel free to comment - i hope it doesnt come across as preachy or holier than thou - its good advice meant well from someone who knows

a post such as this, suggests to me that the poster believes just because they have on paper done 'everything right' the world and everyone in it, owes him a living, that anything otherwise is just 'not fair'. well i think its time to wake up and smell the coffee

i hate to be the one bearing bad tidings but but news alert: and please listen:
'life is not fair!'

as long as anyone persists in that belief that life is fair they will be endlessly disappointed. there is no 'reward' for not getting anyone pregnant (well whopeedoo!) doing drugs or not getting many traffic violations - anyone who expects a pat on the back for that is deluding themselves and hopelessly immature. a degree is the reward for all the study - well done and very well deserved..... however a well paying job is not something anyone should take for granted and i feel the poster is sulking for not getting what they see as their 'right' - again i hear the teenage refrain 'that is so unfair i hate you'

that said...i think the poster can congratulate themselves on being an upstanding member of society, they can wake up every morning and can give thanks for their good education, that their good upbringing meant they are not in prison right now for dealing drugs and mugging old ladies, and that they are in a position which would be enviable to many many people.

If there's anything I've learned from life and existence its that :

giving up, feeling hopeless and feeling sorry for yourself is the absolutely best 100% guaranteed way to ensure you dont get what you want and that you continue to be miserable!!!!!!!!

life rewards persistence. if you want to be successful look at people who are successful and see what they do....observe carefully how their behaviours are different from yours...you may not need to change everything about yourself, and it may not come naturally at first, but you may need to copy some of their behaviours and techniques and attitudes and display (at least outwardly) a different disposition.

some people have everything handed to them on a plate but still persist in complaining, and some people have such challenges in life, bad starts, disabilities you name it, its happened, but they still persist in viewing life through hopeful lenses and manage to smile each morning - its not life that is crap, its just the way an individual perceives it, and people treat us differently according to the way we behave, if you want to be treated differently, start acting differently. we avoid grumpy angry sourfaced argumentative miserable people but naturally gravitate to people who smile, who listen, who dont spend all their time complaining about how hard they have it, who have a positive and optimistic demeanour - guess which of those other groups of people ends up happier in the long run, you just have to decide which group you want to be in.

life is a game ....there are rules...be one of those people who stops railing about how unfair it is, learn the rules, maybe lower your some of your expectations a teeny bit, and you will be happy
if you still feel sorry for yourself....watch the pursuit of happyness with will smith (which was based on a true story)....after watching that i defy anyone to still feel like giving up or feel sorry for themselves

Requoted "So why do the powers that be expect me to settle for the lowest common denominator?" the only person who decides to 'settle' is you. This story of someone who wasnt prepared to settle for what life handed out, having being told they will never walk again is especially inspirational :

For the tens of thousands of people who completed the London Marathon almost a fortnight ago, the aches and pains are but a distant memory. But for one lone man, the excruciating journey is still continuing. Major Phil Packer, the Royal Military Police officer who was told he would never walk again after a bombing in Basra, is still slowly making his way towards the finish line. More than two thirds through the 26.2 mile course, Major Packer hobbled past Tower Bridge this morning, accompanied by a band of well-wishers and a support soundtrack of beeps from passing motorists.Although the pain from every excruciating step was evident by the grimace on his face, Major Packer - in typical style - underplayed his torment.“Its like doing anything difficult. You put your head down and get on with it,” he said.“It’s bloody painful. But I’m doing alright.”Major Packer was rendered paraplegic in a rocket attack on the British base in Basra in February last year. Deployed as the force marshal overseeing up to 5,000 men, he was knocked down by an armoured vehicle in the chaos following a rocket attack on the British base.He suffered bruising to his heart, broken ribs and an injury to the base of his spine. He was left a paraplegic and doctors told him that he would not walk again.Major Packer intends to complete the marathon by Saturday - aided by a pair of crutches and sheer determination.He said that the fellow injured soldiers that he met at Headley Court, the military rehabilitation centre in Surrey, had motivated him.“If you see a 19-year-old who has had a triple amputation and is trying to make the most of it - I can’t imagine what that is like. I just want to do this for him.” His target is to raise £1 million for Help for Heroes, a charity for injured soldiers. He says that if he does not hit that target, he will feel he has let people down.Along his journey through vast swathes of London, Major Packer has received overwhelming support from the public.Ambulances, taxis and ordinary vehicles have stopped to give donations. Since the beginning of the marathon, Major Packer has collected £360,000, raising his overall total to £570,000.To date, despite his incapacity, Major Packer has rowed the Channel in rough seas, sailed unassisted, achieved a sky dive and completed a water-skiing event. In three weeks time, after recovering from the marathon, he will travel to El Capitan in Yosemite National Park to complete his year of activity.Then he will return to work for a two-year posting in London with the Royal Military Police.
 

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I didn't realize until I first started working as a temp how amazingly incompetent most employees are. Once I got it, I stopped humble interviewing. The professional world is the only area where being an INTJ is going to be appreciated. I have found that the more arrogant I am in an interview the higher my chances of getting the job. I purposely spend the interview telling them why others can't do what I can. I have never gotten a negative reaction from this, but I have been offered a higher salary walking out of the interview than was offered walking in. You are basically selling INTJ-ness. And it's worth a whole lot to an employer, but you have to tell them who you are.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You are basically selling INTJ-ness. And it's worth a whole lot to an employer, but you have to tell them who you are.
Interviewer: Name three of your strengths
INTJ: Intuition; I see the big picture very easily and come to envision the end results of things quickly. Organized thinking; everything I touch must be streamlined. I love using charts, graphs, and other visual aids to help see how things relate. Adaptability; I love structure and organiztion but at the same time, you have to be ready for what might get thrown at you at any given moment. It's too east to say "I wasn't trained for this" or "this isn't my job" but those things still need to get done and being able to change hats is a necessity.

Interviewer: Name a weakness
INTJ: I have a habbit of saying things as they are without too much thought on how someone might feel about it. No hard feelings about it but still, I'm working on being a little more sensitive.


They love these lines.
 

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Interviewer: Name three of your strengths
INTJ: Intuition; I see the big picture very easily and come to envision the end results of things quickly. Organized thinking; everything I touch must be streamlined. I love using charts, graphs, and other visual aids to help see how things relate. Adaptability; I love structure and organiztion but at the same time, you have to be ready for what might get thrown at you at any given moment. It's too east to say "I wasn't trained for this" or "this isn't my job" but those things still need to get done and being able to change hats is a necessity.

Interviewer: Name a weakness
INTJ: I have a habbit of saying things as they are without too much thought on how someone might feel about it. No hard feelings about it but still, I'm working on being a little more sensitive.

They love these lines.
....... nice! ...........
 
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