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Discussion Starter #1
There's a woman at work who is most definitely ESFx and she has a daughter of about 5 or 6.

As mothers do, she shares little anecdotes of the various exchanges with the child, and from what she is telling me, the girl is showing all signs of being NT. In fact, I may go as far to say, of being INTP. She asks all sorts of interesting questions of her mother, and they all ask around the issue - a terrific question she asked her mother is how do babies eat in the womb? She also refuses to be pushed into issues she feels are unimportant, and is quite happy to maintain status quo with something she feels most comfortable with. Okay, it's early days, and I have only met the girl a couple of times, but what concerns me a bit is the mother. The mum is pushing her to try all sorts of things and has actually said out loud "she doesn't know what she wants." - but I know that she has asked of her opinion (such as birthday parties/treats/days out etc) but the child has always answered with activities that she has done before, and the mother has always vetoed, as variety to her, is the spice of life. She is also extremely clingy and protective of the girl, for reasons I won't go into, but even I can understand. If I hint and say the child has no siblings, and will never have, you can probably imagine the rest.

Anyhoo, I couldn't presume to interfere with the way the child is being brought up and I'm not going to ask for it to give to her, as it's none of my business, I don't have children, and am unlikely to have them. I was brought up by an NT and NF, with an ST mother (I think), who had only a small part in my upbringing, so I have no experience to draw on in my own life.

My thoughts though, is that the mother is heading for trouble, and probably an almighty rebellion when the kid hits her teens, as I think that she is being too controlling of what the kid should or should not like or do.

Does being brought up by an SF harden your resolve to rebel, or the complete opposite? Were you brought up by an SF, was there a collision, did you get over it, or is there a rift which would need a ton of time and consultation to fill? Did being brought up by an SF make you more NT, or did it help you express your feelings better?
 
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Hm, well I had plenty of SF relatives, but my parents were ST. They could be understanding at times, but for the most part they were just extremely annoying, I could only imagine how terrible it would be to be raised by a SF.

But, yes, I'm sure there were be some rebellion because my parents tried to be controlling, so I would sneak out almost every night. I could understand if I were a dumb kid or if I got into a lot of trouble, but I didn't, so I didn't see why they were they way, so I didn't listen. If it doesn't make sense I don't pay it any attention, which is what she'll probably end up doing because SFs don't make sense.

Their personalities are too different, I'm not saying they won't get along at all, but it'll be rocky and it'll probably take until the kid's adulthood for any real understanding between them, especially since the SF is the adult, she isn't going to see the kid's argument as a valid and... yeah, I don't see it being too pretty.
 

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I was raised by an ESFJ and she could never appreciate my need for independence. She was majorly clingy and still is. Even till this day, she tells me to go to bed at a certain time. I'm 21 years old. That time is long gone and I refuse to listen to her.
 

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My mother is an ESTJ (although she may well be an ESFJ) and I think my father is either an ENTP or an ENFP, it's very difficult for me to decide which, although i'm leaning towards ENFP.

So none of them are SFs. But I will describe the way I "rebelled" against my mother. In brief my parents divorced when I was 12 and from the age of 6-12 I saw my father only a few months a year, so I have grown up "with" my mother. My dad was the one who disciplined me - for many years I was actually scared of his discipline, but now, his rules seem much more reasonable to me, because they're based on logic (I think he's ENFP because he seems to use Fi and never Fe and Te and never Ti, but i'm unsure)

Until about 16 I was a golden child. Sure I might not tidy my room as often as my mum would like. But I got good grades at school, never swore, never drank, never broke the house rules, etc. I considered skipping school on the last day of term a serious crime and felt very very dangerous when I did it. In other words I was rather more of a goodie-two shoes who followed mum's (perfectly reasonable!) rules and was happy to do so.

But after that I became a bit more adventurous. But it wasn't that the rules changed, but I began to object to them: because I no longer found them reasonable. Why shouldn't I drink vodka and whiskey at 16? Why shouldn't I smoke cigarettes and cannabis? Why shouldn't I go to bed at 2AM? Why should I pay attention in school (my arrogance presumed I would get As regardless)? It was a change in me, I don't know where from, that decided I wanted to do all these things and that the impositions against them had no basis in reason.

So I violated them where I could. Bear in mind that I don't think I ever was a "problem child," but some of the more conservative Americans may find some of the things I did absolutely shocking (like getting drunk at school, smoking indoors against my parent's will, smoking cannabis in the house when my mum wasn't there etc), although certainly if my mum thinks that she had problems with me (I don't think she does) she has no grasp on reality, and that was something I kept saying - you think I'm bad? Look at all those chavs out there...

But the reason I violated them was based on reason. I just found her rules absolutely unreasonable. In retrospect I can see that they were for my own good and I was silly to break them (although I got some valuable experiences out of it) but that wasn't the case at the time, and for a couple of years there was a lot of tension, because her rules were based, in my opinion, on simply "doing things for the sake of it" and "what would the neighbours think" opinions, neither of which I thought were logical reasons for preventing me from doing any of these things. On the other hand, I know that she thought she was doing the best for her child and trying to prevent him from reckless behaviour.

Now our relationship is much better because I am much more mature. Events of a certain nature have enabled me to see things in a much more mature light, but this tension really did grate on me for a long time, knowing that a lot of the things I loved to do would meet with disapproval and if I openly announced them my freedom - something I value intensely, for anyone who knows me - would be infringed upon. I think that must be a major problem for any NTs raised by Si dom parents.
 

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Actually, both my natural parents are SF (mom ESFJ, dad ISFP). And honestly, they were always pretty lenient. Annoying, but no strict rules.

However, an INTJ became my legal guardian for a while, and I actually got in trouble WAY more with him, because I did whatever I wanted.

Though ironically, I get along really well with the INTJ to this day. We always clicked on a mental level. He just thought I was wild and crazy during my childhood and teen years. No resentment to him at all, even though I hated the structure he tried to impose on me when I was 14.

Can't say the same for my SF parents. No rules or supervision, but I still had to axe them out my lives because I just couldn't deal with them. (Though the ISFP father has passed since then).
 

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My Mum is ESFP (according to a test, but I don't have proficient typing skills to validate this) and although I love her very much, there are definitely some differences between us.

Such as the need to constantly ask if I'm okay - just because I'm a bit quiet doesn't mean I'm having a bad day.
The touchy feely stuff too, and the oblivious interruption of my thinking time (such as when I have zoned out at the dinner table because of the incessant chatter!).

My only saving grace is that she was married to my INTJ father for 11 years, so seems to get how we work...ish...and I'm away at boarding school!! :laughing:

However, I do think that being brought up by her has strengthened my feeling side, as I do think I am more emotional than other NTs. She has the ability to make me feel incredibly guilty (often inadvertantly) and I often find myself crying at films and such, which may be down to her influence!
 

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Only 5 or 6 and wanting to know how babies eat in the womb? If I have kids, I hope they're that sharp!

My mom's an ISFJ and my dad's an ISFX (though far more likely an SJ than an SP). My mom's J manifested more in orderliness and organization than in having to be in control or having strict rules. Both my parents are extremely laid back, and it bled over to most parts of raising children - though poor folks, they had an NT and SP to raise, so I'm sure they were confused and hurt a lot of the time!!

Does being brought up by an SF harden your resolve to rebel, or the complete opposite? Were you brought up by an SF, was there a collision, did you get over it, or is there a rift which would need a ton of time and consultation to fill?
I rarely rebelled against my parents. For the most part, they were quite practical and logical about their rules. Really the only complaint I had with them was that they were overprotective (I imagine I would be just as bad in the shoes of a parent, so I can't complain too much) and therefore illogical in a few different areas, but I could see the logic behind* most* of it, and I also so that most of it was in place because of my brother and I understood that having different rules for different kids would have created a lot of dissension and resentment, so because of the logic I just saw no need to rebel. My SP brother, on the other hand, was the complete opposite - truly no logic involved there!!

Did being brought up by an SF make you more NT, or did it help you express your feelings better?
More NT? Hmm, I don't know. I was pretty NT before I got old enough to really question my parents, so I don't know. As for expressing my feelings better, I'm pretty crap at it, so perhaps the few times I do okay is due to their influence...I don't know. My mother always encouraged me to not bottle up my feelings, but she certainly never forced me to share them, either.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Napoleptic, very useful post. I think to a certain extent, the extrovertism of the mother is key here, I think she may be trying to shape her child into becoming an extrovert, where all signs are that she probably won't be, and this is where, along with the SF of the mother against the NT that they may be on a collision course. As an example of E vs I, they went to some panto or some such, and was one of those performances in which the audience were encouraged to be quite touchy feely. The mother practically pushed her kid up to the front, and the girl was saying she didn't want to!!
 

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Thanks Napoleptic, very useful post. I think to a certain extent, the extrovertism of the mother is key here, I think she may be trying to shape her child into becoming an extrovert, where all signs are that she probably won't be, and this is where, along with the SF of the mother against the NT that they may be on a collision course. As an example of E vs I, they went to some panto or some such, and was one of those performances in which the audience were encouraged to be quite touchy feely. The mother practically pushed her kid up to the front, and the girl was saying she didn't want to!!
As much as this makes me cringe, perhaps we NTs benefit from this far more than we realize. I would love to develop my Fi more, but I have no ideas on how to do so that don't involve extreme discomfort. Perhaps childhood is both the best time in terms of pliability, and in having someone who's in charge of us to push us into scenarios we don't want to be in, so that we gain that experience.

I'm glad you found my post useful...judging by a few threads on INTJforum, I seem to be one of the few INTJs who even likes the ISFJ mom she has, let alone loves her - I think she's the bee's knees!
 

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I think you may voice you oppinion to her mother, maybe even look up the best way to appeal to an sf, but in no way should you attempt to interfere further than that. It is a mother's right to raise that child as she chooses fit and just cause it may seem wrong to you does not give you precedence over the mother. If i was you i would be very careful how you handle this, the outcome may become worse if you meddle.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I think you may voice you oppinion to her mother, maybe even look up the best way to appeal to an sf, but in no way should you attempt to interfere further than that. It is a mother's right to raise that child as she chooses fit and just cause it may seem wrong to you does not give you precedence over the mother. If i was you i would be very careful how you handle this, the outcome may become worse if you meddle.
Thanks - but note my OP. I have no wish to interfere, it is none of my business, and as a non-mother, how would I know the first thing about it? I am merely fascinated by this developing relationship - after next year I may never see her or her child again.

She's also the type that listens very patiently to your advice, and then ignores it.:happy: I'm sure the kid will turn out fine.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
I'm glad you found my post useful...judging by a few threads on INTJforum, I seem to be one of the few INTJs who even likes the ISFJ mom she has, let alone loves her - I think she's the bee's knees!
I married an SF.:happy: The one personality that I think I clash with, badly, tends to be INFJ.
 

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My mother's an SJ and I can't stand her most of the time.(I'm an INTP.) She walks into my room and starts moving things around and closing doors and I freak out. We're both pretty unhappy about being related.
I feel bad for that child.
 

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My mom is XSFJ. She's actually very open-minded and supportive; when I was little she generally allowed me to do what I enjoyed i.e. reading, obsessively researching topics of interest, doing artwork; as opposed to playing outside and having playdates (thank goodness). The main problem now that I'm a teenager is that no matter how hard she tries, she simply can't understand me, just as I can't really understand her. For example, she thinks that my Ni-induced absent-mindedness is simply carelessness, that my lack of interest in relationships and social interactions is an attitude problem, etc. The understanding issue is definitely the biggest problem.
I think the need to rebel part depends on a lot of other factors like maturity level and outside influences. I also think that self-esteem plays a role--It's important that she isn't made to feel like there's something wrong with her just because she's different. Maybe she needs a nice, cold, insensitive NT parent-figure in her life :crazy:
 

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I have an ESFJ mom, and I'm frequently annoyed by her insanity. At least I got some Fe for my troubles.
 

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My mom is XSFJ. She's actually very open-minded and supportive; when I was little she generally allowed me to do what I enjoyed i.e. reading, obsessively researching topics of interest, doing artwork; as opposed to playing outside and having playdates (thank goodness). The main problem now that I'm a teenager is that no matter how hard she tries, she simply can't understand me, just as I can't really understand her. For example, she thinks that my Ni-induced absent-mindedness is simply carelessness, that my lack of interest in relationships and social interactions is an attitude problem, etc. The understanding issue is definitely the biggest problem.
OH MY GOD THAT'S MY LIFE^
Sorry, I tend to freak out when I can relate to people because it happens so infrequently.
My mother and I don't understand each other either. We can't even argue properly because I keep throw facts at her and then I don't understand why she won't accept them cause they're FACTS! And I get so frustrated when she says things like, 'because I'm your mother!' :dry:
 

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The child will be fine. Especially if she is an NT.

As long as the mother loves her child and provides for her, the child will find her own way. Part of being a parent is learning that your preconceived notions of who your child is and what they need is completely wrong, and figuring out what to do about that. Being a parent is as much of a journey as being a child, and being raised by parents that don't understand us has the potential to build character and teach us tolerance and patience.
So many people today coddle children and try to make sure that they parent "perfectly", so that the little tykes are never uncomfortable or bored for even a minute. Is this teaching a small person how to be a big person? I think not.
Understanding your child's temperament is very helpful. Catering to it? Not necessarily.
What's more frustrating than parenting a child who is completely different from you? Getting advice about that child from people who have never met her. Just be a good listener. ESFXs appreciate that. :wink:
 

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Does being brought up by an SF harden your resolve to rebel, or the complete opposite? Were you brought up by an SF, was there a collision, did you get over it, or is there a rift which would need a ton of time and consultation to fill? Did being brought up by an SF make you more NT, or did it help you express your feelings better?
In my teens, I had serious collisions with my SF parents because they forced me to do illogical stuff all the fucking time! I was so seriously disturbed and depressed that I had to consult psychiatrist. I thought he will say I am mad and I will be safely locked up somewhere because I used to fight everyday with them over small issues. But he said I was perfectly normal and gave me some anti-depressants.

After that phase, I tried to place myself in their place and analyze their thoughts, reasons and patterns and learned to become more tolerant. I think in all these times, the only thing that brought me peace and sense was my ENFP sister to whom I will be forever grateful for being in my life during that time. Or I would have become a heartless monster by then.
 

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My mother and sister are both ESFJs, and I can relate. If the mother backs down once in awhile, and lets the child rest, she will be fine. I have had moments where I have exploded in rage when stressed due to the emotional blackmail of my mom and sister.
 
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