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Discussion Starter #1
I've noticed in the past that some NT's on here have mentioned that SFJ's tend to grind their gears and they have trouble getting along with them. Of course, this isn't going to be true across the board. However, it's not surprising, with the NT vs. SF difference. I've also always theorized that SFP's are more easy-going and easy to get along with than SFJ's, so I figured that NT's wouldn't be as likely to butt heads with them.


This certainly doesn't mean that these types can't get along with each other and have relationships, though. I've read about a number of relationships between NT's and SFJ's on here, and even though some certainly have their difficulties, there are good ones as well. I know for me, an ISFJ, my best friend is an INTJ, my dad is an ENTJ, my oldest brother is an ENTJ, I have an online ENTP friend who's taught me a lot, and I have another decently close online INTJ friend. So it's clearly possible that SFJ's can have good relationships with NT's.

And why not? As we all should know, even though type can tell us general things about each other, we're all still people, and type in itself shouldn't keep people from being friends or learning from each other.


However, that doesn't mean that frustrations that NT's generally have with SFJ's aren't valid, and I know that I always enjoy learning a lot about other types and how to improve relationships between them (probably my secondary Fe coming out :tongue: ).

So I wanted to hear from the NT's the major problems you see in SFJ's and what you would like to see them change or improve in general. Keep in mind that they still are SFJ's and are never going to become completely new people...but that doesn't mean that improvements can't be made. I know that at least for me, if I'm aware of things that NT's hate, I can at least learn to keep them in control and not accentuate them when interacting with NT's.

(And I know some NT's like to joke about things like this, so I hope I don't hear responses like "not making posts like this", "not doing everything they do", or "staying away from me". :tongue: But alas, the responses will be what they'll be. )
 

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I generally don't have a problem with SFJ's, I admire their hard work and how much they care for people. So long as they are sane individuals I get along with them just fine. Of course there are times when we don't get along, but as you stated, we are people, it happens with everyone.

I also like them because they lead such different lives from my own and have such different goal sets and morals, and yet can mostly get along with me and understand my motives even though they are so vastly different. And most of my SFJ friends quite enjoy my sense of humor.

Then again, I'm only talking about the ones I am close with, so I wouldn't take this as an over generalization.
 

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Technically, ISFJ (Si, Fe, Ti, Ne) is just the reverse of my ENTP functions (Ne, Ti, Fe, Si). I assume that if I use my Fe and Si to understand where the ISFJ is coming from, I wouldn't have a problem with communicating with them. The thing that probably will clash together is the procedural part where a ISFJ would rely on his Si more than his Ne. And since I rely on my Ne more than my Si, we will perceive things differently. This covers for two types of NTs, the INTP (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe) and the ENTP. Though, I have a INTP friend that constantly complains about feelers but that's just probably her bad experiences.

My mom is a ESFJ (Fe, Si, Ne, Ti). We clash a lot in times of conflict but over time I noticed she became less critical of me (and maybe me less critical of her). She used to say things that would make me hate what I am doing like why did I get this ugly haircut, not shave my incriminating facial hair, clean up my infested room. The thing is at the end of the day, I can still understand where she was coming from.

I don't have a problem with SFJ's because I've learned to live with them. I think there are NT's and SFJ's that just don't put enough time to try and understand where they are coming from. That is what leads to conflict, poor communication and anger not types.

Sometimes I don't understand other NT's like the ENTJs and the INTJs who have totally different functions. But that I will respect their opinion more (personal NT bias) because they rely on their head more just in a different manner than I do. This doesn't mean I won't accept a SJ or SP's opinion, it just has to be intuitive and thinking focused. I treat everyone equally and I deal with the issues, not people, so if the issues are dealt with, then we're all happy and can continue our lives.

I'm glad SFJ's are taking the time to understand the NT's. Sometimes the NT's get stuck in their head, you have to pull them back onto the ground and remind them they're human.
 

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I think my mum may be an ISFJ and she's generally lovely, but we do clash alot (I remember one comment that made me laugh, she said 'Why can't you be more normal?') and I'm friends with an ESFJ (although again we clash, more than I do with my mum I think).
 

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I think my sister is ESFJ. We never got along since early childhood. As adults we are cordial but just tolerate each other's company. She thinks I'm boring and nerdy, and I think she is boring and obnoxious. She and my ISTJ husband HATE Ne. They hate the open-endedness of it, especially my husband who attacks my moral character. My sister just thinks I'm a dork and loves to comment on my (and other people's) appearance/attire. It was funny the first 10,000 times we made fun of each other's appearance, but it gets old. My husband and I have gotten into fights over a fucking paint job on a car. He says I am hard to live with. I think I am easy to get along with unless you push my buttons. I guess to an SJ like my husband or sister, "hard to live with" means I will not let you push me around or treat me like I'm your accessory. Fuck. Another thing I can't stand about SJ's is their way of creating "facts" out of thin air and then using their fabricated facts as points of argument.

Well Teddy, you're nice though. You have a well-developed intuition. Thanks for listening to my rant. :laughing:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't have a problem with SFJ's because I've learned to live with them. I think there are NT's and SFJ's that just don't put enough time to try and understand where they are coming from. That is what leads to conflict, poor communication and anger not types.
I definitely think you're right, and as someone mentioned in another thread, I think we all have to be careful not to look into type too deeply. I've noticed some animosity between different types on the board sometimes, and I think sometimes people are too quick to judge types that are different than they are. I know a lot of it is blowing off steam, and a lot of it is past bad experiences too. But even though it may be satisfying to learn about type and think "Hey, that's why I don't get along with that person!", we all should be careful not to let that limit us from relationships with new people.



st0831 said:
I'm glad SFJ's are taking the time to understand the NT's. Sometimes the NT's get stuck in their head, you have to pull them back onto the ground and remind them they're human.
I know SJ's in general can sometimes get really stuck in their ways and not be as open to different people and different ways of thinking as they should. I'll talk about that more a little later in this post.

As for NT's...I remember reading a comment on here one time by an NT saying that online NT's a lot of times act differently than they do in real life. They have the power to show exactly what parts of them that they want to, hiding their vulnerabilities a lot more than they can in real life. And that makes sense...if an NT wants to stick to intellectual discussions where they're at the peak of their strengths, they can. Unfortunately, in some cases, this may lead to more obnoxious behavior. Of course, this can happen for any one of the four temperaments, but I remind myself sometimes not to take some NT antics as seriously as I would in real life. :wink:


Nitou said:
I think my sister is ESFJ. We never got along since early childhood. As adults we are cordial but just tolerate each other's company. She thinks I'm boring and nerdy, and I think she is boring and obnoxious. She and my ISTJ husband HATE Ne. They hate the open-endedness of it, especially my husband who attacks my moral character. My sister just thinks I'm a dork and loves to comment on my (and other people's) appearance/attire. It was funny the first 10,000 times we made fun of each other's appearance, but it gets old. My husband and I have gotten into fights over a fucking paint job on a car. He says I am hard to live with. I think I am easy to get along with unless you push my buttons. I guess to an SJ like my husband or sister, "hard to live with" means I will not let you push me around or treat me like I'm your accessory. Fuck. Another thing I can't stand about SJ's is their way of creating "facts" out of thin air and then using their fabricated facts as points of argument.

Teddy, You have a well-developed intuition.
Yeah...I'm always cautious about tooting my own horn in that regard, because I still don't understand intuitive functions completely. And compared to N's I know, and especially to N's on here, my intuition is very weak. However, I really do believe that compared to a lot S's, especially SJ's, my intuition is pretty strong.

I've come to the belief that it's due to my interaction message boards over the years. I think I've discussed things with people who were probably NT's, so I've gotten used to their way of thinking and not been as scared of it as a lot of SJ's, especially SFJ's, are. I have to remind myself when people talk about SFJ's, a lot of times I'm willing to bet that the ones they're referring to are pretty stuck in their ways and not as adept at rational thinking. Of course, I'm like this to when put in comparison to NT's, but probably not as much as a lot of SFJ's.

For me I like to think back to before I had a lot of these past online conversations though, and I think I can see where I've grown a good bit. As an ISxJ, Si is my dominant function, so my whole world of security and happiness is based on consistency and using the past to live my life out through the present. That's why it's really hard for me to accept new ideas sometimes...because changing my way of thinking takes such a toll on my happiness and security in life.

When I was younger, I would really latch onto ideas a whole lot. So, when I got into conversations with NT's, I was very stubborn and was determined that I wasn't going to change my beliefs. Instead of focusing on the points they were trying to make, I was focusing on out-arguing them. It's because that in my head I felt like there was no way I was going to change my mind, but I was also really scared of looking stupid. Most NT's I had talked to had probably thought about the issues very deeply and objectively, so they were very good at making their points and refuting mine. So I got intimidated, and sometimes get very emotional. The problem was that I was just too scared to let go of certain ways of thinking, and it made it even worse when I got into a conversation and was scared of "losing" the argument. Not only would it make me feel stupid, but I was always afraid that I would lose ground and not have a good, logical reason to hold onto my old belief.


I think what's happened over the years for me is that in a lot of conversations people have appealed to my Fe. When discussing an issue, if someone was able to point out how what I was arguing had the capability of hurting other people, I was a lot more apt to re-think it. That kind of opened the doors into my understanding the importance of objectivity in arguments and why it was important to NT's. By looking at how decisions affected everyone personally, NT's convinced me that it was important to take into account a lot of other factors rather than just my own feelings...and this made me more open to considering new ways of thinking.


I think the other thing too I learned was the aspect of separation. With certain issues, particularly ones that affect a large number of people, I've learned to think more like an NT, and to be as objective as possible in order to be fair to people of very diverse backgrounds. But I've also come to accept that it's ok for me to hold onto certain personal beliefs that make me happy in life, as long as they aren't directly hurting others. I've understood that I can hold those beliefs but it's ok for someone else to hold others because what's important to them is different than what's important to me.


So anyway, like I said, it's quite possible that I have stronger intuitive functions than the average SFJ, and that's something for me to keep in mind. But I'm also clearly an ISFJ, and I like sharing my own personal insights into them as I learn more about NT's and other types as well.


Nitou said:
Well Teddy, you're nice though. You have a well-developed intuition. Thanks for listening to my rant.
Aww, thanks. You know just what to say to make an ISFJ feel good and comfortable on the NT part of the forum. :happy:
 
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Things I have observed:
SFJs see things in a whole other light
SFJs and I usually understand each other's point of view, but...
We have totally different priorities, leading us to disagree on that point anyway

An important point for me and probably a lot of other NTs, is that feelings don't have much currency in my world. I admit that I'm insensitive, but I don't go around intentionally hurting people's feelings because to me, an attack on feelings is dishonourable and completely invalid. Also, I tend to go off into a mental world (mental in both senses). Sometimes I react externally to things that happen in my mind so if I behave strangely, it probably means that I'm comfortable around you rather than your presence upsets me (this happens to me a lot with ISFJs).
 

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teddy564339 said:
As for NT's...I remember reading a comment on here one time by an NT saying that online NT's a lot of times act differently than they do in real life. They have the power to show exactly what parts of them that they want to, hiding their vulnerabilities a lot more than they can in real life. And that makes sense...if an NT wants to stick to intellectual discussions where they're at the peak of their strengths, they can. Unfortunately, in some cases, this may lead to more obnoxious behavior. Of course, this can happen for any one of the four temperaments, but I remind myself sometimes not to take some NT antics as seriously as I would in real life.
I have assumed that many people have a persona they wear online that may or may not resemble their real life persona. On a forum where interaction is not in real time it is easier to research and construct your arguments. I have tended to be more aggressive and argumentative online than in real life just because it is more acceptable online. On the other hand, I have also been more willing to talk about things (such as my feelings or controversial beliefs) that I withhold in real life.

When I was younger, I would really latch onto ideas a whole lot. So, when I got into conversations with NT's, I was very stubborn and was determined that I wasn't going to change my beliefs. Instead of focusing on the points they were trying to make, I was focusing on out-arguing them. It's because that in my head I felt like there was no way I was going to change my mind, but I was also really scared of looking stupid. Most NT's I had talked to had probably thought about the issues very deeply and objectively, so they were very good at making their points and refuting mine. So I got intimidated, and sometimes get very emotional. The problem was that I was just too scared to let go of certain ways of thinking, and it made it even worse when I got into a conversation and was scared of "losing" the argument. Not only would it make me feel stupid, but I was always afraid that I would lose ground and not have a good, logical reason to hold onto my old belief.
Many people including NT's are there to argue and can't or won't give serious consideration to the other point of view. NT's aren't always as objective as they like to think they are and they may have blind spots. This is especially true when dealing with value judgments or things that cannot be understood empirically.
 

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I think it goes something like this:

SFJ approaches INTJ with a need for validation, approval, blind belief, agreement, gratitude, recognition etc. INTJ sees this as insecurity and, valuing self-sufficiency, won't be used like that. This refusal to be co-opted as a crutch is interpreted as an outright attack by the other person and is responded to accordingly: the INTJ's distance with devaluation; the lack of praise with insult; the lack of cliche affection markers with hostility and paranoia; and the refusal to bend over backwards for their feelings with a denial the INTJ could ever have any. INTJ considers it inefficient to interact further with someone who has so tenuous a grip on reality and rarely bothers even to retaliate. SFJ consoles self with the idea that INTJ probably eats babies and tortures puppies, as no nice person would fail to ooze validation in response to their greatness/kindness. The INTJ has yet another reason to consider humans needy, vicious, and irrational. Lather, rinse and repeat.

I don't like people who think praise, respect, and affection are things that are a requirement for interacting with people, rather than something to be earned. I don't like people who call my having a different opinion from them an "argument." I don't like people who are so caught up in specific, unreasonable, desires that they ignore the fact that I am treating them very well. I don't like people who expect me to read their minds and anticipate their needs, as if I was for some reason supposed to be thinking about them. I despise passive-aggressiveness. I never lie and I won't be made to = "be someone else and lie to me to make me happy" is the standard demand. I hide nothing, tell the truth, and dislike people who try to tear my "shell" of "coldness" to shreds, so convinced I have to be like them underneath that they refuse to acknowledge that it is my self they are trying to rip apart - and then blame me or diagnose me for not letting go of this "unhealthy mask" to reveal the different person they would rather have underneath, since I am apparently not good enough. I also don't like people who deny me the right to shut the door on relationships that are toxic to me, insisting that it could be fixed and we should all sing songs and hold hands together - especially when "fixing" it in their view is all me acting differently. A door in the face is sometimes the best way of living a healthy life - there is no requirement for me to ever like or respect you. Dislike is not an insult - merely incompatibility. But I don't pick fights or go after them or do anything at all really - just if someone constantly attacks me, I see no reason to consider them a potential friend.

In my experience, SFJs do this very very often to me. NFs as well though, sometimes, but the possibility of communication with the exceptions, and existence thereof, has generally been greater.
 

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SFJs are numerous and therefore vary. I have at least two good SFJ friends, and one though I have almost nothing in common with, we have a lot of history and get along great. The other gets my humor and we just make each other laugh.
 

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I think it goes something like this:

SFJ approaches INTJ with a need for validation, approval, blind belief, agreement, gratitude, recognition etc. INTJ sees this as insecurity and, valuing self-sufficiency, won't be used like that. This refusal to be co-opted as a crutch is interpreted as an outright attack by the other person and is responded to accordingly: the INTJ's distance with devaluation; the lack of praise with insult; the lack of cliche affection markers with hostility and paranoia; and the refusal to bend over backwards for their feelings with a denial the INTJ could ever have any. INTJ considers it inefficient to interact further with someone who has so tenuous a grip on reality and rarely bothers even to retaliate. SFJ consoles self with the idea that INTJ probably eats babies and tortures puppies, as no nice person would fail to ooze validation in response to their greatness/kindness. The INTJ has yet another reason to consider humans needy, vicious, and irrational. Lather, rinse and repeat.
So...lirulin basicallly just summed up how my interactions (to this point) have gone with my SFJ friend (and the word 'friend' is tenuous at this point). That need for validation...it just irks me to the point that I do all of the above. Not to mention, the need to validate -me- (e.g., those little "you're so great at that! don't think otherwise!" types of remarks) irk me just as much, if not more. I have huge self-confidence, but sometimes I just want to bitch and complain. Doesn't mean I have lost confidence in myself; nope, I'm just as great as I always have been.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
I think it goes something like this:

SFJ approaches INTJ with a need for validation, approval, blind belief, agreement, gratitude, recognition etc. INTJ sees this as insecurity and, valuing self-sufficiency, won't be used like that. This refusal to be co-opted as a crutch is interpreted as an outright attack by the other person and is responded to accordingly: the INTJ's distance with devaluation; the lack of praise with insult; the lack of cliche affection markers with hostility and paranoia; and the refusal to bend over backwards for their feelings with a denial the INTJ could ever have any. INTJ considers it inefficient to interact further with someone who has so tenuous a grip on reality and rarely bothers even to retaliate. SFJ consoles self with the idea that INTJ probably eats babies and tortures puppies, as no nice person would fail to ooze validation in response to their greatness/kindness. The INTJ has yet another reason to consider humans needy, vicious, and irrational. Lather, rinse and repeat.
Interesting. Is this scenario based mostly on your own personal experiences, or have you found that it's something that's common among INTJ's? I ask this because with my two INTJ friends, I think I've seen glimpses of this kind of interaction, but not as strongly as you describe it. Of course, people of a type are going to vary greatly, but I was wondering if the norm among INTJ's is more similar to your experience or the ones I've had with my INTJ friends.



lirulin said:
I don't like people who think praise, respect, and affection are things that are a requirement for interacting with people, rather than something to be earned.
I think I've heard various people hold a similar belief before. I think what I've always wondered is how initial interactions with people end up going, how first impressions are formed, and how relationships develop when this is the starting point. For me, I tend to automatically have a respect for someone until they do something to lose it because I don't have anything to base it on when first meeting them. If I don't give it to them, it may be interpreted as rudeness, which would create a barrier in me getting to know who they are and develop a better understanding of how to evaluate them. In addition, sometimes I may have to work with someone for a short period of time, and I've found that if I don't give them an initial respect before getting to know them, it only makes working with them more tense and frustrating.

So I'm curious to hear how you develop relationships with people, particularly upon first meeting with them or collaborating with them. Do you find that your initial attitude makes this more difficult (or at least makes you have to have patience to see whether someone earns your respect)? When you first formed friendships with your friends, did you find them earning your respect easily and naturally, or were their misunderstandings along the way that you had to work past?

In addition, have you found that this has impacted the type of work you prefer? Do you tend to enjoy more solitary work, or have you been able to find people to work with that adhere to your expectations?

lirulin said:
I don't like people who are so caught up in specific, unreasonable, desires that they ignore the fact that I am treating them very well.
This is another issue where I think it boils down to communication. I think it's possible that one person may think they are treating someone well and the other person doesn't interpret it that way. In fact, both people may actually be doing the same thing to each other at the same time. That's why I value understanding people and their differences, in order to not misinterpret other people's intentions.

lirulin said:
I don't like people who expect me to read their minds and anticipate their needs, as if I was for some reason supposed to be thinking about them. I despise passive-aggressiveness. I never lie and I won't be made to = "be someone else and lie to me to make me happy" is the standard demand. I hide nothing, tell the truth, and dislike people who try to tear my "shell" of "coldness" to shreds, so convinced I have to be like them underneath that they refuse to acknowledge that it is my self they are trying to rip apart - and then blame me or diagnose me for not letting go of this "unhealthy mask" to reveal the different person they would rather have underneath, since I am apparently not good enough.
Again, I think this is often an issue of understanding people and an issue of communication. Like the first scenario you mentioned, I think it's possible that someone doesn't understand that their actions makes you feel that they think you're not good enough for them. Of course, it's also possible that they truly think that way. Kind of like the situation discussed earlier.


lirulin said:
Dislike is not an insult - merely incompatibility.
I do think this is something that SFJ's, or at least ISFJ's, need to try to keep in mind, understand, and accept. We have a tendency to take dislike as a personal attack, because we believe that it's something that we've intentionally done in order to cause this dislike.


It's very interesting to see how different types of people can view different actions as attacks. What would bother one person wouldn't bother another, and vice versa.



lirulin said:
In my experience, SFJs do this very very often to me. NFs as well though, sometimes, but the possibility of communication with the exceptions, and existence thereof, has generally been greater.

It sounds like to me that you're very steadfast and uncompromising about both who you are and the standards you have for other people in your life. I certainly could be wrong, but I would imagine that this would work very well for someone who has a strong sense of independence and doesn't feel the need to have a lot of relationships in their life. I say that because I would just find it difficult to find a lot of people who live up to those standards. But perhaps you've found this not to be the case, and if so, as I mentioned earlier, I would be curious to hear about the process in which you both form and keep relationships with people.



I found this post quite interesting because it outlined a lot of the potential misunderstandings and problems between SFJ's and some NT's, in this case some INTJ's. It also serves as a reminder that conflicts will arise and that everyone won't always get along with one another.
 

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Interesting, lirulin. I remember you mentioned elsewhere that you hate Fe. I wondered about that but kind of filed it away rather than asking about it at the time. As an inferior-Fe user, it's something I would like to get better at. I appreciate this trait in others but it can be overbearing with some people. I find it overbearing because it feels like they're placing expectations on me that I cannot meet, and if it seems like they're brown-nosing I don't like that. I don't think I've had the experience of an Fe user turning nasty on me, but I can imagine it. I agree it makes a difference whether the Fe user is S or N, and whether it is used as a dom, aux or tert function.

I think there is an excess of misplaced Fe in our culture. Kids are always told "good job" for the most trivial of accomplishments and there are gold stars and rewards galore. I think people like to be appreciated for their efforts, but this kind of over-rewarding actually hurts performance if people become dependent on external rewards rather than internal motivation.
 

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Interesting. Is this scenario based mostly on your own personal experiences, or have you found that it's something that's common among INTJ's? I ask this because with my two INTJ friends, I think I've seen glimpses of this kind of interaction, but not as strongly as you describe it. Of course, people of a type are going to vary greatly, but I was wondering if the norm among INTJ's is more similar to your experience or the ones I've had with my INTJ friends..
I have found that a lot of it ties into INTJ ways of acting, certainly. But it really depends on how the SFJ would come across - we're not incapable of saying positive things about a person, it's just that there's a tendency to clam up and refuse to meet a person half way if they look like they are demanding it, because that is fucking unreasonable. A number of INTJs also will develop social interaction formulas and add in random stupid praise because they are tired of the bullshit - but the praise still feels like bullshit too, on some level, even when it's true. So the sort of social annoyinig frills can make things go better - it just never feels like a real friendship to me if I have to do that, so I don't. But my friends know that my positive comments therefore really mean something.

I think I've heard various people hold a similar belief before. I think what I've always wondered is how initial interactions with people end up going, how first impressions are formed, and how relationships develop when this is the starting point. For me, I tend to automatically have a respect for someone until they do something to lose it because I don't have anything to base it on when first meeting them. If I don't give it to them, it may be interpreted as rudeness, which would create a barrier in me getting to know who they are and develop a better understanding of how to evaluate them. In addition, sometimes I may have to work with someone for a short period of time, and I've found that if I don't give them an initial respect before getting to know them, it only makes working with them more tense and frustrating.

So I'm curious to hear how you develop relationships with people, particularly upon first meeting with them or collaborating with them. Do you find that your initial attitude makes this more difficult (or at least makes you have to have patience to see whether someone earns your respect)? When you first formed friendships with your friends, did you find them earning your respect easily and naturally, or were their misunderstandings along the way that you had to work past?

In addition, have you found that this has impacted the type of work you prefer? Do you tend to enjoy more solitary work, or have you been able to find people to work with that adhere to your expectations?.
Thing is, lack of respect isn't the same thing as contempt. It's basically neutral - and certain conventions of politeness mean I'm not actually going after anyone or tearing them down, or talking about their faults - just not talking about their virtues or taking them for granted. It's not going to be real respect until it is earned, but I am not advertising this disrespect, which is just a lack and not a negative feeling. Just occasionally they're just so used to puffed up praise and support that my lack immediately feels like an attack or something. And since I dislike interacting with people who impose that expectation on me, it's really no great loss if I piss them off. I guess the difference is that I am after finding people I can get along with - rather than just getting along with people. I'm really very open to respecting people - I try very hard to, often, but they can make it very very difficult. Ni is constantly coming up with scenarios in which maybe they're not as dumb as they appear.

Generally, in developing relationships, I remain stubbornly myself, even advertise the weirder traits, so whoever knows that they are getting into. I find my attitude makes things easier, actually, because I have rarely had "friends" the way so many of my peers do - if someone sticks around, it is because they want to be there. It's not working perfectly, but there is basically no drama, no cattiness, none of that bullshit. To be sure a lot of people can be eliminated quickly - but what eliminates them is their dislike or inability to deal with the basic essence of my personality. I do not see it as a loss.

In work I definitely like to work alone, but I have never had issues with coworkers.

This is another issue where I think it boils down to communication. I think it's possible that one person may think they are treating someone well and the other person doesn't interpret it that way. In fact, both people may actually be doing the same thing to each other at the same time. That's why I value understanding people and their differences, in order to not misinterpret other people's intentions..
Communication is certainly a factor. I think, though, Fi is more about treating people well - Fe more about treating people the way they appear to want, though it is often more self-referential than many users will admit. I don't respond directly to certain expectations, particularly ones I find unreasonable - but I have a code of how to be decent to people that I'll follow even with people I dislike most of the time and in general it's fairly related to what a lot of people would agree with. The real difficulty I find is Fi really imposes requirements only on oneself - Fe on other people. So I find the "solution" to any Fe user usually involves me having to change the way I act - my solution usually involves them recognising what I am doing & building understanding, but some can be very resistant to that. Or they'll say they understand that nothing I am doing is wrong - but still expect me to change. Because Fe generally thinks imposing is reasonable, whereas I think if I have explained the misinterpretation, the person is well able to not make the same mistake and why should I cater my behavioru to avoid said misinterpretation when it is been explained and they have the info? Annoying.

Again, I think this is often an issue of understanding people and an issue of communication. Like the first scenario you mentioned, I think it's possible that someone doesn't understand that their actions makes you feel that they think you're not good enough for them. Of course, it's also possible that they truly think that way. Kind of like the situation discussed earlier..
It's doesn't really provoke any feeling but mild irritation. People who are likely to do that rarely get close enough for their opinion to matter. it's more of a "this is what your action implies" kind of thing - a recognition of a logical connection, not an emotional response. Plus I think most of them that I have met think that way, tbh.

I do think this is something that SFJ's, or at least ISFJ's, need to try to keep in mind, understand, and accept. We have a tendency to take dislike as a personal attack, because we believe that it's something that we've intentionally done in order to cause this dislike.

It's very interesting to see how different types of people can view different actions as attacks. What would bother one person wouldn't bother another, and vice versa. .
Very few things are attacks really, in my view. Usually just misunderstanding or difference. But then sometimes I have to be told I'm being insulted, because it's all "ooh, that's an interesting perspective...but I said it was interesting, why are you mad?"
I'm also quite content to have people dislike me - if we're incompatible, them recognising that and staying away is very functional.

It sounds like to me that you're very steadfast and uncompromising about both who you are and the standards you have for other people in your life. I certainly could be wrong, but I would imagine that this would work very well for someone who has a strong sense of independence and doesn't feel the need to have a lot of relationships in their life. I say that because I would just find it difficult to find a lot of people who live up to those standards. But perhaps you've found this not to be the case, and if so, as I mentioned earlier, I would be curious to hear about the process in which you both form and keep relationships with people.
Forming them is basically "this is me - if you're ok with that, feel free to stick around." I really haven't found it that difficult. Certainly little worked when I was a kid, but grade 5 I started building the group, and usually new arrivals to it tell me how amazed they are I have managed to collect such a weird, nerdy, accepting, and awesome group of people. Certainly I could deal without friends, which makes it easier to have standards - but I have never seen them as high. I just want people who I will get along with, which seems reasonable if I am to consider them a friends. Acquaintances needn't reach the same level of awesome. I really can get along with people I don't much like if they don't start creating drama themselves.
 

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I have found that a lot of it ties into INTJ ways of acting, certainly. But it really depends on how the SFJ would come across - we're not incapable of saying positive things about a person, it's just that there's a tendency to clam up and refuse to meet a person half way if they look like they are demanding it, because that is fucking unreasonable. A number of INTJs also will develop social interaction formulas and add in random stupid praise because they are tired of the bullshit - but the praise still feels like bullshit too, on some level, even when it's true. So the sort of social annoyinig frills can make things go better - it just never feels like a real friendship to me if I have to do that, so I don't. But my friends know that my positive comments therefore really mean something.
What's interesting about this is something I've avoided in this thread so far, and that's the difference between ESFJ's and ISFJ's. I don't like talking about ESFJ's because I don't know any of them personally, only people that I suspect might be ESFJ's. However, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to go by my impressions of ESFJ's.

Because ESFJ's have dominant Fe and ISFJ's have auxiliary Fe, I do think there's a difference in how the two types go about this kind of thing socially. I'm not saying ISFJ's don't ever throw out praise and validation, but I don't think they're nearly as open about it as ESFJ's are. I think my sort of peacemaking actions are a lot more implicit...I'll listen to people to try to understand them, I'll do things for them to make their life easier, I'll be there when they need to talk about a problem, I'll show interest in what they're saying or doing...to me, those are more genuine ways of making someone feel better than just praising them for whatever.

I think ESFJ's have a tendency to sometimes overwhelm people with more outward expressions this positivity, and like Nitou said, in a lot of ways our culture has gone overboard with it. Praise loses its value when it isn't reserved for when it is truly merited.



lirulin said:
Thing is, lack of respect isn't the same thing as contempt. It's basically neutral - and certain conventions of politeness mean I'm not actually going after anyone or tearing them down, or talking about their faults - just not talking about their virtues or taking them for granted. It's not going to be real respect until it is earned, but I am not advertising this disrespect, which is just a lack and not a negative feeling. Just occasionally they're just so used to puffed up praise and support that my lack immediately feels like an attack or something. And since I dislike interacting with people who impose that expectation on me, it's really no great loss if I piss them off. I guess the difference is that I am after finding people I can get along with - rather than just getting along with people. I'm really very open to respecting people - I try very hard to, often, but they can make it very very difficult. Ni is constantly coming up with scenarios in which maybe they're not as dumb as they appear.
Ah, that clarifies things a lot. I think I was interpreting "respect" in a different way than you were. What I was thinking of was more along the lines of politeness and general decency. For example, if I was rooming with someone, I wouldn't touch their stuff or leave my stuff in their way, out of a show of respect. What you were referring to was a much deeper value of someone based on who they were as a person.


lirulin said:
Generally, in developing relationships, I remain stubbornly myself, even advertise the weirder traits, so whoever knows that they are getting into. I find my attitude makes things easier, actually, because I have rarely had "friends" the way so many of my peers do - if someone sticks around, it is because they want to be there. It's not working perfectly, but there is basically no drama, no cattiness, none of that bullshit. To be sure a lot of people can be eliminated quickly - but what eliminates them is their dislike or inability to deal with the basic essence of my personality. I do not see it as a loss.
I always hate to stereotype when it comes to gender, but from my experience I do think there's a difference between males and females with some of this too. I know that when I picture an ESFJ, I usually picture an older, motherly woman. Of course there are male ESFJ's, but when I imagine one, I picture him as having some more of those motherly type qualities

And when you refer to drama and cattiness, once again I tend to think of females. I'm not saying males don't do this in their own way, but it doesn't seem to be quite as constant as it is with women.

So it's possible that gender is something else that's played into our experiences with different types that can have its own implications.



lirulin said:
Communication is certainly a factor. I think, though, Fi is more about treating people well - Fe more about treating people the way they appear to want, though it is often more self-referential than many users will admit. I don't respond directly to certain expectations, particularly ones I find unreasonable - but I have a code of how to be decent to people that I'll follow even with people I dislike most of the time and in general it's fairly related to what a lot of people would agree with. The real difficulty I find is Fi really imposes requirements only on oneself - Fe on other people. So I find the "solution" to any Fe user usually involves me having to change the way I act - my solution usually involves them recognising what I am doing & building understanding, but some can be very resistant to that. Or they'll say they understand that nothing I am doing is wrong - but still expect me to change. Because Fe generally thinks imposing is reasonable, whereas I think if I have explained the misinterpretation, the person is well able to not make the same mistake and why should I cater my behavioru to avoid said misinterpretation when it is been explained and they have the info? Annoying.
I still have a hard time understanding Fe and explaining how I use it. I've read about it in various places, and it came up in an ISFJ topic referring to "mimicking" people.

The simplest way for me to explain how I feel is that it makes me feel happy to make others happy. When I can make someone feel better, or resolve a conflict, or establish peace, it makes me feel like I've accomplished something.

I think the problem with a lot of Fe users is that they do what you said...they treat people the way they appear to want to be treated. And I think the biggest problem here is that people assume that others want to be treated exactly the way that they would. I know as an ISFJ, praise means a lot to me, and perhaps ESFJ's feel the same way. So it's possible that because of that, SFJ's may automatically assume that this will make others happy as well, without understanding that everyone is different.


But as I said earlier, I think ISFJ's aren't nearly as overbearing as ESFJ's. Because of our dominant Si, we're constantly gathering and storing information and using it to make decisions. I think because of that, we can use this information to kind of guide our Fe by understanding people first, and then using that to determine how we treat them.

The problem with an ISFJ is that they may forget to add on to this stored information and just use what's already there. If that's the case, they'll fall into the trap of treating everyone in the same way they always have and not taking the time to learn about new people. This is where an ISFJ can start falling into the routine of mindless praise. But like I said, I don't think ISFJ's are quite as open about it, it's a much more reserved thing.
 
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What's interesting about this is something I've avoided in this thread so far, and that's the difference between ESFJ's and ISFJ's. I don't like talking about ESFJ's because I don't know any of them personally, only people that I suspect might be ESFJ's. However, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to go by my impressions of ESFJ's.

Because ESFJ's have dominant Fe and ISFJ's have auxiliary Fe, I do think there's a difference in how the two types go about this kind of thing socially. I'm not saying ISFJ's don't ever throw out praise and validation, but I don't think they're nearly as open about it as ESFJ's are. I think my sort of peacemaking actions are a lot more implicit...I'll listen to people to try to understand them, I'll do things for them to make their life easier, I'll be there when they need to talk about a problem, I'll show interest in what they're saying or doing...to me, those are more genuine ways of making someone feel better than just praising them for whatever.

I think ESFJ's have a tendency to sometimes overwhelm people with more outward expressions this positivity, and like Nitou said, in a lot of ways our culture has gone overboard with it. Praise loses its value when it isn't reserved for when it is truly merited.
There is certainly a difference - Dom-Fe is much, much, harder to deal with. But even ISFJs - to someone who doesn't do much of that kind of thing, or value it, it seems like a lot. I do much better with my STJ friends, who spoil me rotten but by doing practical things. Someone trying to take care of my emotional state is likely to get a blank stare, at best. And I don't do that - I like my friends to be happy, but I just try doing nice things & their happiness may result, but I am not so attached to that idea as a result that if I get it wrong or they don't outwardly cheer up, it would bother me. They're allowed to have their own emotions. & people trying to cheer me up me makes me uncomfortable - since I'm usually not miserable in the first place, just NT, and because it's crossing a boundary I prefer to respect. Plus it rarely works: usually a healthy portion of "help" from an average Feeler in general is something that mildly annoys me: I can believe in the kind intention, but without ever getting any benefit from the action. And I value them - but to pretend their misdirected action made me happy is dishonest, and not something I feel like I should be pressured into doing, no matter how "nice" it was supposed to be by some other standard. I feel that if they genuinely wanted to contribute to my happiness, I should be allowed to express what works and what doesn't without them assuming I devalue them personally every time I don't fall over myself thanking them for something that was ineffective. I do always value the intention when it is kind - but apparently that's never good enough since I am not praising the action - or not praising the intention enough. So far mutual N has been the easiest way to sidestep that issue but it comes up a lot.

Ah, that clarifies things a lot. I think I was interpreting "respect" in a different way than you were. What I was thinking of was more along the lines of politeness and general decency. For example, if I was rooming with someone, I wouldn't touch their stuff or leave my stuff in their way, out of a show of respect. What you were referring to was a much deeper value of someone based on who they were as a person.
Yeah, definitely. I have no issues with general civility, though it will be still a different definition to an SF view.

I always hate to stereotype when it comes to gender, but from my experience I do think there's a difference between males and females with some of this too. I know that when I picture an ESFJ, I usually picture an older, motherly woman. Of course there are male ESFJ's, but when I imagine one, I picture him as having some more of those motherly type qualities

And when you refer to drama and cattiness, once again I tend to think of females. I'm not saying males don't do this in their own way, but it doesn't seem to be quite as constant as it is with women.

So it's possible that gender is something else that's played into our experiences with different types that can have its own implications.
See, I've never met any of these women, I just hear about them. Except this one ENFJ who attached herself to me for a while. I know those words are attached to gender stereotypes, but the girls I know are not that silly and I doubt it's much of a gender thing really. It seems to be something that belongs to personality types that are so automatically repelled by me that I never get caught up in it. The gender stereotypes thus never really impacted my life. I've had friends post-facto explain that passive-aggressive catty bullshit happened all the time in such-and-such a place and I was so outside it I never noticed or cared to. It is not my world. It is other people who have experienced this cattiness that tend to be the ones who point out the contrast with my group. I've basically never dealt with it.

I still have a hard time understanding Fe and explaining how I use it. I've read about it in various places, and it came up in an ISFJ topic referring to "mimicking" people.

The simplest way for me to explain how I feel is that it makes me feel happy to make others happy. When I can make someone feel better, or resolve a conflict, or establish peace, it makes me feel like I've accomplished something.

I think the problem with a lot of Fe users is that they do what you said...they treat people the way they appear to want to be treated. And I think the biggest problem here is that people assume that others want to be treated exactly the way that they would. I know as an ISFJ, praise means a lot to me, and perhaps ESFJ's feel the same way. So it's possible that because of that, SFJ's may automatically assume that this will make others happy as well, without understanding that everyone is different.

But as I said earlier, I think ISFJ's aren't nearly as overbearing as ESFJ's. Because of our dominant Si, we're constantly gathering and storing information and using it to make decisions. I think because of that, we can use this information to kind of guide our Fe by understanding people first, and then using that to determine how we treat them.

The problem with an ISFJ is that they may forget to add on to this stored information and just use what's already there. If that's the case, they'll fall into the trap of treating everyone in the same way they always have and not taking the time to learn about new people. This is where an ISFJ can start falling into the routine of mindless praise. But like I said, I don't think ISFJ's are quite as open about it, it's a much more reserved thing.
I think NTs are particularly likely to be facing this issue since we're not a little atypical. Really, though I don't want someone interested in making me happy. I handle that myself. Especially a type who always assumes I am unhappy. Plus I don't want someone's happiness to be dependent upon my mood. It's pressuring to somehow be responsible for someone else's happiness, especially when the means to preserve it is so unnatural. I have a right to shift mood when shitty things happen (or simply to have a neutral facial expression/tone of voice) & don't want to be considered responsible for dragging people down simply because they are so weirdly dependent on this odd need to keep me appearing cheerful. I don't have to always be happy and I want to remain aware of the bad things as much as possible, because it is how I remain functional. I find a lot of SFJs will also take it too far - not just enjoying making people happy, but getting depressed if they don't, or don't often enough. That's really hard to deal with. No smile quota please....
 

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I think my experience with sfjs has been tainted. The one I know just happens to be my mom and I doubt she realizes I have the ability to think for myself. Especially, logically forming opinions that go against hers. we clash nearly constantly if we talk or just listen to each other talk to others it definitely begins invoking anger and annoyance. She also has quirks, a lot of quirks, and believes that everything should be suited to her and her beliefs ( and quirks) because "it's right". Dogmatic reasoning / thought and adherence to frivolous physical things causes most clashes. (shes also a hoarder) I think I could get along with sfj's and sj's in general as long as they aren't in charge or hold authority over me in anyway. Essentially where ever their dogmatic thinking can't directly effect me.
 

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I think my experience with sfjs has been tainted. The one I know just happens to be my mom and I doubt she realizes I have the ability to think for myself. Especially, logically forming opinions that go against hers. we clash nearly constantly if we talk or just listen to each other talk to others it definitely begins invoking anger and annoyance. She also has quirks, a lot of quirks, and believes that everything should be suited to her and her beliefs ( and quirks) because "it's right". Dogmatic reasoning / thought and adherence to frivolous physical things causes most clashes. (shes also a hoarder) I think I could get along with sfj's and sj's in general as long as they aren't in charge or hold authority over me in anyway. Essentially where ever their dogmatic thinking can't directly effect me.

I actually think this is something that's quite common, and I think it's a major reason why a lot of N's have problems with SJ's. Because SJ's thrive on structure and routine, they usually establish a lot of strict rules and beliefs when in a leadership role. So if an N has an SJ for a parent, teacher, boss, or other authority figure, they're likely to get choked out by all of the firm structure the SJ imposes on them. This is probably even more pronounced when the other preferences are opposite as well.

Of course, it's not the only situation or reason that causes N's to have problems with SJ's, but I get the impression that it's a factor pretty often.
 

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I normally have problems with SFJ's. It's more of the polite vs pragmatic type of arguement.
 

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I can get along quite well with SFJ's. They can definitely frustrate me, and I can't ever be much more than 50% "myself" around them. But that's not really a bad thing for me, as long as there's some relief.

This isn't making me sound like I get along with SFJ's.

50% of me gets along pretty well with SFJ's, and the other 50% is pretty mellow about taking the backseat.

I don't think there's anything I can tell SFJ's to improve upon. SJ's by definition aren't people you can easily influence and change, no matter how perfect your effort. I would like SJ's to understand the meaning of what I say without me having to spell it out for them. I'd like ISFJ's to remind themselves to perform a bit of a manual override on their Fi when conversing with me, perhaps recalling for more than 5 seconds that I have my own style of communicating and it's never to be taken personally. I've learned not to push change on SFJ's though, and that they come to it on their own over time, if it's going to happen at all. I get along much worse with STJ's.
 
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