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Observations on what happens to SI when people die— written by an Si inferior at age 44.

2K views 28 replies 5 participants last post by  tarmonk 
#1 · (Edited)
My Si dom friend (a very smart girl) had keys to an old man’s house because he trusted her when he was on vacation to water his plants. When he died then HR asked her to see if she could get any of his family info so that they could be contacted. She told me after “Here was all of his stuff and I realized that when you die your stuff doesn’t matter anymore. There were all of these things he loved and no family to give them to and it all meant nothing.”

Now, I think this was a smart revelation to my Si dom friend because of how attached Si gets to certain things and it’s so interesting what is attached and what isn’t and whether those things of value are displayed or not displayed depending on where SI is in the stack.

Even in inferior position the pearl that my aunt once gave me seems like it holds the value that my aunt and her feelings towards me when she gave it to me hold. What I mean is.. even with Si inferior I need to know that pearl is safe in my cute little treasure box that my dad brought me from Germany because my grandma is German under my bed and that pearl makes me know that my aunt loves me... and yeah.... it’s weird, isn’t it? It is so natural we don’t even think about it for those of us on the Si axis... we don’t even wonder why something like this holds value, but on the Ni-Se axis, stuff is just stuff, there is no extra personalization of it from what I understand. Meaning they might wonder why I keep it if I never wear it?

If someone wants you to have something of theirs and they are dying then even if that object is under my bed, it still holds the value of that person and seems important to keep no matter what, even if I don’t use it, I know I have it and it is valuable because it has to do with that person. If someone said we could sell that item then it would feel like disrespecting the person’s memory.

I was talking to my INFP husband about all the family arguments that arose about grandpa’s “stuff” after he died about 10 years ago.

I was telling him that some of these arguments were due to strong Si versus weaker Si in us.

Grandpa a had a saxophone that he had played in WW2 and that my husband had played in high school band but had had on a shelf in a closet for years. Meanwhile, I had been wanting a piano that I would play daily and teach my kids from. My husband thought he would sell the saxophone and get me my piano. I wasn’t sure, but then he convinced me that the value of it would basically carry over (the value of it being from grandpa would go into my piano playing and teaching— yeah, I know, Si is weird even in third and forth position). He happily told this idea to his STJ family and they freaked out, even going so far as to say that they had had a big talk with grandpa before he died about the saxophone and how in his death bed he had talked about wanting the saxophone to stay in the family. Now this can’t be true because he had severe dementia for about 15 years before his death and nobody could talk to him about anything. Also he hadn’t played the saxophone since the army, so it was no big deal to him.

But it’s so interesting this subjective Si. I watched this guy’s video this morning and he was talking about his grandpa’s fire-fighter gear. I said to my husband that if we were in the same position that it would be too much to take and store and I don’t display my Si items much as I’ve already said. My husband said “Could there be a logo that I take off the gear and I could frame it?”

Then my husband said, “When my dad dies there is going to be so much crap to deal with.” So his ISTJ dad collects R2D2 stuff and actually does work at displaying his stuff. My ESFJ son is starting to acquire vinyl records of music and posters that remind him of his friends and of course pictures. But I don’t look at pictures (I can’t stand most nostalgia, or at least for only very short periods... actually I can feel my revulsion coming up right now....) but I need to know that we have these and that they are somewhere accessible.

Si in inferior also often likes looking at geneology and history—the big picture of all the SI. But all the material stuff... it’s just so interesting what happens with Si folks when someone dies and the degrees to which it happens depending on where in the stack the Si falls and also The Si of each person— how some of it is personal to some and not to others, because Si is subjective.

Here is the video that I got the fire fighter stuff from:
 
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#2 ·
I feel like with Fi Si like with NFP, the relationship is a bit different.

Imo SFJs are less sentimental--or at least more organized about it. But a lot of times they aren't prone to the type of silly seeming sentimentalism that INFPs might exhibit more.

Like I tend to feel like going to an estate sale is like going into a museum. I remember one where I went to an estate sale as a kid (idk if it's the same everywhere--but an estate sale is when a dead person's home is opened up and people go through and buy it...like a yard sale...but a lot of times it's set up sort of like how the person was alive).

I found a photo album with the cats in it. I was sort of just distraught, outraged...just a lot of negative emotions going on about how this elderly woman must have loved her pets so much. And how the family had just left that photo album there for sale...like some random person off the street is going to want to buy a photo album full of cat photos.

But of course I wanted to buy it because I Felt I should keep it safe--because it was so personally meaningful to the woman that it felt like a part of her. And it just felt so exposed out there.

So I feel like Si in a tertiary and inferior position can sometimes be quite tricky--I also think it is probably related to Fi that I would feel so upset or almost mesmerized by it, because I don't think NTPs usually have that relationship with Si though they also have a funny relationship with it.

Idk...it's just so sad to me that people love things and then they lose them--the old woman and her life. Her cats. Her family. It just makes it all feel so real and the objects sort of communicate that suffering to me sometimes, almost as if they are haunted or a part of someone.

I've come to think of it in terms of...these objects are more so images or internal images of objects--that is what I am reacting to. So I have lost physical things that meant something to me, and while I sort of want to be able to hold them in my hands and turn them over, and try to examine them to see if there is any new insight I can gain from them (perhaps similar to rumination), I also am okay accepting that they are mostly significant in my mind.

My grandmother's roses--for example. She grew roses and I am sad they are not still growing since she died and someone else lived there at her old house, and they probably redid the garden or something. But I still have a sort of complex of images around roses now, and a significance to me. And I associate them with my grandma.

Sometimes the most honorable thing you can do is to let objects pass away and transform into something new. In that way a rose becomes ready for new associations--it is so many things. Not just my grandma's roses, but it takes on so many symbolic meanings in history. Though I probably do tend to associate them with my grandma the most.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I always think of this and no one has seemed to agree with me--but I think John Keat's poetry is a good example of INFP and tertiary Si playing tricks about eternity and that desire for the ideal that never changes...

But Ne types know that things must always change and it is good--but at the same time there is this conflict with wanting some things to always remain as ideals or just perfect moments of beauty, because they were meaningful to us.

It's a very conflicting kind of obsession.

But like Keat's Ode on a Grecian Urn. Or the Talking Heads "Heaven" explores that tension to me, and the tricks that tertiary and inferior Si can play along with Fi.

Like the lyrics: "Heaven is a place...a place where nothing ever happens." And it's sort of terrifying but it's also sort of idyllic.

I suspect Byrne is an Ne dom but idk...some people think he's an INXJ. But I can see him possibly being ENFP though I haven't watched a lot of interviews.

Maybe it's XNTP--like the Ti/Si idk with Byrne though I think he could be ENFP (and E 5 maybe). But Keats is INFP imo.


Imo Leonard Cohen is more like an INXJ type musician. Idk--I guess Byrne just reminds me of Ne even if it's not.

Another example of Ne/Si conflict inspired music by Byrne--with a more conscious Ne than Si imo:



So I guess it's sort of off topic, though artistic work is a type of "object," in some way--but I feel like Byrn's stuff might be more like "wtf is he going on about" to some Si doms--whereas it's a different way of relating to Si with maybe tertiary or inferior Si...
 
#4 · (Edited)
This example of the cat album is perfect! Yes, I know that feeling... just imagine how strong that guardianship feeling must be for higher Si! And how their guardianship must stretch to much more things. For me a necklace given by an aunt that feels like It is my aunt’s love for me, a few old love letters in my wooden box... and it’s like the things that are Fi-Si important I need to know where they are. My books.. my paints... my old paintings... my harps... I need to know they are okay back in the closet. Same with pictures, I need to know that they are safely saved.

An estate sale is a fascinating thing filled with mysterious meaning and pathos all being traced back to this person who I don’t know... yeah, totally.
And it’s not really symbolism for us— these things are not universally symbolic at all. My daughter’s beloved stuffed cat that got torn cannot just be replaced by another stuffed cat (although I wish it were true because sewing it back together is not going well). It’s more like a horcrux. It really is— that’s the level of it. it is like our care of it/ our relationship with it... well it’s personal.

If someone tried to tell me to sell my pearl I would be so shocked— it’s my aunt’s pearl! She gave it to me! I mean it probably has no worth at all... but remember what someone gives you? It somehow becomes symbolic or horcrux-y about your relationship.

The plum tree that we planted when my Si dom friend died about 6 months after.... it’s so important to me that it bloomed this year and it is so personal to her because we said it was her tree. It’s just weird to people who do t have Si somewhere in the stack and unfortunately for them they are the rare ones so I think my INFJ friend who helped me plant this tree understands to others that it has meaning in that way... but I’m not sure that is true for her herself? It’s so weird and actually foundational for many people and spiritual as well... Si is a spiritual thing.

For us NFPs, yes the tension between Si and Ne can be the basis of so much art. Look into what Greta Gerwig does with it. All of her stuff to date is about that tension between what we are attached to and what we want to learn and explore.

About the musician, I will look into it. Also did you read my thing about MBTI and lyrics, it isn’t light reading but it explains why Leonard Cohen is INFJ and how to tell the difference between NFP and NFJ lyrics. I will thread bump it for you.
 
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#10 ·
There is too much Fi in that, I quess. I often observe it in my INFP friend though - she will keep random items she doesn't even use because they were important to someone or are related to her own important memories. She has a box full of tickets to concerts she went to, a rose she got from her first boyfriend, a dress full of memories she no longer fits in and a bag of rags someone borrowed her a few years before so she make something useful of them (and she even brings the bag of rags with her when she moves apartments - because "they could be important to the person").

I am also king of a hoarder but for me it isn't "it's important to me/someone" most of the time.

I am keeping random old items because old things have certain "souls" to them, as they are no longer produced and they survived so many years, watched some history. If they happen to produce copies of the items it's no longer the same because they are not the original, even if they look the same - I actually hate the new fashion of vintage bikes, but if I found that kind of bike in a deceased old person house I might use it with a pride. Because you know "I got a real bike from the II WW times! I wonder what it seen and what events it participated in, who used it during all the years".

And I am actually a fan of used things because they are practical - they are cheap compared to the factory new ones but still serve their purpose. Giving an used thing a new life is also beneficial for the environment because there is less plastic produced. And if they happen to break it's not a problem because they already "lived long, fulfilling lifes, they had to break eventually". If a new thing breaks it's a "a damn chinese shit!" 😁

I attend a flea marked every Sunday and I often take a walk during the "garbage pick up" day to see what people throw away. Because it's such a waste for perfectly good (or perfectly good after some cleaning/fixing) stuff to get trashed.
I feel pity for the items that could still be used by someone. So if I find something nice I will pick it up, learn about it, fix it if needed and then I will either use it myself, give it to someone or sell it on the flea market.
 
#12 ·
It’s so interesting, isn’t it? I’m really glad to get your perspective. I’m glad you gave these examples of Si with Ti reasons.
 
#13 ·
You mention having Si inferior as a reluctance to look into the past for extended periods of time, preferring to focus on the future and having trouble remembering things from the past. Which is interesting to me because although I can definitely relate to having a poor memory of many of the little, everyday things while having trouble making solid, concrete memories (until fairly recently), having Si in my third slot gives me an almost photographic way of remembering things from the past, as well as using the past to understand my present and to some degree the future as well. I’m not always greatly nostalgic like some other types are, but I can have a hard time letting go of the past, I constantly ruminate about things that happened to me in the past, what I could have done differently, how my life could have turned out differently and so on. I also prefer sticking to what’s familiar to me more than seeking out new experiences all the time. I can’t go for extended periods of having new experiences without time to sit back, reflect, see how it fits into my conscious self-image and decide where the experiences fit into my existing system of values. Maybe it’s different for you having Ne in your first slot.

For me it’s weird because I look a lot into the past and am often drawn to history and themes from the past, but at the same time I’m still trying to make sense of my personal past due to the rough times I grew up in. I don’t have all that many concrete, nostalgic memories of things in the same way as an ISFJ or ESFJ does, for me when I talk about the past I can refer to many specific memories but then I always get into wider associations and themes, patterns rather than looking at specific but not necessarily connected memories. Maybe that’s an N thing?
 
#14 · (Edited)
You mention having Si inferior as a reluctance to look into the past for extended periods of time, preferring to focus on the future and having trouble remembering things from the past. Which is interesting to me because although I can definitely relate to having a poor memory of many of the little, everyday things while having trouble making solid, concrete memories (until fairly recently), having Si in my third slot gives me an almost photographic way of remembering things from the past, as well as using the past to understand my present and to some degree the future as well. I’m not always greatly nostalgic like some other types are, but I can have a hard time letting go of the past, I constantly ruminate about things that happened to me in the past, what I could have done differently, how my life could have turned out differently and so on. I also prefer sticking to what’s familiar to me more than seeking out new experiences all the time. I can’t go for extended periods of having new experiences without time to sit back, reflect, see how it fits into my conscious self-image and decide where the experiences fit into my existing system of values. Maybe it’s different for you having Ne in your first slot.

For me it’s weird because I look a lot into the past and am often drawn to history and themes from the past, but at the same time I’m still trying to make sense of my personal past due to the rough times I grew up in. I don’t have all that many concrete, nostalgic memories of things in the same way as an ISFJ or ESFJ does, for me when I talk about the past I can refer to many specific memories but then I always get into wider associations and themes, patterns rather than looking at specific but not necessarily connected memories. Maybe that’s an N thing?
I think you’re referring to me? I think inferior functions look very different from third. Because fourth functions are suppressed. My INFP husband would describe his SI in tert a lot like yours. Usually INFPs have really good memories and spend tons of time emotionally re-interpreting the past. ENFPs spend less time doing this, there is some repression for me in it at least. Thinking up different scenarios for the past is actually Ne using Si information— right? Ne is thinking of different possibilities whether they are possible futures or possible pasts.

I don’t think I said I have a poor memory of my past, though, personally— did I say so? Do I not remember saying so? Haha. Maybe someone else said that? I do have a weird quirk with memory of other people’s stories (which is probably inferior Si which has to do with chronological order/sequence of events). After I watch a movie or a book, unless it had a real emotional impact on me, it usually does just slide out of my brain (I can watch many re-runs as if they were fresh) but my personal history I remember well and young too. I remember things that happened at age 2 1/2, and not every ENFP describes revulsion for nostalgia with pictures, but honestly it is hard for me. I get really sad with my SI sometimes, it feels stuck. I think most of us have to watch the health of our inferior function. Inferior Te can get super angry/ rejecting at the world for not being more accepting which is ironic, right? My SI can be weird. I think each person’s SI is slightly different and personal (of course) because SI has to do with repeated behaviors and methods/methodical sequences. In general Si usually gravitates to actions having to do with comfort, stability and survival that includes chronological order and experience— but anyway— it is different/personal for each person at each level, dom, aux, tert, inferior.

As for history, many (most?) ENFPs do love it. There is so much to be learned. I am a good researcher and it is one of my favorite things. I write historical fiction and yes I do like thinking of what would happen if Franz Ferdinand had gone down a different road, etc. My husband happens to be a military historian and we pretty much daily are talking about history subjects and possibilities from these and we love it and stories come from it. My ENFP mom is a genealogist and very good at research. The WAY Ne studies the past is to try to find out everything— really everything, which takes time. . Ive met a few ENFPs not interested, but I think after we’ve enmassed at least some history knowledge the interest grows and grows. Honestly, I’m very surprised when I hear an ENFP is not interested in history— somehow I think they will be later or something. How can they not be? They’ve got Ne concepts learned from Si past.

I review my personal past with Fi and Si but not ad Nauseam the way my INFP sister does and not the way my INFP husband does. At some point fairly early on I take a “I gotta move on from this” attitude. But I think it might be because it is more painful to me? It feels stuck and it hampers my Ne. There is a teeter-totter of course and I am analytical and retrospective in order to learn, but I have to do things differently and have new info all the time. Actually I feel a bit trapped just thinking about using it more so…. Or else I just want to feel better/good? Extroversion plays a part in this. My husband had to learn to not spend quite so much time in Fi-SI land. He actually had to work on it… but I think it was harder for him to do that without seeing how it was affecting him and seeing that pushing forward would probably be better. There is pain moving on, pushing forward, there is pain staying there. I think only NFP people would get what I mean by pain— but this is also the source of a lot of our art and stories, novels and movies. The pain between home/identity and exploration/change. Anyway, you get it, I know.
 
#18 · (Edited)
@tarmonk You’re starting to see some of these functions, thats good. This is just the beginning because when you really do understand them then you can find out a lot— a lot becomes visible.

Its driving me a bit nuts because you are really just beginning, yet you are so sure you’re a STJ and I’m pretty dang sure you aren’t. I’ve thought you’re an NTP for a while and from everything lately it seems obvious you’re an INTP. The process of thinking of a known and then reinterpreting— that sounds like Ti then Ne to me. That happens with INFPs as well. My husband has a judgement first, then opens up to learn more. Keep researching.

I’ve written a lot on seeing functions in writing. Ne is definitely visible. All the functions are visible in writing. More so than in a personal interview for introverted functions, I’d say.
 
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#19 · (Edited)
@tarmonk You’re starting to see some of these functions, thats good. This is just the beginning because when you really do understand them then you can find out a lot— a lot becomes visible.

Its driving me a bit nuts because you are really just beginning, yet you are so sure you’re a STJ and I’m pretty dang sure you aren’t. I’ve thought you’re an NTP for a while and from everything lately it seems obvious you’re an INTP. The process of thinking of a known and then reinterpreting— that sounds like Ti then Ne to me. That happens with INFPs as well. My husband has a judgement first, then opens up to learn more. Keep researching.

I’ve written a lot on seeing functions in writing. Ne is definitely visible. All the functions are visible in writing. More so than in a personal interview for introverted functions, I’d say.
There aren't such things as separate functions in mbti context, actually in our minds but models and mindsets are real and this is what also Jung's work seems to rely on.

How else could you find your type better than actually seeing how our mind works and then looking how it matches with theories? :) The latter plus discussing to others who know both me and theories was how I started to conciously see it.

Tbh I don't think+reinterpret things, I just use knowledge and experiences to form my thoughts and there's little to no reasoning from you how you back up your theory about me being intp :) Would be interested in your analysis, Sounds fun.

I must be absolutely blind if I really had any kind of dom/aux N in my mind. But even then friends who know me and theories, would have been pointed it out long time ago. Couldn't relate to Jung's N of any kind either while it's obvious I have Jung's T+S mental model. I created simplified visualization about it which I can send if you want.

Btw what does that thinking + reinterpretation even mean what you suggested?

PS If anybody feels this discussion is too derailing for current thread, we can discuss in any other place. But I'm happy to discuss, feel free
 
#22 · (Edited)
Ah yes, forgot to add that judgement style might affect pretty much how and what kind of information we consider important for storing and remembering, also how it's processed, even If perception is the same. Good proof that those things rarely work totally independently of each other.

My dad seems most likely be some SI+F and the way he processes data, is pretty different from mine - mostly by describing, there's less conclusions and judgements. He's that one who tells stories, mostly from past situations, people and what he's been into it. And this all is incredibly detailed and vivid for him. Sometimes seems even bothering because I don't know those situations and can't imagine, also they aren't interesting due to different background since I moved away after childhood :)
 
#27 · (Edited)
884318


Took it for fun. Like for all tests, unable to tell how accurately and what they measure. But I didn't come to that conclusion about type by taking tests anyway.

If there is any N in my mind, I'm unable to see it, make sense of your examples related to Ne and get any actual use out of it, so it's unconcious. It's a false assumption that tert/inf Are actual tools we conciously and visibly use a lot.

That's also why one can't see me using F - you can't detect Fi thus search for Fe but can't see that either but it's false conclusion it has to be inf Fe then :) Typing from this end doesn't just work.

There's no personal shading in what I write and my emotional state doesn't cloud my conclusions, that's why no visible F. Imagine voice of Morgan Freeman or anyone similar (but with less expressive way) while reading my posts to get better idea :)

If it all put together over my posts in this thread still doesn't make you believe, what can i do about it. But in case you're ready to believe, there's a lot of useful information in those posts to get to know how such person's mind actually works inside not about how it may or may not stereotypically look for outside observer as a result of internal processing.
 
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