[Voodo Chile]

This is a bit of an interesting one seeing as he walked into a classroom, got the students to line up before shooting them...Now from what i hear, there were at least 10 students lined up. Possibly more, 10 got shot, there could have been more who weren't shot but i'm assuming not.
Heres the interesting part. This guy has a .45 calibre handgun. And i thought, well ok, most likely not an automatic weapon, so he cant just stand there and spray bullets. Its a handgun and will only hold a small amount of bullets compared to something with a 20-30 magazine attached to it.
I was thinking that perhaps the students might have been able to overpower him..10vs1.
If they do nothing, they all get shot
If they all try fighting him, some will get shot but inevitably, the gunman will become overpowered.
In theory, is that not true?
And it does sound sort of ridiculous and easier said than done but, trying to disarm him seems to be the less risky option. It seems to me as if everyone just stood there while he was free to do as he pleased.

 

[viva]

I think it's very difficult to analyze situations like these because what you think you would do, or what seems to be the most logical course of action, can vary quite differently from what people do in a terrorizing, adrenaline-filled moment.

Either way, it's incredibly tragic.

 

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

What you say is true. As I recall, there was a high school kid with a gun a few years back and a bunch of the students overpowered him and got his weapon.

The interesting thing to think about here though, this is applied game theory in action. You guys can't all discuss the plan for obvious reasons, and if you go at him first you are almost definitely going to get shot, whereas if you lie back and do as he says, he might spare you. So nobody has an incentive to go at him first. And that's why the group as a whole loses because every single one of them did what was in their own best interest, rather than working together for the benefit of the group. Nobody wanted to risk taking one for the team.

 

[Mutatio NOmenis]

Most people aren't trained to fight or put others above their own safety.

 

[aef8234]

10 people?
A handgun?
Yes someone could've easily overpowered him, but we really aren't selfless little turds now, are we?

 

[bellisaurius]

What you say is true. As I recall, there was a high school kid with a gun a few years back and a bunch of the students overpowered him and got his weapon.

The interesting thing to think about here though, this is applied game theory in action. You guys can't all discuss the plan for obvious reasons, and if you go at him first you are almost definitely going to get shot, whereas if you lie back and do as he says, he might spare you. So nobody has an incentive to go at him first. And that's why the group as a whole loses because every single one of them did what was in their own best interest, rather than working together for the benefit of the group. Nobody wanted to risk taking one for the team.

Kind of an out in the open prisoner's dilemma.

 

[Dark Romantic]

This is a bit of an interesting one seeing as he walked into a classroom, got the students to line up before shooting them...Now from what i hear, there were at least 10 students lined up. Possibly more, 10 got shot, there could have been more who weren't shot but i'm assuming not.
Heres the interesting part. This guy has a .45 calibre handgun. And i thought, well ok, most likely not an automatic weapon, so he cant just stand there and spray bullets. Its a handgun and will only hold a small amount of bullets compared to something with a 20-30 magazine attached to it.
I was thinking that perhaps the students might have been able to overpower him..10vs1.
If they do nothing, they all get shot
If they all try fighting him, some will get shot but inevitably, the gunman will become overpowered.
In theory, is that not true?
And it does sound sort of ridiculous and easier said than done but, trying to disarm him seems to be the less risky option. It seems to me as if everyone just stood there while he was free to do as he pleased.

There would have to be someone willing to coordinate the others to take the risk to ensure the best outcome. Unfortunately, most people are too afraid to take a risk like that, so they end up in greater danger as a result.

 

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

Kind of an out in the open prisoner's dilemma.

Exactly.

 

[aef8234]

Exactly.

Is it sad or pitiful that I would be doing that same exact thing they'd be doing, and still be pissed off at myself?

 

[Coburn]

A handgun is actually a lot more accurate than a semi-automatic, especially when weilded by an amateur. Watching a guy individually point and shoot at people rather than wave a gun back and forth (in the spray fashion) is probably a lot more mentally intimidating.

As @Mutatio NOmenis said, these people were not trained to respond in such a situation. It's unreasonable, IMO, to demand these nursing students have some fight back strategy.

Were their actions cowardly? Not at all. They were simply trying to survive.

 

[Coburn]

There would have to be someone willing to coordinate the others to take the risk to ensure the best outcome. Unfortunately, most people are too afraid to take a risk like that, so they end up in greater danger as a result.

The other thing to be considered is the environment. They were pinned down in a classroom with a guy shooting at them. Not really a situation where someone can say "okay, let's sit down and have a pow wow about the best way to overpower him."

 

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

A handgun is actually a lot more accurate than a semi-automatic, especially when weilded by an amateur. Watching a guy individually point and shoot at people rather than wave a gun back and forth (in the spray fashion) is probably a lot more mentally intimidating.

As @Mutatio NOmenis said, these people were not trained to respond in such a situation. It's unreasonable, IMO, to demand these nursing students have some fight back strategy.

Were their actions cowardly? Not at all. They were simply trying to survive.

Pssst, I think you mean automatic weapon. Most pistols are semi-automatic. :wink:

 

[sprinkles]

From what I read, this is what actually happened:

He ordered students to line up so he could shoot them. Some of them refused to cooperate - he didn't actually get them lined up successfully - he was enraged that they did not cooperate and line up when he asked so he began shooting people randomly, and then went on a rampage through the building.

Maybe somebody could have stopped him but I don't think it matters. The fact that nobody stopped him in this case is not some kind of problem with humanity. A bunch of students should not be expected to fight off a gunman - what we should expect is for people to not go around shooting random other people just because they are angry.

The gunman is the problem, not the people who got shot.

 

[Mutatio NOmenis]

A handgun is actually a lot more accurate than a semi-automatic, especially when weilded by an amateur. Watching a guy individually point and shoot at people rather than wave a gun back and forth (in the spray fashion) is probably a lot more mentally intimidating.

The handgun was semiautomatic. Are you referring to a rifle? Those are much easier to use than handguns.

 

[Staffan]

I think the interesting question is why this happened at all. It doesn't happen much outside the US, occasionally in Europe and hardly ever on other continents.

 

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

The gunman is the problem, not the people who got shot.

I don't think anybody is arguing otherwise. It is more of a "Running Scenarios" type of thing than a "It is their own fault" argument. :wink:

I think the interesting question is why this happened at all. It doesn't happen much outside the US, occasionally in Europe and hardly ever on other continents.

That's just what the liberals want you to think so they can paint Americans as bloodthirsty gun nuts. We don't hear about them because they happened in other countries. Just a few weeks ago there was a school shooting in France...

French police in mass hunt for school killer - Europe - World - The Independent

As you can see from the following list, while we seem to have a disproportionately high number of school shootings, they are by no means unique to America...

School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Staffan]

That's just what the liberals want you to think so they can paint Americans as bloodthirsty gun nuts. We don't hear about them because they happened in other countries. Just a few weeks ago there was a school shooting in France...

French police in mass hunt for school killer - Europe - World - The Independent

As you can see from the following list, while we seem to have a disproportionately high number of school shootings, they are by no means unique to America...

School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find it hard to understand what your position is. Are you denying that it happens more often in America than elsewhere? And if so why the Wikipedia article? It only confirms the disproportionality.

 

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

I find it hard to understand what your position is. Are you denying that it happens more often in America than elsewhere? And if so why the Wikipedia article? It only confirms the disproportionality.

In a nutshell, my position is that yes it happens more in America, but it happens everywhere and a lot more than most people realize.

On another note, they have been happening for a lot longer than people realize. There have been school shootings for as long as there have been both schools and guns. So most of the nonsense that people say that causes these things simply isn't true. For example, obviously videogames aren't the cause of school shootings, when school shootings predate videogames by centuries.

 

[Staffan]

In a nutshell, my position is that yes it happens more in America, but it happens everywhere and a lot more than most people realize.

On another note, they have been happening for a lot longer than people realize. There have been school shootings for as long as there have been both schools and guns. So most of the nonsense that people say that causes these things simply isn't true. For example, obviously videogames aren't the cause of school shootings, when school shootings predate videogames by centuries.

True, videogames is an unlikely explanation. But given that it happens so often in the US and other western nations it seems like the answer must be found there. People always say gun laws but that's also unlikely. Sweden has had no school shootings and yet even the mentally ill can get their gun licenses here.

 

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

True, videogames is an unlikely explanation. But given that it happens so often in the US and other western nations it seems like the answer must be found there. People always say gun laws but that's also unlikely. Sweden has had no school shootings and yet even the mentally ill can get their gun licenses here.

I think the problem most people make with statistics is that they don't realize that there will always be one group that is higher or lower in the statistics, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all besides random chance. They do this with all sorts of things, and it is usually ridiculous. For example, if you were to poll 100,000 people on their favorite flavor of Kool-Aid, you may find that people who like grape Kool-Aid the best are 5 times more likely to be criminals than people who prefer the other flavors. It doesn't mean that there is some underlying correlation between liking grape Kool-Aid and crime. Likewise, you may find that people who like orange Kool-Aid the best are least likely to have a degree in Mathematics. It doesn't mean that math departments are discriminating against them, or that they are too stupid to understand math, it just means that the numbers have to fall somewhere.

But people don't realize this, so they always have some silly theory about the underlying cause, even if that theory doesn't reflect reality. In this case, one country HAS to have more school shootings than others. It would be virtually impossible for them to be equal, either exactly equal in number of shootings or equal number of shootings based on percentage of population. And most of the little theories to describe why the US has higher numbers have been thoroughly debunked. School shootings have been happening for centuries before videogames were invented or before Marilyn Manson was born. Other countries have these things also. Likewise, some other countries have a lot of guns too but few school shootings, whereas some countries with crazy gun bans still have school shootings of their own despite having very little access to guns.