[Resolution]

Recap, my room-mate is an ESTP who lately... has been turning more and more into an asshole.

We had another prolonged debate. This time he told me that it was perfectly okay for someone to support banning people from having anal sex, while having anal sex in secret. (The woman we were talking about was a woman he had sex with a few weeks ago, and she dumped him)

Not only did he say it was okay, but he said that such people have integrity. He added that me saying that such people lacked integrity was a personality flaw of mine.

Okay this is where I really started wondering what in God's name my ESTP room-mate was thinking. So I ask for clarification. His response:

"Because if you looked closely enough when they say they don't have anal sex and that it's morally wrong, you can tell they're lying."

My head nearly exploded. I said, "What if they vote to ban anal for everyone?". He responded that a single vote doesn't matter.

He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity.

Me: "But that's just a huge lack of honesty, which is just as bad as a huge lack of integrity." He seemed to ignore this point.

I pointed out that his argument was ludicrous and challenged him to try selling his case to any sane person in the world. He then refused to do so, and admitted that any sane person would agree with me. Yet, he continued to attack my beliefs and every time I argued him into a corner, he would repeat this, and then say that he was wrong, and that he didn't mean what he was saying, only to digress back to attacking me again and again.

Finally, he resorted to saying that there was no such thing as morals (In reference to my objection). But at the same time, argued that this girl (The one who sparked this) was moral.

I pointed out his obvious flaw in logic, and he wouldn't admit he'd made the flaw, and ignored it. Then I proceeded to tell him that if there was no such thing as morals that people should be able to run around raping and murdering and that such an act would be right.

He agreed that this was true, and that if someone could get away with raping and murdering, that they should. I threw my hands up in absolute frustration and reminded him that minutes before, he'd claimed to have "many times more empathy" than I did.

At the end, he told me the whole thing was a joke, but I was reading his face the whole time. HE WASN'T JOKING! He was defensive and serious.

What in God's name is wrong with ESTPs and how can I get him to freaking stop?

 

[nikkii]

the title made me laugh a little

 

[penchant]

Ouch... this thread will be interesting to follow... (no offense) :crazy:

 

[elissabowden]

i know how you feel. my roommate is an eSfP. i can't stand her. then i bought this book about personlity types ("Please understand me two") and found out that there are two things we use in communication. words and tools. NFs use their words and tools abstractly, and SPs use them concretely. unfortunately, these are the only two types who can't understand each other. 100% can't understand anything. they're objective in life is to bring art to the world, ours is to take a stance on what is morally right or wrong.

this is, of course, coming from the perspective of an NF. struggling with another SP.

another thing...SPs..well they like to win all the time. they don't value morals as we do. which is why we're the ones who are all "world peace, love, world peace" and they're the ones going "art! creativity! make! create!!" you get the point.

 

[nikkii]

side note: Sometimes people just say shit even knowing they are wrong because its easier to think another way because they the lack the good traits of the right way of thinking or just to piss you off. there are many options. Just don't let it get to you. you know what's right and wrong.

I have a ESTP brother so I understand what it's like they can be funny but sometimes they are just downright..gross. He a prefect example of someone who can treat you like shit yet you still want to talk to him. he doesn't hide but I have only seen true empathy with him when he talks to his kids or kids in general.

 

[Daveman]

"He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity."

This is a funny argument. I might say something like this to someone as a joke.

I've always liked the liar paradox.

"Everything I say is a lie including this statement."

Anyway, you're right; he's wrong. It's hypocrisy.

 

[Resolution]

"He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity."

This is a funny argument. I might say something like this to someone as a joke.

I've always liked the liar paradox.

"Everything I say is a lie including this statement."

Anyway, you're right; he's wrong. It's hypocrisy.

The whole time I was looking... almost desperately for a sign that he was joking.

He really believed the garbage that was spilling out of his mouth and he really believed he had a basis to attack me. It was almost astounding.

 

[DJArendee]

Recap, my room-mate is an ESTP who lately... has been turning more and more into an asshole.

What ESTP isn't?

We had another prolonged debate. This time he told me that it was perfectly okay for someone to support banning people from having anal sex, while having anal sex in secret. (The woman we were talking about was a woman he had sex with a few weeks ago, and she dumped him)

Not only did he say it was okay, but he said that such people have integrity. He added that me saying that such people lacked integrity was a personality flaw of mine.

Hahaha... I'm sorry but that is such an ESTP thing to do. Try to keep in mind, ESTP's talk out their ass, I rarely take anything they say personally, they're just love to think out loud, and their opinions can very easily be changed.

Okay this is where I really started wondering what in God's name my ESTP room-mate was thinking. So I ask for clarification. His response:

"Because if you looked closely enough when they say they don't have anal sex and that it's morally wrong, you can tell they're lying."

He is simply explaining how Se works to you.

My head nearly exploded. I said, "What if they vote to ban anal for everyone?". He responded that a single vote doesn't matter.

I gather he's being logical. As important a meaning a single vote has to you, he doesn't understand and only sees the math.

He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Me: "But that's just a huge lack of honesty, which is just as bad as a huge lack of integrity." He seemed to ignore this point.

I pointed out that his argument was ludicrous and challenged him to try selling his case to any sane person in the world. He then refused to do so, and admitted that any sane person would agree with me. Yet, he continued to attack my beliefs and every time I argued him into a corner, he would repeat this, and then say that he was wrong, and that he didn't mean what he was saying, only to digress back to attacking me again and again.

Finally, he resorted to saying that there was no such thing as morals (In reference to my objection). But at the same time, argued that this girl (The one who sparked this) was moral.

hahaha... an ESTP with morals? You'll just have to nod and smile... or teach him to feel morals.

I pointed out his obvious flaw in logic, and he wouldn't admit he'd made the flaw, and ignored it. Then I proceeded to tell him that if there was no such thing as morals that people should be able to run around raping and murdering and that such an act would be right.

He agreed that this was true, and that if someone could get away with raping and murdering, that they should. I threw my hands up in absolute frustration and reminded him that minutes before, he'd claimed to have "many times more empathy" than I did.

uh, as far as the empathy goes, I'm not sure what he meant by that. ESTP's like to talk shit. In fact any time an ESTP says "I'm better than you," that's an ESTP being competitive... after all, they're the most competitive of all the personalities. It shouldn't be taken seriously, in fact it should be taken as a challenge and your response should be something along the lines of, "Empathetic? boy you aint got SHIT on this!"

At the end, he told me the whole thing was a joke, but I was reading his face the whole time. HE WASN'T JOKING! He was defensive and serious.

Haha, he was messing with you. ESTP's are the masters of body language buddy. I'd say he was just trying to rile you up. Its all fun and games to them. They're very manipulative.

 

[Daveman]

The whole time I was looking... almost desperately for a sign that he was joking.

He really believed the garbage that was spilling out of his mouth and he really believed he had a basis to attack me. It was almost astounding.

Somehow this would make me laugh at him more.

I think you should try not to get too upset about the situation, if possible.

 

[Resolution]

"He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity."

This is a funny argument. I might say something like this to someone as a joke.

I've always liked the liar paradox.

"Everything I say is a lie including this statement."

Anyway, you're right; he's wrong. It's hypocrisy.

Somehow this would make me laugh at him more.

I think you should try not to get too upset about the situation, if possible.

I told him I was going to ask a few of our mutual friends so they could tell both of us which one of us was full of shit.

He urged me not to.

I then told him that if didn't have the balls to stand behind the things he'd said about my moral compass, that I expected a prompt apology.

He apologized (With extreme insincerity) and then told me "Okay, now you can go calm down." Then he snuck out of the room, and had a secret dinner with one of my better friends.

I asked him if he had just told her his side of the debate... and he looked right into my eyes and lied to me and told me he hadn't (I can tell).

So I muttered "Well I'm going to ask her if she's heard about our situation and if you just lied to me, expect that I'm going to tell her the entire story." At the moment I'm restraining myself (smoldering, hidden anger) he's trying to win me over with incessant situational humor.

 

[Staryu]

@ the OP,
ESTP is your shadow type, it is only natural that there will be some conflict. as others have said on here, try not to take things personally, he doesn't mean to direct any of his stuff at YOU [total assumption here, but still], but is rather just "thinking out loud" as DJArendee said. he doesn't realize the effect his words have on people.
one of my closest friends is an ESFP. i know..INTJ and ESFP, how in the world do we get along? she's always criticizing me for being too "boring, never wants to have any fun, insensitive, unemotional, etc." and personally I think she's missing out on a lot by not trying to make a difference or even caring about why her world is the way it is. i used to see that as a flaw of hers, but i have certainly learned to be more accepting.
she's an awesome person, if you're feeling sad, she'll drop everyhting to help you, she loves people, all over the place, and is really kind, considerate, and caring. she's also extremely tolerant, and i like that about her.
it's great to work out ur differences, it makes for a great friendship!

 

[DJArendee]

Its definitely a growing experience for the two of you.

ESTP: impulsive ravenous dog
INFJ: morally righteous being

Perhaps you can learn to see the fun that he sees in things, while at the same time teach him why its important to be morally cognizant.

Its the same relationship between ISTP's and ENFJ's. ENFJ's are always ratting on us to be nice, and we're always making fun of them for being stupid. Both parties are wrong, and until both parties decide to learn something from one another, they will repel.

 

[elissabowden]

Okay okay, not to burst the whole INFJ bubble here, but the whole point of knowing our types is to understand oursleves (for NFs) and to understand other people, no?

this is just another way of thinking for people. it's their cognitive process. SPs may or may not have the same morals as us. it's just, they don't put an emphasis on it as we do. that's our job. that's how WE work. you just have to understand that we will never understand SPs on a level as we relate to the other types. and we should NEVER be with an SP. God so help the NF that does that one.

Anyway, I'd say ignore it. we are the moral compass of the world. we can make an impact and then, the SP will follow. is what they do best HAHA

 

[vel]

i know how you feel. my roommate is an eSfP. i can't stand her. ...

Interesting. Both INFJ-ESTP and INFP-ESFP relations in socionics are labeled as conflicting: partners might experience slight fascination in the beginning but relations mostly end up in conflict where each has capacity of hitting the other person's weak points very well, thus both can really hurt each other.

Anyways what you're seeing in your roommate is expression of a twisted form of introverted logic - he "logiked" his way into certain really strange things being true, especially those things that are being beneficial for him. Additionally, he may be resentful of you and is just saying whatever bullshit to try and get under your skin, flipping arguments, basically he is just trolling you for his own satisfaction. I would just ignore him and not have any major discussions with him as clearly he either has porridge in his head or he getting a high out of this.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

Recap, my room-mate is an ESTP who lately... has been turning more and more into an asshole.

We had another prolonged debate. This time he told me that it was perfectly okay for someone to support banning people from having anal sex, while having anal sex in secret. (The woman we were talking about was a woman he had sex with a few weeks ago, and she dumped him)

Not only did he say it was okay, but he said that such people have integrity. He added that me saying that such people lacked integrity was a personality flaw of mine.

Okay this is where I really started wondering what in God's name my ESTP room-mate was thinking. So I ask for clarification. His response:

"Because if you looked closely enough when they say they don't have anal sex and that it's morally wrong, you can tell they're lying."

My head nearly exploded. I said, "What if they vote to ban anal for everyone?". He responded that a single vote doesn't matter.

He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity.

Me: "But that's just a huge lack of honesty, which is just as bad as a huge lack of integrity." He seemed to ignore this point.

I pointed out that his argument was ludicrous and challenged him to try selling his case to any sane person in the world. He then refused to do so, and admitted that any sane person would agree with me. Yet, he continued to attack my beliefs and every time I argued him into a corner, he would repeat this, and then say that he was wrong, and that he didn't mean what he was saying, only to digress back to attacking me again and again.

Finally, he resorted to saying that there was no such thing as morals (In reference to my objection). But at the same time, argued that this girl (The one who sparked this) was moral.

I pointed out his obvious flaw in logic, and he wouldn't admit he'd made the flaw, and ignored it. Then I proceeded to tell him that if there was no such thing as morals that people should be able to run around raping and murdering and that such an act would be right.

He agreed that this was true, and that if someone could get away with raping and murdering, that they should. I threw my hands up in absolute frustration and reminded him that minutes before, he'd claimed to have "many times more empathy" than I did.

At the end, he told me the whole thing was a joke, but I was reading his face the whole time. HE WASN'T JOKING! He was defensive and serious.

What in God's name is wrong with ESTPs and how can I get him to freaking stop?

LOL, you can't.
ESTP's only morals are as follows:
Big fish eat, little fish.

He's also a serial liar isn't he? While also claiming to be honest?

 

[nikkii]

Anyway, I'd say ignore it. we are the moral compass of the world. we can make an impact and then, the SP will follow. is what they do best HAHA

lol, It's true.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

What ESTP isn't?




He is simply explaining how Se works to you.

Or to put it another way he could tell the girl was lying so it became a challenge to expose the lying whore.

 

[DJArendee]

we should NEVER be with an SP. God so help the NF that does that one.

Anyway, I'd say ignore it. we are the moral compass of the world. we can make an impact and then, the SP will follow. is what they do best HAHA

You couldn't be any more uninformed.

 

[pinkrasputin]

I don't think it's just an ESTP thing because I understand his reasoning and have done similar things my self. I have purposely frustrated the heck out of Fe users just so I could get them to take a look at their own reasoning.

Recap, my room-mate is an ESTP who lately... has been turning more and more into an asshole.

He doesn't sound like an asshole to me. He sounds like he made your Fe boil, though.

We had another prolonged debate. This time he told me that it was perfectly okay for someone to support banning people from having anal sex, while having anal sex in secret. (The woman we were talking about was a woman he had sex with a few weeks ago, and she dumped him)

It is okay. He is not concerned like you are about objective consensus. He is looking at the individual reasoning for publicly banning and then doing something else in private. They have nothing to prove to you. How does this affect you? I bet that's when you pulled out the old "They could vote" card, right? What state is this an issue, btw?

Not only did he say it was okay, but he said that such people have integrity. He added that me saying that such people lacked integrity was a personality flaw of mine.

Well I'm guessing he meant that you are living by other people's standards instead of your own. I probably means that people who stick to their own standards have more integrity.

Okay this is where I really started wondering what in God's name my ESTP room-mate was thinking. So I ask for clarification. His response:

"Because if you looked closely enough when they say they don't have anal sex and that it's morally wrong, you can tell they're lying."

Right. He doesn't need a societal standard to tell him whether something is "right" or "wrong". He can tell if they are lying so that is all that matters. Honestly, he may not have even really cared about the subject you guys were talking about, he was just challenging your reasoning through and through. The more you jumped to "outside standards" the more he used his Ti.

My head nearly exploded. I said, "What if they vote to ban anal for everyone?". He responded that a single vote doesn't matter.

Hahaha. Are you absolutely positive you weren't getting a little too emotional so he just teased you a bit? I really have done this type of humor before. Just because it's sometimes enjoyable to watch people's head explode. Especially when they are already getting excited about something I could really care so little about.

He then proceeded to tell me that, unlike him, I had very little empathy and that if someone's true nature was to lie, and they lied all the time then that was a statement of integrity.

I don't think he is showing you how he really believes. I think he is showing you his logic. It's easy to do when you can see a person getting so excited about you being "unorthodox". Can you see his logic? It's very individual. But you can see what he's saying, right?

Me: "But that's just a huge lack of honesty, which is just as bad as a huge lack of integrity." He seemed to ignore this point.

I pointed out that his argument was ludicrous and challenged him to try selling his case to any sane person in the world. He then refused to do so, and admitted that any sane person would agree with me. Yet, he continued to attack my beliefs and every time I argued him into a corner, he would repeat this, and then say that he was wrong, and that he didn't mean what he was saying, only to digress back to attacking me again and again.

He wasn't attacking you. You took it that way. You just couldn't recruit him to your side or your way of thinking. You were trying to use ethics to justify your claims. He doesn't need to use your ethics to justify his claims. Do you see? And yes, he probably didn't really believe half of what he was telling you, but it was fun for him to keep holding firm to his Ti. It challenged you, didn't it?

Finally, he resorted to saying that there was no such thing as morals (In reference to my objection). But at the same time, argued that this girl (The one who sparked this) was moral.

Come on. You can understand what he was saying within context, don't you? This girl was "moral" (had standards, virtuous). But he doesn't believe that there are morals (there are no absolutes, social ethics are arbitrary rules).

[I pointed out his obvious flaw in logic, and he wouldn't admit he'd made the flaw, and ignored it.

you didn't point out an obvious flaw in his logic to him. He was using the word differently in each case.

Then I proceeded to tell him that if there was no such thing as morals that people should be able to run around raping and murdering and that such an act would be right.

He agreed that this was true, and that if someone could get away with raping and murdering, that they should. I threw my hands up in absolute frustration and reminded him that minutes before, he'd claimed to have "many times more empathy" than I did.

He probably does have a lot of empathy. He probably has standards. But I think he is showing you over and over that he doesn't need outside rules to stop him from raping and murdering. I also think he was allowing you to sink yourself in your own logic, ie the "rape" argument.

At the end, he told me the whole thing was a joke, but I was reading his face the whole time. HE WASN'T JOKING! He was defensive and serious.

Are you sure you weren't the one defensive and serious? In my experience, INFJs have projected onto me a lot. They thought a conversation was emotional when I was using my T the whole time. It felt like a walk in the park to me but to them we had some emotional world war. They've even told me "you were pretty upset" and I was like "I was????" because I was actually pretty detached the whole time and having fun. So obviously, they were the ones who were upset because nothing was further from the truth when it came to me.

What in God's name is wrong with ESTPs and how can I get him to freaking stop?

This is not just about him being an ESTP. I also don't see anything wrong with your roommate. But I think you should stop trying to shackle him into your way of thinking. It won't work. All those "morally right" arguments are only going to push him further along Ti mode and his claims will seem more and more outrageous to you. Just let it go.

With him, I would examine more of his behaviors rather than his words. You'll understand better the person you have living with you. You are getting worked up over silly semantics. Look instead and see if he is raping and killing women. Didn't you say that he was just dumped? And was he still defending this woman to you? I think he is probably more caring and loving than you know. Don't judge him by his words. Judge him by his actions. When someone has deep inner values, they tend to see outside rules as "pointless", especially if they feel like they are forced to adhere to them. It feels like we have to put on training wheels when we already know how to ride a bike.

I also don't think it was the right thing to do to start judging this woman. INFJs will often push me into the direction of defending a person who has hurt me because I don't care for them ripping down others. My perceiving mode likes to take in information and not make snap judgments about others. Especially if those snap judgments are inaccurate. People aren't 'black or white'. If a relationship doesn't work out, it's not because "they are bad/I am good".

 

[Bright Laughter]

I think it's using tricksy meanings of words and not what was obviously implied. A power play of sorts, maybe to get out of a corner.

BTW, am I misunderstanding what empathy means?

Sympathy - "I feel for ya dude, I really do"
Empathy - I'm actually, literally, feeling your pain. Ouchie mama, stop...it hurts. (or in other cases, joy, etc.)

Because if someone actually has empathy the way I understand it, (and you don't deaden it) - it's harder to treat a person like the ESTP was treating the OP...because you literally feel the pain you are inflicting on the other. So, the point about the ESTP having more empathy than the OP - while he's doing what he is doing - is what is laughable.

But, it's understable if you don't have empathy (or it's greatly repressed), to misunderstand the two as being the same thing. But I promise you, they are not. If you felt the bullet wound every time you shot someone, I assure you it wouldn't be so amusing.