[niki]

How many of you think that Capitalism is wrong, or even more, sickening?

On this recent time, I've been active in this website called The Suicide Project - Tell your suicide stories
(and wouldn't it be surprising to know that many of them have tested as INFP !)

and then there's post like this and this, and actually many other posts (& comments) there with similar veins,
and I myself even posted my own similar thoughts there.

Bottomline is, it just saddened me that many people who're suicidal are actually GOOD, sincere, honest (and usually also quite smart/intelligent to see past the BS, and also usually Highly-Sensitive Persons), that can't seem to put-up with living in 'the System' anymore...

But really, I want to hear your thoughts regarding Capitalism.
with the global financial crisis nowadays, and all current events with the economy & politics these days,
what do you really think about Capitalism?

And last but perhaps more importantly, how do you cope/deal with 'the System' so far in your everday, daily life?...can you still able to stand it?...what do/did you do with (or perhaps to 'avoid') it?

and as a closing, here's a picture that I've found that illustrates about Capitalism:

would love to know your thoughts.

 

[xezene]

Not a fan of capitalism. It is a system that promotes fear, distrust, and evil. And much suffering.

"Profiteers are cowards! This is because they only think in terms of gain and loss, rather than honor and shame. They can think in no other way, and this causes them to see death as the ultimate loss and life as gain. They therefore cling to life at all cost and become cowards. Some try to hide their cowardice by spouting off circular philosophies based on bad values. Learn to see people for what they really are." -- Hagakure, by Yamamoto Tsunetomo (The Book of the Samurai, 18th century)

 

[thefall]

I also dislike capitalism.

 

[Lad]

It's a little bit of a troublesome topic that most people could talk about forever. I think I've beat it to death ad nauseum in the past though, but for a quickie response...

It seems like capitalism "works," but naturally at the expense of others. These other people can be impoverished nations which actually facilitate slave labor in some cases, while closer to home, it can simply be the homeless people on the street ( needing more police, jails, courts, lawyers, general exploitation, minimum wage, etc).

Personally, I'm a little more inclined to lean towards a model of Social Democracy which controls major public interests, but still has elements of a competitive nature.

 

[wanderingone]

Hmm... i've thought about this quite a bit, as i imagine most people have who spend their time thinking about why society is so messed up. my thought is that it's not necessarily capitalism itself that is the root of the problem. capitalism is great because it allows people to specialize their skills, and pay for the things they don't do themselves. it is however an extremely exploitable system. so, my beef lies with the folks who see a way to work the system and profit at the expense of others. originally it was a tool for sharing work, and sharing goods, in a way that they retained value. (value is a bit of an edge word also however..) but it's become a means of getting something for nothing, a way of making everyone else support those who are in control of the system. the way it looks to me, is that abuse of the system, as has gone on for years, and only seems to get more cunning and manipulative, can not go on indefinitely. the motion of the global economy is one that emphasizes short term gains for a small percentage of people, and this intention shakes the stability of the whole thing. eventually we will tap out our resources. so, in the grand sense, the problem is people who wish to exploit... if we didn't have capitalism, they'd exploit whatever was in place instead... look at russia and china.

for myself, i interact with capitalism only as much as i need to, and the longer i live, i find i need less and less from it. i live in a state that is generally opposed to the global economy, and values local production of everything. people around here don't very much respect excess... which is a sharp contrast from where i grew up. i make and spend very little money, and i work a job that i enjoy, despite the fact that it pays far less than other jobs which i have been offered and am capable of doing. i do think it's a positive thing to be payed for what you do well, and to pay for the things you want and need. every time i spend money though, i think twice about it... "am i being indulgent? do i really need this? if i purchase this, who is affected?". i think a lot of people really do have the impression that making more and spending more will always be good for them, which i don't believe to be true. but more importantly, i doubt they consider the impact of their money handling on the rest of the world. people shop at walmart, people buy luxury cars, people have $15M houses.... none of these have an overall positive impact, but we're raised to think it doesn't matter. competition in capitalism is what makes everything work, but what are we competing for? i think we're taught that we compete for the most money, the "best" (translated: most affluent) lifestyle. in reality we should be competing to produce the best product, and to leave the best mark on the world.

that bit about suicide struck me though... the universe presents us with challenges for us to learn from them. suicide is just saying, "i don't want to learn now". you'll still have to eventually though. folks who believe that the end of your body is the end of your life will disagree, but to me, that is not how the universe appears to function. capitalism is a strange entity, but ending your life because of it is a bit superficial no? everything that plagues us is a chance to make a change. giving up is certainly a change, but it doesn't move anyone forward. i think it's our job to act on behalf of the universe as a whole... having that perspective with respect to capitalism or anything else yields a completely different set of possibilities, and suicide is simply a delay (or a regression even?)... certainly not an escape as those who try hope it will be.
</ramblingmess>

 

[Dyidia]

What economic system would you propose?

I think, regardless of what economic system is used in major developed countries, there will always be starving children in underdeveloped areas. The problem, I think, is not giving opportunities to those who are less advantaged, but I don't think just trying something other than capitalism will do much good in the long run.

 

[Girl in the Sky]

I'm definitely not capitalism's biggest fan, however, many attempts to create an alternative to capitalism ended... badly. (soviet russia, communist china, nazi germany.) The way I see it, no matter what form of government/economy you pick corruption is always going to weasle it's way in and screw eveything over. The only way to eliminate corruption would be to have a system so stringent that it stifles any form of originality to the extent of one of those contemplative sci-fi novels about the future where everything is the same and the thought police are searching for errant thought patterns or giving people pills to keep them from expiriencing love. So now I sort of tolerate it as a lesser evil.

 

[Django]

i reccomend for any INFP looking for an ideal political system
to have a good look at social democracy
people first capitalism, a endevour to root out all of the injustices by changing the system:crazy:

 

[J Remi]

Rant time.

I think extreme capitalism is wrong or any ideology related to getting rid of policies that moderate and keep in check the worst of capitalism while keeping the playing field leveled, and a more even wealth distribution system since there shouldn't be people should have all this excess money/production that they'll never use, and horde it all to themselves. GREED IS NOT GOOD! I don't care what anyone says, if anyone tells you that, is just that. Materialism is not everything, don't believe the hype! Its sad because it works, but at the same time it hurts. Economic freedom does not always mean being free. I don't call being a wage slave or poor, and constantly looking for food and shelter freedom to be honest, and no I am not lazy, but if you look at the dynamics, some countries in the world has a live to work mentality that is pushed on people that work to live (like me). It all ties into that wage slavery I was talking about.

I am not a fan of capitalism myself as it promotes the worst in human nature, but I am not into Marxism or any state Socialist/Communist ideology as it always leads to a one party dictatorship that promotes a phenomenon known as state capitalism featuring an authoritarian oligarchy that controls the means of production, and the people on an individual level. Their families and themselves comes before the whole population in those situations, just like businessman/businesswoman that has a me first attitude just because I run things. Social Democracy is where is at for me. It has been shown to work, so there is no need to look further unless you want to be a radical and try to repeat history.

As for underdeveloped countries, most of them have opportunities to grow on there own, but they are riddled with political corruption and war. They get all this aid, but it ends up going into the pockets of the officials that request it. That is why I am weary about giving aid to 3rd world countries that improved only little in the past decades. The best thing you can do for them is find a means for them to be educated, that is the only thing I can think of.

 

[JerseyDevil]

I like and dislike capitalism. It is not the be-all, end-all, but it serves many great purposes for non-essential needs. People can get rewarded both by their hard work or their ingenuity. Everyone has a shot. I like the fact that I can start and run my own businesses and try to make it on my own. I think everyone has a personal responsibility to themselves to an extent. Not every starting point is fair but we need competition to drive innovation, and giving everyone everything is just going to make us all worthless. Plus we haven't really found a great alternative to capitalism yet. I think bad people in the world will ruin any system, so we can't blame capitalism for the poor morals and actions of a select few.

Beyond that, on top of all the innovation capitalism allows for it, it also allows for us to have such an incredibly diverse society. Between that and the power of the internet, you can always find people who are interested in the same things you are, products that you personally would like, places you would like to go, etc.

On the other hand, I'm quite a social democrat and believe lots of services should be socialized. If we need to pay taxes anyway then they ought to go towards making life easier for all of us. I really envy Europe and really want to move there. But it is worth noting that while Europe might be a better fit for me, America still is the world superpower for a reason.

 

[AliSquirrel]

Oh boy, here we go...

Have any of you ever read anything by Daniel Quinn? Do so immediately if you have not.

Anyway, I am constantly frustrated by this debate because it doesn't get to the root of the problem. My problem with society stems not from the political or economic systems being employed but from the values that give rise to them. Capitalism, Socialism. They are the same thing as far as I'm concerned. They are idealistic systems that would work if every human being was perfect and carried the systems out perfectly. But human beings are not perfect. The only system that will work perfectly is one in which human beings are able to be, simply, human. This becomes more difficult as the scale becomes larger. What we need is the localization of control, not the expansion of it. I am a Tribalist. I am anti-globalization.

Capitalism, Socialism, Democracy, Oligarchy. These systems get more corrupt, more destructive, the larger they get. We are living within an Empire. What we must do is begin living within our communities. When we give the Empire no more control over our communities, we lessen its power over other communities, ultimately bringing it down from the inside. But the first step in that process is to educate our communities about their rights as human beings to make their own choices about how they want to live.

Our communities are ours. They belong to us. Not our political or economic systems. We can choose the systems we employ within our communities based on how we as individuals interact. But these systems chosen by the millennia of warped evolution of a self destructive culture should not dictate how we as individuals interact.

Ok, rant over. Not sure if I got my point across... Read "Ishmael" and "Beyond Civilization" or really anything by Daniel Quinn.

 

[xezene]

Read "Ishmael" and "Beyond Civilization" or really anything by Daniel Quinn.

"Ishmael" is a very good read. Powerful ideas outweigh the extremely simple format. I would also recommend it to those who are interested in this kind of thing.

 

[The Great One]

How many of you think that Capitalism is wrong, or even more, sickening?

On this recent time, I've been active in this website called The Suicide Project - Tell your suicide stories
(and wouldn't it be surprising to know that many of them have tested as INFP !)

and then there's post like this and this, and actually many other posts (& comments) there with similar veins,
and I myself even posted my own similar thoughts there.

Bottomline is, it just saddened me that many people who're suicidal are actually GOOD, sincere, honest (and usually also quite smart/intelligent to see past the BS, and also usually Highly-Sensitive Persons), that can't seem to put-up with living in 'the System' anymore...

But really, I want to hear your thoughts regarding Capitalism.
with the global financial crisis nowadays, and all current events with the economy & politics these days,
what do you really think about Capitalism?

And last but perhaps more importantly, how do you cope/deal with 'the System' so far in your everday, daily life?...can you still able to stand it?...what do/did you do with (or perhaps to 'avoid') it?

and as a closing, here's a picture that I've found that illustrates about Capitalism:

would love to know your thoughts.

I believe full-heartedly in capitalism. I mean, I want to get as much money as possible. However, when capitalism makes people suffer, that is where I draw the line on capitalism. Perfect example, there a capitalist named "George Pullman" that was such a capitalist that he would allow his employees to be paid so little that they would literally suffer and couldn't feed their families. Money could never mean THAT MUCH to me. You can read more about Pullman here....

George Pullman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you want more info google, "The Pullman Strike".

 

[SenhorFrio]

fuck capitalism. greed and self interest. i am a communist!

 

[AliSquirrel]

fuck capitalism. greed and self interest. i am a communist!

So... tyranny and jingoism?

 

[SenhorFrio]

So... tyranny and jingoism?

thats stalinism-no...you don't understand the system is perfect, it's people who fuck it up
need i remind you this is the idealist forum!

 

[AliSquirrel]

the system is perfect, it's people who fuck it up

Haha, you defeat your own point. If a system can be fucked up by people, then it cannot be perfect.

need i remind you this is the idealist forum!

I am an idealist, I just value logic. Therefore, my ideals need to make sense.

Not trying to be a jerk, I just have a lot to say on the subject.

 

[xezene]

This isn't going to sound practical at all (it isn't), but the best system is no system.

You will never find a perfect system.

 

[AliSquirrel]

This isn't going to sound practical at all, but the best system is no system.

Anarchy?

I don't believe in entropy. I think that nature tends towards order, we just may not understand it. Were all systems of government and trade to be eradicated (Hallelujah!), I believe humanity would revert to our natural state of being, which is tribal communities.

 

[xezene]

Were all systems of government and trade to be eradicated (Hallelujah!), I believe humanity would revert to our natural state of being, which is tribal communities.

Fine by me! :tongue: