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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #1
I want to understand the Reinin dichotomies better
and figured that creating a thread for that purpose is in order.
I have a basic understanding of them, but feel that I could learn more.
I'd like to work myself systematically through them
and have selected Judicious/Decicive as a good starting point.

This is not an attempt to take a particular stance,
so feel free to share whatever point of view seem relevant.
With whatever arguments that naturally follow.

Reading up on it, it seems to have to do with relaxation and mobilization.
And the decisionmaking process this entails.
Being a Se/Ni type is a requirement for Decisive types
just as being a Ne/Si type is a requirement for Judicious types.

The main driver of decisive seem to be Se as it is strengthened by extroversion.
While the main driver of judicious seems to be Si as it is strengthened by introverion.

It seems that these types are aware of different processes differently.
Any thoughts on this?
 

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Try this for your understanding.

Decisive - Judicious
Symptom tracking methods directly (active, effective) and indirect (of abstract, expectant) included in the solution of actual problems:

1. Decisive - the benefits of timely action ("Late reason, we must act!")

2. Judicious - the timely discussion of the benefits ("There is nothing I will not take as long as we do not all sit together, do not discuss our problems, not to talk about their everyday concerns").

Resolute and reason intuitively and sensor:

Decisive ("victimization") Intuit speaker characterized by their ability to provoke aggression ("call the fire itself"), "punch", and then to reflect the impact, while ensuring that the special benefits for themselves.

Judicious ( "infantile") Intuitive-STATIC directly - often quite hard, aggressive (and childish infantile) methods: whims, scandals (logic), reproaches, boycotts (ethics) - forcing a partner to take care of yourself.

Judicious ( "careful") sensorika speaker directly watch over their partners - initially seek to impose its tutelage. Aggression (as an attempt to restrain, discipline) is shown in response to the resistance of the partner provided him care.

Decisive ( "aggressive") sensorika-STATIC initially seek to rein in (disciplining) of their partners. Marking is served in the form of encouragement.
 

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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
@DavidH
That is an interesting point of view.

From this I guess one could sort it like this.
Aggression lvl 1 and victimization lvl 4: SEE and SLE
Aggression lvl 2 and victimization lvl 3: ESI and LSI
Aggression lvl 3 and victimization lvl 2: LIE and EIE
Aggression lvl 4 and victimization lvl 1: ILI and IEI

Careful lvl 1 and infantile lvl 4: SLI and SEI
Careful lvl 2 and infantile lvl 3: LSE and ESE
Careful lvl 3 and infantile lvl 2: EII and LII
Careful lvl 4 and infantile lvl 1: IEE and ILE

I do this ordering mostly to make myself comfortable with the concepts.

The consequences of this are many.
And my head is bursting with some of the implications.

It adds new meaning to the Judicious relaxation part.
Where they rather just bicker over the benefits rather than dealing with the world directly.
I often feel like work to be done is met with considerable resistance from these types.
I want to get going, while they sort of just try to talk about it until no more can be said.
Hopefully they have talked the burden onto someone elses shoulders by then.
This is of course very generalized and a lot of other things play in,
but I can see the pattern.

I'm of course biased towards the decisive side of things myself.
But, since I'm a "victim" I rather observe the effects of things before I strike.
Many times I have considered action wasted energy,
as I don't see any benefit likely to arise from it.
But when I do strike, I have usually staked layers of benefit on top of the action.
I don't like having just one agenda with an action, if makes me feel nude.
I want to at least to have two reasons, then if the first goes,
then at least I have the benefit of the other.
Of course, I often suffer the effects of the environment when it does not go my way.
Probably why it is called victim.
 

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Yeah some dude posted an article about all of them on here. If you search "reinin" it should be on page two.

I don't use this dichotomy to be honest with you hahaha

Keep in mind that when a description talks about one of the reinin, its talking about the Social not the Private. Private will be reversed.
 

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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #5
I found the thread, thx! :)
(Posting it here as reference)

Keep in mind that when a description talks about one of the reinin, its talking about the Social not the Private. Private will be reversed.
I'm not aware of this Social vs Private.
Can you elaborate?
The words was only used once in the thread, so unsure if you got it from there.
 

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Yeah that's it

Oh my bad. Basically the top half of Model A is Social/Mental/Conscious and bottom half is Private/Individual/Vital/Auto. Point is that if some one seems very "aggressor" in the social setting, then they'll act "infantile" in a private or intimate setting. I don't think that article goes into all of them, but if I remember correctly it does talk about this flip flop for the aristocrats and democrats.
 

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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #7
Oh my bad. Basically the top half of Model A is Social/Mental/Conscious and bottom half is Private/Individual/Vital/Auto. Point is that if some one seems very "aggressor" in the social setting, then they'll act "infantile" in a private or intimate setting. I don't think that article goes into all of them, but if I remember correctly it does talk about this flip flop for the aristocrats and democrats.
Ah yes that stuff.
I looked at that a while ago.
Guess I will have to read up on it again in this context.
Will post a rant post on how I see it connecting, once I have had the opportunity.
 

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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #11
Keep in mind that when a description talks about one of the reinin, its talking about the Social not the Private. Private will be reversed.
So what you are saying is that as long as the mental ring functions are used,
the reinin holds, but as soon as the vital ring is used it is reversed.

As an ILI then Ni, Te, Fe and Si is then working on the Victim/Careful side.
The victim role being one of confidence and the careful being one of self-doubt

And then the Ne, Ti, Fi and Se is then working on the Infantile/Aggression side.
Infantile being unconscious and aggression being a childish trait.
 

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They're all childish by colloquial usage of the word.

If you read the descriptive articles of types, you can see the reinin and the reversals included in the descriptions.

Case in point with typical masculine type men: Become babies when it's meal time or they're sick hahaha
 

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Heretic
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Discussion Starter #13
They're all childish by colloquial usage of the word.

If you read the descriptive articles of types, you can see the reinin and the reversals included in the descriptions.

Case in point with typical masculine type men: Become babies when it's meal time or they're sick hahaha
I meant in the sense that Ego-block was confident, Super-ego-block self-doubting,
Super-id-block childish and Id-block unconscious.

That would make all types childish, but in different areas.
I.e. they would have a childish approach to whatever is in their Super-id-block.

I guess the aggressors would be the victim, the caregivers would be the infantile etc.
So yeah the tough guy acting like a baby etc.
That is ironic, but also not very accurate.
Too many dynamically moving parts in a way.

Instead of having a behaviouristic frame of being-sick/meal-time.
One should rather view it as something that can be triggered during stress/ritual situations.
But it isn't like a script that must happen.
If I've learned anything on this board is that people have these dependent views on typology.
And screen for a limited subset of traits when typing, and try to fit people into too rigid and inflexible molds.
I used to do that myself, I pegged a SEI male as an LSI,
because he had lots of tattoos and worked out every day.
Looked like a real badass until I had some conversations with him.
He was the biggest pussycat I've ever met.
The irony was deep like mountainsnow in winter.

Btw, where can I find the articles in question?

 

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Also, it would appear you are describing a left ring social progress type for your male friend, not a right ring social progress type.
 

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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
An attempt to sort this new information with one example:
Obviously the pattern continues over to all types.

ILE
Ego-block: Ne/Ti (Infantile), Self-confident
Super-ego-block: Fi/Se (Aggressive), Self-doubting
Super-id-block: Fe/Si (Careful), Childish
Id-block: Ni/Te (Victim), Unconscious
 

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Heretic
ESI 9w8 5w4 2w1
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Discussion Starter #17

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Heretic
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Also, it would appear you are describing a left ring social progress type for your male friend, not a right ring social progress type.
I'm unfamiliar with this left-ring/right-ring thing and social-progress.

At the same time she is light and elegant and can remain the same until very old age.
I'm uncertain how serious I can take articles that claim EIEs can't gain weight...

EDIT:
Ah the left and right rings are the rings of benefits and supervision apparantly.
I'm unsure how this applies to the description of my former SEI classmate.
 

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An attempt to sort this new information with one example:
Obviously the pattern continues over to all types.

ILE
Ego-block: Ne/Ti (Infantile), Self-confident
Super-ego-block: Fi/Se (Aggressive), Self-doubting
Super-id-block: Fe/Si (Careful), Childish
Id-block: Ni/Te (Victim), Unconscious


Maybe a different word for Id block? Doesn't fit in with the other 3.

You mean these?

I'm uncertain how serious I can take articles that claim EIEs can't gain weight...
Hahaha well I was referencing their behaviors. I have no opinion on the physical looks characteristics at this time.

Red Magician said:
I'm unfamiliar with this left-ring/right-ring thing and social-progress.

EDIT:
Ah the left and right rings are the rings of benefits and supervision apparantly.
I'm unsure how this applies to the description of my former SEI classmate.
 
Some quotes on rings of social progress:

VV Gulenko [4] , who considered the differences between the right and left rings of social progress: the right is more lenient in social interaction, at distant psychological distances, but more rigid in personal communication, while the left, in turn, are soft on close psychological distances and more rigid and uncompromising at long-distance, social psychological distances.



At the same time, the opposite movement of information flows in the right and left rings of social progress is well illustrated. This design reflects the ratio of information volumes of the right and left. Individuals of the right ring of social progress operate with a larger information volume, they are more inert and consistent, forming an evolutionary ring of social progress. Individuals of the left ring of social progress operate with a smaller information volume (but more energy), they are more reactive, less consistent and less stable in relation to the destabilizing situation, more inclined to extreme actions or behaviors (an involutionary , or revolutionary , ring of social progress). As one of the consequences, the smaller information volume of the left, and finding them in the inner contour of the socion, the left ring looks like "egocentrism" in comparison with the "collectivism" of the types of the right ring. In turn, the right ring, because of the smaller energy volume, tend to save energy, effort and resources, spending them only as needed.



At the level of ethnosocionics, this is clearly seen when comparing, for example, the United Kingdom (integral type LSE - the right ring of social progress) and the United States (integral type LIE - the left ring of social progress). If the style of Great Britain is conservative, moderate and gradual, then the USA is extremely active and eccentric in its essence ("America - for Americans") style of activity, and consumption of more resources and energy per capita compared with most countries in the world. At the same time, the necessary information volume is maintained by "brain drain" from all countries of the world in the USA, since the information volume of this ethnos (unlike the energy content), being left to itself, tends to decrease. In the countries of the right ring of social progress, the situation is reversed and has the self-sufficiency of the information volume and the tendency to narrow the energy-related volume, which is compensated by the functioning of an open economic system.


You appeared to be describing the psychological distances in relation to left ring social progress for your friend.
 

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Heretic
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Discussion Starter #20
Maybe a different word for Id block? Doesn't fit in with the other 3.
Yes I know, but the Id-block is unconscious,
it is more a rehash of the properties of the blocks more than anything.
I used this page as a template.

Socionics - the16types.info - Model A: Blocks of the Socionic Model of the Psyche

Hahaha well I was referencing their behaviors. I have no opinion on the physical looks characteristics at this time.
Yes the physical typing seems suspect at best.

You appeared to be describing the psychological distances in relation to left ring social progress for your friend.
Maybe, I'm not familiar with this way of viewing Socionics.
And it seems to be a side issue in terms of the Judicious/Decisive dichotomi.

If I retry sorting it I may be able to catch the essence here.

Aggression ego-block
Victim super-id-block
Infantile
superego-block
Careful id-block
SEE, SLE, ESI, LSI

Victim ego-block
Aggression super-id-block
Careful superego-block
Infantile id-block

LIE, EIE, ILI and IEI

Careful ego-block
Infantile super-id-block

Victim superego-block
Aggressive id-block

SLI, SEI, LSE and ESE

Infantile ego-block
Careful super-id block
Aggressive superego-block
Victim id-block
EII, LII, IEE and ILE
 
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