[Inveniet]

I want to understand the Reinin dichotomies better
and figured that creating a series of threads for that purpose is in order.
I have a basic understanding of them, but feel that I could learn more.
I'd like to work myself systematically through them
and have selected Merry/Serious as the next.

This is not an attempt to take a particular stance,
so feel free to share whatever point of view seem relevant.
With whatever arguments that naturally follow.

Reading up on it I find that it has to do with ability to notice the emotional background.
Yet another points to an inclination to raise the system over the individual or vice versa.
The system being the what the emotional background is there to preserve?
I think that this is one I could need some input on, as I realize I do not fully grasp it.

You are welcome to chime in here too @DavidH

 

[DavidH]

You may as well post the appropriate information from that article.

 

[Inveniet]

You may as well post the appropriate information from that article.

Well I did mention it in a nutshell, but here goes.

Subjectivism - Objectivism
Symptom monitors formation of subjective and objective priorities in the system (society)

1. Subjectivism - the dominance of the subjective opinion on objective facts. Denial or manipulation of objective facts in favor of the dominant belief system, concepts (example: scholastic skepticism: "The eyes and ears - false witnesses"); the dominance of system restrictions on the rights and properties of the person ("the system interests above all else"). Conscious and immediate struggle for a place in the system (in the family, in the hierarchy in the team), a conscious repression of its system of unwanted elements ("extra" and "weak" links).

2. Objectivism - the dominance of objective factors of subjective opinions ("better to see once than hear a hundred times"); the dominance of objective rights and the individual properties of the system constraints ("rights of the individual above the interests of the system"). Unconscious mediated struggle for a place in the system unconscious mediated repression of the system (from home, from family, from the hierarchy of the team) it unwanted elements ("extra" and "weak" links)

I'm however struggling more to see the connection to this, this time.

 

[DavidH]

Hahahaha well as opposed to Wikipedia, which boasts high accuracy, people do appear to trash out wikisocion

 

[Inveniet]

Hahahaha well as opposed to Wikipedia, which boasts high accuracy, people do appear to trash out wikisocion

I agree that the wikisocion seem to be of lesser quality in this case.
However some of the information seem to be useful for my task.
Namely charting out the Reinin and being able to deal with it more easily than up to now.
From the descriptions it seems that this dichotomy has to do with Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti.
So the mention about the emotional background is probably not completely unwarranted,
although it is firmly biased in a Fe frame of thinking.
As if Fe is the main skill and you either has it or not.
The system approach might be better then, but I'm still not satisfied with the presentation.
It seemes flawed in comparison with the more elegant presentation the Judicious/Decisive had.
I think I should try to continue this thread until I have resolved that issue somehow.

 

[DavidH]

Yeah, its kinda the whole "which came first the chicken or the egg?" Either deal with character flaws first or later

 

[Inveniet]

Seems like I need to introduce new terminology to get the level of accuracy I need.
If someone have already done this, please let me know so I can adjust it.
I chose to make it simple and just use subjective/objective with reason and story.
Ti = Subjective reason
Te = Objective reason
Fi = Subjective story
Fe = Objective story

The reason goes without mention.
The story is the difference between "the story of me" vs "the story of us".
I think that is a major difference in this case.
Which leads to the difference between accepting the system as primary vs the individual.

"Subjective story" ego-block
"Objective reason" super-id-block
"Subjective reason" superego-block
"Objective story" id-block
SEE, IEE, ESI, EII

"Objective reason" ego-block
"Subjective story" super-id-block
"Objective story" superego-block
"Subjective reson" id-block
LIE, ILI, SLI and LSE

"Subjective reason" ego-block
"Objective story" super-id-block
"Subjective story" superego-block
"Objective reason" id-block
SLE, LSI, LII and ILE

"Objective story" ego-block
"Subjective reson" super-id block
"Objective reason" superego-block
"Subjective story" id-block
EIE, IEI, SEI and ESE

 

[DavidH]

Ah, looks like you got Fe and Fi backwards in first part. Fi is objectivist and Fe is subjectivist.

In my opinion its more like Merry is hey lets all get along and then weasel the bad ones out, and serious is like hey lets only invite the good ones.

 

[DavidH]

We vs I seems more like Democrat vs aristocrat

 

[Inveniet]

Ah, looks like you got Fe and Fi backwards in first part. Fi is objectivist and Fe is subjectivist.

It may be a poor label to use, I did not get it wrong,
however as it is a subcategory of Merry/Serious aka subjectivist/objectivist it can be confusing.
The problem is that too many labels are thrown around, I will try again.
Maybe personal in place of subjective and collective in place of objective would help ease some of the confusion?

This is a visual representation of how I was thinking earlier.

"In my opinion its more like Merry is hey lets all get along and then weasel the bad ones out, and serious is like hey lets only invite the good ones.

I can see where you are going with this and the emerging behaviour in question.
However still the presision of the dichotomies without subcategories are unacceptable.
Hence I somehow need to get good labels.
I guess in some ways there need to be a much better understanding in order to point to the relevant behaviour.
Maybe it isn't enough with personal/collective either.

Might need to sleep on this until tomorrow, bed is waiting.

 

[DavidH]

Well thing about Ti is that it takes the physical stuff and is like hey we're all here so let's group up. Fi is like hey we all have this story so lets physically meet. Don't forget that the subjective, or introverted, is a convergence of external realities, whereas objective is what is put out as a reality.

Merry is like the military. Everyone can sign up, but if you can't hack it you get cut.

Serious is like a corporation. Only the best can join, because the rest don't get the chance.

 

[Inveniet]

Well thing about Ti is that it takes the physical stuff and is like hey we're all here so let's group up. Fi is like hey we all have this story so lets physically meet. Don't forget that the subjective, or introverted, is a convergence of external realities, whereas objective is what is put out as a reality.

Merry is like the military. Everyone can sign up, but if you can't hack it you get cut.

Serious is like a corporation. Only the best can join, because the rest don't get the chance.

Right now I see it more clearly.
How does this sound to you?

Fi = Story glue (I have experienced that too)
Ti = Reason glue (We match in these ways)
Fe = Story exclusion (You are messing up our storyline)
Te = Reason exclusion (You don't fit the standard)

 

[DavidH]

I guess, but sounds kinda goofy using those words

How about emotional cohesion and physical cohesion. Or you can use concept of inclusive/exclusive.

 

[Inveniet]

I guess, but sounds kinda goofy using those words

How about emotional cohesion and physical cohesion. Or you can use concept of inclusive/exclusive.

Right, the label matters little as long as it is correct.
To make it more in style with Jung I guess we could do it like this.

Value inclusion = Fi
Value exclusion = Fe
Reason inclusion = Ti
Reason exclusion = Te

I guess I'm done with Merry/Serious then.
Over to Democratic/Aristocratic.