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Opinions, help, etc. (INFJ/INTJ relationship)

5258 Views 37 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  warweasel
So, here's the deal in a nut shell. I am (severely) INTJ and have been seeing an INFJ girl for about 2 yrs. We've had many struggles, but we always seem to pull through. This past 4 or 5 wks, however has been rough.

The current situation is as follows; We were messaging two Saturdays ago and I abruptly had to leave to care for a sick pet. (As in, I thought I need to make an emergency vet visit sick.) I explained the situation & said I had to go. (At this point, we'd been talking for... about 4+ hrs) I left to take care of my business, which was several hours & went to bed afterwards as it was the wee morning hours by this time.

I received a message the next day that said she wouldn't be around Sunday evening or Monday morning... she didn't state why, I assumed she was busy/tired. I assumed we'd just hook up again on Tuesday morning.

Later Sunday, I was browsing forums and I found a post that she had made, that was directed toward me (she knew I'd find it) and that she thought I was being dishonest and that hurt and that she was very mad.

And I had no damned idea what she was talking about... and it made me angry because she's got all this going on in her head and she doesn't tell ME, but instead avoids me & posts about it in a public forum where she knew I would find it.

For a few days there was very little conversation between us because we were both angry at one another. Eventually, after I sent her an email, I got one in reply that stated the reasons that she was angry with me. The reasons are below:

*That night you started saying about all the time you weren´t going to be here (because you were going to see your friend and then because of the training) The "all the time" she is refering to is me saying I might hang out with a friend (as opposed to being with her) that I hadn't hung out with in a couple of months, on Saturday. And the training is mandatory for my job. We could still have our time that week, but only in the evenings.

*We just came back together after a fight and things were odd and I got really hurt last time but instead of spending more time with me, you were taking that time away from me (You were talking about all the time you weren´t going to be here but you never talked about the time we were going to be able to spend together,I couldn´t understand why you were doing that) We had just had a fight 2 wks prior, which revolved around me not looking for her on Twitter while I was posting about the possibiilty of being blown away in a tornado. (It was 0130, I had no reason to believe she'd even be awake) She was upset that I tweeted a friend who's town was hit by a tornado to see if he was ok and that I replied to someone who asked about me, but didn't look her up. (Once I saw she was on Twitter, I talked to her too, but I honestly had other things on my mind. The weather, obviously.) And so that turned into a whole thing. Again... "all the time" she's talking about here is a Saturday evening and the time I will be gone for training. I told her about these things because I thought she would want to know. I didn't list every day that I would be around because that's ridiculously impractical since it's every day, except the ones mentioned.

*Then you saying that night that you could live alone in a cave and that you didn´t need anything else but your little guys, your internet and your camera.......(and all I could think about was......"it is true! he doesn´t need me!") I'm an INTJ and this was a hypothetical comment made during general conversation. I still have no idea what this has to do with anything at all, to be perfectly honest.

*and then I started thinking about all the times you pushed me away and how much that hurts and I just wondered how many times that would happen and how much that would hurt and my brain was a mess and......my brain was telling me, yelling me that I was an idiot because I was willing to stand that behavior...... All the times I push away are 99% of the time when I have to deal with personal drama on my end. (Typically involving death) I cannot process such things with an audience... I seclude, I process & then I'm done. Again, this is not new behavior and it's not going to change. It is inherently who I am & she knows this... and yet, reacts poorly to it all the time. We actually had a fight when I was trying to deal with 3 deaths in a short time frame. Two suicides (a family friend for 40 yrs & a youth at my job) and the death of a family member. My processing, if I'm left alone to it, typically takes 2 to 3 days... then I'm done with it. So, we're not talking significant time.

*you always are complaining in our time together, because of one thing or another but you never say you´re happy to spend that time with me. I will give her this. As an INTJ, time is my most valuable commodity (it's the only thing I can give you that I can never get back) and I don't give it away freely. If I spend time with you, it's because I'm happy to do so. I forget that as an INFJ she needs to hear the words. (And the complaining is general complaining, not complaining about the relationship, for the record.)

*then you said, suddenly, that you should go and you left, and I stayed here, left alone, wanting to help, wanting to be with you and for you but you.......you didn´t need me.... Yes, I did and I said why I needed to do that. (Sick pet) If she chose to stay there by herself, that was her choice. She knew I was leaving & not coming back. As for wanting to help and me not needing her... there was nothing she could do and no, I didn't need her. Not at that specific point in time anyway.

I spend every week day morning & evening with her, most every Saturday evening and every Sunday evening. To me, her reaction to having to stop talking with her (after we'd been talking for over four hours) and her anger over the things she stated above are just... it's all bizarre to me. It is, in my opinion, ridiculously over dramatic. (Melodramatic?)

Right now, this relationship is at the breaking point. I'm not sure I want to continue fighting this same battle over and over and over again, especially when it constantly seems to crop up any time I already have my plate full with personal issues to deal with, such as death... to me, in my INTJ brain, it is like she is jealous of the "situation" (whatever it may be) that's taking our time together away and that she then creates a fuss out of thin air so that the attention can be redirected back to her. (If that's the case, let me say it works.)

So, INFJ kids... is this normal INFJ stuff or is this a huge over reaction on her part? Or somewhere in the between? (Or am I just a huge INTJ douche who's getting it completely wrong?) I have to ask you all, because... I can't see anything in what she says other than absurdity and drama. And she believes that I'm dismissing her feelings.

Thanks in advance for any and all comments, opinions & what not.

War
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I think maybe (on your part) you might want to stop complaining when you are with people. Just for future reference. Life's too short, and it doesn't help anything, usually. I say this as an old lady who's been around.

For her part, she seems a bit immature. If she needs something from you, she should state so, or stop worrying about it.

I can't tell, not knowing you both, how this relationship will end, but it sounds like so many others...if you want it to work, get together in real life and work it out. Not through messages--it's too easy to misinterpret something.

I say all this as an INFJ who has INTJ tendencies...

I hope this helps. I don't mean to come off badly, but it's pre-coffee.
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This is how I picture most INFJ/INTJ relationships turning out. You obviously care about the girl if you took this much time to write all that. You have to stop asking if she is being overly dramatic. Some INFJ will need emotional support and INTJ are the last kind to give it. You have to logically fix the problem with kind words, gifts and actions. Remind her that you are not a liar. That she means more to you then anyone else. That you may not always see the things you do that may upset her and that you wish she would tell you so you can logically fix the issue.

The truth is she is being dramatic and that is because she feels you are being distant or don't care about her. She is putting up defenses to avoid being really hurt. Make it easy for her to talk to you. Go out of your way to make her happy.

My best friend is an INTJ. In all his glory and brilliance, he is still the most closed mind fool I have ever met. Not to say you are but he does not see the world of feelings. If I had an issue that I needed to talk out, he would be the last person in the universe I would talk to. I'm sure if I had tears on my face, he would ask if it was raining outside or if there was a leak in the apartment. /facepalm
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I used to be like her. I recognize my past self in her actions and behaviors, described by you. She comes off as needy and selfish. This is just immature and insecure behavior on her part. She means no harm, but her world is made up entirely of you, so when you're not at her beck and call, she feels insecure and thus feels a need to control something (you, the situation, etc.). When she can't, then she becomes passive-aggressive. Her emotions are controlling her and negatively affecting your relationship with her.

I don't know what you can do to stop the bad behaviors, but at the very least tell her what's bothering you. It'll probably piss her off or hurt her, but she at least needs to know the effects of her actions. She'll also need some time and space to process the information you give to her and rethink her behavior.

I used to be like this with my exes. My last ex broke up with me for being this way. Somehow I grew out of it. We are happily dating again though. :)
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It sounds as if she is a bit imbalanced and this is manifesting itself as being possessive and overbearing. Shes absolutely displaying INFJ qualities but as @daydr3am stated they are the qualities of an immature and insecure INFJ. Having battled with these issues in the past myself I can tell you that if she does not take the time to face her "dark side" so to speak she will not be able to change this perspective and the relationship is surely doomed. HOWEVER luckily for her, she has a mate (you) who is focused on improving bad relationships simply by nature of personality so there is HOPE. Perhaps you can help her to learn about herself so that you both can grow together. Not only will this come off as caring to her (if presented properly) but it will also help improve your relationship overall.
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Sounds like she wants to be a bigger part of your life and wants to be the person you confide in. All these major things happening in your life and she isn't apart of any of it.
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So, INFJ kids... is this normal INFJ stuff or is this a huge over reaction on her part? Or somewhere in the between?
um. yes. both.

i'm sorry you have to go through this... your girlfriend sounds terribly similar to myself and a situation i have recently been in (the ENFP i was seeing suddenly began spending less time with me - but he'd literally stop talking to me for weeks unless i contacted him first... and when i asked him to make a bit more of an effort because it upset me he'd get upset and give excuses but nothing ever improved, it was hopeless and my needs were unmet). she is afraid of losing you, of being unwanted, that you are disconnecting from her and leaving her unrequited. she grapples silently but because of this fear, a low emotional hum in the background, every little thing that doesn't reassure her in some way points toward this inevitible conclusion that you really don't care for her at all - a kind of confirmation bias.

ask her what she wants, straight up. she'll tell you.

just don't withdraw. she's trying to gouge you for a response - either reassurance, or confirmation that you really DON'T care. deal with this as quickly as you can - really.
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Sounds like she's being passive aggressive with the posting on a forum that you can find versus telling you. It's almost as if she expects you to read her mind. She's using extremes like "all the time", which can be troublesome if it's not close to reality. It also sounds like she's blaming her feelings on you too much. The way she feels is also partially her responsibility and you have to pick your fights. Sometimes people loose sight of what's really important after while leading to frequent arguments. By the list of reasons of why she is upset, it looks like she thinks she is unimportant to you and believes that you aren't doing enough to prove that wrong. You have things to deal with in your life and she is letting her insecurities keep her from accepting and understanding that. It doesn't mean she's wrong for feeling the way she does or that her feelings aren't justified, because they are, they are her feelings. She has some personal work to do to better control the way she feels and how she responds to those feelings. She needs to see that she is contributing to the arguments. I don't know how much you can help her change her own perspective, that is usually something the individual has to do on their own.
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Sounds like she wants to be a bigger part of your life and wants to be the person you confide in. All these major things happening in your life and she isn't apart of any of it.
This. I know for myself when the person I care about most is going through tough times (deaths, sickness, etc.) I want to help. It's part of how I express my affection. I was like this in the past when I dated an INTJ, actually. INFJs are counselors by nature. When that offer to help is denied over and over, I felt as if I was unable to do my job as a significant other and my self-confidence took a beating. I wondered: "What good am I to this person?" She appears to be reading "Not needing her" as "She is useless and you could leave her at any time without any upset in your life" instead of the literal meaning of "not needed." The frustration with this line of thinking can manifest is some pretty odd ways, such as passive-aggression.

She seems upset because it appears to her that you are distancing yourself from her and her feelings frequently. Having been there myself, that is the worst feeling in the world. Basically, this:
The truth is she is being dramatic and that is because she feels you are being distant or don't care about her. She is putting up defenses to avoid being really hurt. Make it easy for her to talk to you.
We crave closeness. It's true, INTJs withdraw to process things, then return to reality. Have you told her this? Have you explained to her that it is nothing personal, and that is how you cope and/or is part of your mourning process?

When dating my INTJ, communication was probably the hardest part. I didn't want to voice my feelings and concerns (like all the stuff in her head that she didn't tell you) because A) I didn't want to be a burden B) I didn't want to appear weak and needy in front of the almighty INTJ logic and lack of expressed emotion and C) I felt as if I'd be unheard.

INTJs tend to step on feelings or ignore them, and are often fiercely independent. But INFJs need affirmation that they are cared for, as you said, with words. Just spending time with her is probably a given to her, because that's what couples do anyway. Reminding her that your time is important and giving so much of it to her is part of your affection will make her feel a lot better.

As others have said, she has some growing up to do. But, she will flourish and you two will work well together if you communicate openly with her and have some patience.
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Seems like standard behaviour for an INFJ who needs something, has tried all the non-drama-queen ways she knows of getting it, and has reached the end of her rope and is flailing desperately.

My guess would be that she doesn't necessarily need more of your time per sé (because what I know about myself and other INFJs is that they're happy to generously sacrifice their wants for the person they love, as long as they feel important), but that she's feeling unloved and alone because you have a bunch of small mannerisms that trigger loneliness. The time thing is just something that it's more or less reasonable to talk about, while the little mannerisms are harder to discuss or even identify. People would understand 'my boyfriend just ran away in the middle of a conversation!' as a plea for comfort, but would think 'my boyfriend always exhales audibly before responding to me if I say something!' as overblown. But can both have a strong effect on the health of your relationship. From my own experience, I don't mind if my husband is gone for 23 hours per day, as long as he makes me feel loved that one hour we do have.

(This theory is from the Gottman Institute. Awesome relationship research. Nice quick test to see how you're doing with your relationship at Bids For Connection Quiz) She probably has a bunch of different ways in which she tells you she needs a small bit of your attention, and it's likely that you don't even recognize half of them. (This is because INFJs tend to be unreasonably subtle and INTJs tend to be rather oblivious in this respect.) So she bids for your attention and you turn away from her, maybe without even noticing that you are, in effect, saying 'you're not that important to me right now.' She's probably tried increasing the number of attempts to get your attention, only to discover that you still don't recognize some and likely even get annoyed and pressured by the increased requests. If so, you're still turning away from her at times, and now you might even be turning against her some other times, which probably sounds to her like not only is she still not that important, you dislike her trying to make herself important.

So what's an INFJ to do? She loves you, so she doesn't want to pressure you if it only makes you feel bad. She's also feeling lonely, and wants a higher percentage of her bids for connection to get a 'turn toward' response, which makes her feel loved and important. But increasing her bids hasn't helped. So all she can do is wait and hope YOU feel a little lonely and increase the number of your bids. In theory, that's a good plan - if YOU bid for HER attention, she has the power to respond favourably, increasing her feeling of love, while if she bids, whether it's going to result in success or loneliness is out of her hands.

However, INFJs are slightly clingy and INTJs are notorious Einzelgängers, so if she's waiting for you to miss her that's just never going to happen. Sure, eventually you'd turn toward her more, but you'll never need the frequency of positive interaction that she does.

Eventually, she ends up frazzled and loses all perspective and starts wars about who says what to whom on Twitter. This is NOT a healthy behaviour, but it's also not really useful to criticise it if you're not going to fix the underlying reasons she got that frazzled in the first place. She's probably feeling horrible about herself for acting that way and hopes that you won't hold it against her forever. (Heh, ask me how I know. Not proud of some of the things I did to get my (likely xSTJ) husband's attention.)

Solutions:
- learn about these bids. Gottman has a book. Might be worth a look.
- she needs to learn to be a little less subtle, so you notice her bids more and don't accidentally ignore her. It's possible to talk about these things directly. Or maybe give her that book. ;) If you ARE capable of discussing these things, it's interesting to find out which ways of 'turning away' she finds most painful and pay particular attention to not doing them.
- you need to learn to be a little more perceptive, for which I've found just being aware of the existence of 'bids for connection' helps a lot - and just to ease a potential worry, it's not the case that every bid for connection she does needs to be followed by half an hour of sickening romance. Tiny gestures like a smile or a nod or a touch or a 'can I get back to you? I'm in a crucial phase of something right now' help a lot. The theory says that happy couples can have something like 10 successful bids per minute, so each bid isn't supposed to take much longer than a few milliseconds.
- pro-tip: flood HER with bids, so she'll feel happy and not bid at you so much. This gives you a huge buffer to miss a few of her bids because they're too subtle or you're too focused on whatever you're doing. Other pluses: you can control when you bid and how you bid, and you bidding for HER attention scores you a lot more happyfuzzy points than you responding favourably to her bid for your attention. It's not hard to work out little gestures like smiles and touches that light her up, and it can be a fun and not very time-consuming game to get good at doing this.

[Edited to add:] You posted some situations in which it's necessary to retreat a bit. It's possible to say 'no I don't need you there' while still honouring her bid for connection with a 'turn toward' response. It's not going to be your default response, but you can learn it and make sure your I-need-to-be-alone requests get the answer of 'I understand, honey. You go do what you have to do. I love you, and will be right here when you come back.' A happy, fulfilled INFJ will probably love doing that for her SO. [End edit.]

[Edited to add:] Concerning the 'immaturity' of this INFJ: I think there's immaturity at play, but maybe not where you think it is. The fact that she needs more positive interactions than you to feel optimally happy and secure has nothing to do with being immature. That likely has to do just with personality. So you don't get to feel like the stable, mature one because you happen to be a little less mate-focused in your setup. Even the most loving, mature, stable INFJ will feel deeply unhappy when their needs aren't met for a long time. The difference is that a loving, mature, stable INFJ would probably do 2 things differently: a) She'd never let it get that far. She would've said much earlier "Look, there seems to be a difference in what we need from each other. What I need is X, and I'm going to make it easy for you to give that to me by being honest about what works best and give you feedback on how we're doing. Are you willing to learn how do that? It's important to me. If you're not, no hard feelings but then we are not the right people for each other." b) If it did happen to get that far accidentally, she'd have better self-soothing skills and problem-solving skills, and wouldn't lash out like that. And if things kept threatening to get that far, despite verbal assurances that her needs are important too, she'd know when to cut her losses. [End edit 2.]

It all depends on how much you want to invest in this relationship. This give-and-take dynamic is present in ALL relationships, but some people will be closer to your own native level of neediness. You both need a certain amount of openness and willingness to try stuff to be able to get good at this. She's also definitely going to need to create better signaling mechanisms than running away and posting her stress on a public forum.

Good luck to you both!
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Yeah, speaking from personal experience, this is definitely immature INFJ behavior. I've been here with my partner. There's nothing else you can do but confront it, but the thing is, emphasize how her actions have impacted you on an emotional level. Throwing facts at the issue (such as pointing out how much time you spend with her, the reasons why you're occasionally unresponsive, and so on) will not work at this point. She won't hear any of it and all that will happen is that it'll escalate into conflict and you'll both shut down. Insist that she be clear on what she expects of you and that the passive-aggression is harmful and does not anything.

You'll also have to address the mind-reading, because while you can make attempts to be more expressive/demonstrative in your affection (and she'll likely appreciate them, because it shows you care enough to step out of your comfort zone), expecting you to become Miss Cleo for her sake is an unreasonable demand. Withdrawing to process your own emotions is something you'll have to compromise with her on, because while this is normal for INTJs (and INFJs, as well) she fully expects you to come to her with every little thing. It makes her feel useful, needed, and trusted when you do that, and providing this "service" is probably one of the ways in which she would be most comfortable communicating her affection for you. Although it's not intentional, withdrawing = denying her affection, and cutting off a means of expression. Both types have a tendency to "need to be needed" when it comes to those they care about, but it manifests differently.

Godspeed!
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It's interesting how we INFJ's view ourselves as being weak, insecure or dramatic when we are the ones being neglected in the one and only way we really need a person. I bet every INFJ goes through one relationship where we realize that their own emotions can govern our actions and its at that point do we realize how weak we truly are. Only after seeing it for ourselves do we wake up... Just rambling. Ignore me.
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Just a question but will she see what's posted here? Is there any chance that there is passive agressive behavior going on from both sides? And face to face communication needs to be made, her behavior seems that of an immature infj, however I can tell you to make her feel comfortable and safe you ate going to have to both verbally and Physically reassure her of her importance.
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Just a question but will she see what's posted here? Is there any chance that there is passive agressive behavior going on from both sides? And face to face communication needs to be made, her behavior seems that of an immature infj, however I can tell you to make her feel comfortable and safe you ate going to have to both verbally and Physically reassure her of her importance.

First post, you wouldn't happen to be the woman in question?
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This is very similar to a relationship I had in high school. I've learned a considerable amount since then, mainly not to try to make sense out of nonsense.
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Also, are you familiar with David Deida? He says some great stuff imo.
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find another girl, this one's no good

why have a relationship with a total lack of trust?
find another girl, this one's no good

why have a relationship with a total lack of trust?
Why would you assume that it's the girl who's no good? What you should be saying is why have a relationship based on lack of communication (which can lead to distrust). That is the problem here and yet you decide that it's the girl who is the issue...
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I did not read the other posts because I am a little short on time, but I will reply to the first poster. For the record, it took me a long time to decide whether I was INTJ or INFJ. While I sympathize with your side of the story (I sense that you aren't trying to hurt her at all, you're just being you,) I can also see where the barriers are breaking down the communication. From what I can gather, this seems like a Fe/Fi conflict.

Basically, she needs external validation that the relationship is working. From her posts, I get the sense that she genuinely does not understand how you view the relationship, and she doesn't know if the relationship is going well or not. She wants to know how you *feel* about the relationship, and all of her second guessing your motives/what you are doing seems like she is trying to pull in all the clues she can to see where it is going, and since she is coming up empty (since INTJs are secretive and reclusive, this isn't surprising) she is starting to freak out. INFJs, whether mature or not, need to understand their partner, and with your internal world so secluded, she feels like she can't understand anything.

My husband and I often have a Fe/Fi conflict. Fi is very much stable and internalized, when you are acting upset, you aren't necessarily upset at them. It took me A LONG TIME to understand this about my husband, we even broke up once in our dating past over it. Fi says "I trust you enough that I can let go of my negativity in your presence." Fe says "you are acting miserable around me, you must be miserable WITH me." I would say, try to not be so negative in her presence, or make it 100% dead clear that you've had a bad day and it is nothing to do with her.


Also, try to understand how it feels to hear things like "I don't need anyone to survive." To an INFJ, that is a huge red flag, that is like saying "I don't need you," and then the questioning begins, things like "are they going to drop me the second I become boring?"


All of her passive aggressiveness seems aimed at one thing, to get you to open up emotionally. Whether it is to make you mad, make you sad, make you talk about your feelings, she just wants to know how you feel. I would say just bite the bullet, get a little fluffy and emotional with her, or at least talk about your feelings, and it will probably put her at ease and give her the sense that she understands you. Explain why you need seclusion when you're sad etc. Granted, I don't know if you have done this or not, if you have and it's just not getting through, then it may be time to let this ship sail, because she has gone past understanding you and has stepped into the realm of trying to change you.

Hope some of my rambling helps.
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Why would you assume that it's the girl who's no good? What you should be saying is why have a relationship based on lack of communication (which can lead to distrust). That is the problem here and yet you decide that it's the girl who is the issue...
he told her what he had to do and she immediately went off and posted in despair "he's lying, he's actually going off with his friend"

how is that not a lack of trust ?
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