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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, it has come to my attention as of late that I suffer from a pretty unique INTP problem: a conflict between Introverted Thinking and Extroverted Intuition. By that, I mean I have a very weak Extroverted Intuition, which leads to some problems.

Here is an analysis of some of the issues:

* The INTP gets "stuck in a rut" and only does those things that are known and comfortable to the INTP.
* The INTP resists and rejects anything that doesn't support their own experiential understanding of the world. If they perceive that something is not logical, they reject it as unimportant.
* They reject people who think or live differently than themselves.
* They may be extremely caustic and insulting to others.
* They may become isolated from society.
* They may become overly paranoid about social organizations and institutions trying to control them.
* They may unknowingly or uncaringly hurt people's feelings.
* They may be completely unaware of how to express their inner world to others in a meaningful way.
* They may be completely unaware of the type of communication that is often desireable and (to some degree) expected in an intimate relationship. If they are aware of the kinds of things that are appropriate to say and do to foster emotional bonding, they may be unable to appreciate the value of such actions. They may feel too vulnerable to express themselves in this fashion, and so reject the entire idea.
* If pushed beyond their comfort level to form commitments or emotional bonds, they may reject a relationship entirely.
* Under stress, they may show intense emotions that seem disproportionate to the situation.
* They may not recognize basic social principles, such as appropriate dress and general behavior.




In particular, another passage jumps out for my current situation:

The dominant function of the INTP is Introverted Thinking. This function is supported closely and importantly by the auxiliary function of Extraverted Intuition. Extraverted Intuition perceives the world and sends information into the psyche, where it is processed by Introverted Thinking. An INTP who uses their Extraverted Intuition function in a diminished way is one who perceives information for the sole purpose of feeding Introverted Thinking, rather than taking everything in objectively. They are less concerned with understanding something for the sake of understanding than they are with feeding a piece of data into their Thinking function. Information that is not logical is dismissed as unimportant. They may reject information that is not consistent with their logical view of themselves, or with their understanding of a situation. Well-developed Extraverted Intuition perceives situations with depth and global understanding. It recognizes possibilities. Introverted Thinking makes conclusions. If an INTP's psyche is serving the purposes of Introverted Thinking above all else, then logical conclusions become more important than possibilities. In such cases, the INTP picks and chooses information from Extraverted Intuition that is interesting to them from the perspective of reaching logical conclusions. This keeps the INTP focused on reaching logical conclusions, but it prevents them from taking in any information that doesn't work well with their logical functioning. This includes things like love, emotions, social expectations, etc. These things are very important to many people in the world, and cannot be discarded from consideration if one hopes to really understand other people and the society that we live in. When the INTP dismisses the importance of data that can't be handled by their Thinking function, they are dismissing the importance of ideas that are central to half of the personality types' way of life (approximately half of the human population uses Feeling primarily for decision making). An INTP who wants to understand people and wants to recognize value in both logical and nonlogical ideas will strive to take in as much information as possible about the world for the purposes of improving their understanding,

The INTP who suffers from diminished use of Extraverted Intuition is likely to be very cutting and derisive towards people who express disagreement with the INTP. Without a sufficiently diverse perception of the Extraverted world, the INTP is unlikely to understand the principles of human interaction, and is unlikely to recognize the tremendous value of getting along with others and having good relationships.





Above quoted from INTP Personal Growth




Now, for me, the emboldened part described a serious issue I have while socializing with new people. I have such a weak grasp of my external reality that I miss social cues in horrible ways. It's especially not good for what most psychedelic users will know as a thought loop. I am extremely adept at being in a comfortable situation mentally and refusing to acknowledge parts of the external reality which suggests something different.

Real life example: I went out with an awesome, brilliant, gorgeous girl (ENFP, they're fantastic) for the third time. Went out for a couple drinks, good conversation, lovely flirting. Came up in conversation that none of us had had dinner yet. Later in the night, she invited me back to her place to make dinner. I cheerfully and obliviously said "no thanks, I have homework to do for tomorrow!"
...
It only occurred to me fifteen minutes later, sitting on my computer, not really doing homework, that I was an idiot.


Poor girl is probably confused as hell too. Probably a little insulted or hurt. All because I have no ability to rationally assess the external world and use it to alter my existing assumptions. My existing assumption in this case: everyone says exactly what they mean.

Essentially my issue is that I use the external world to reinforce existing logical conclusions, rather than the external world to asses my conclusions. In the words of some scientist (may have been Sagan), I "twist facts to suit theories, rather than theories to suit facts."


Do any other INTPs have this horrendous issue? how do you get around it?
 

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interesting. I hadn't thought of things that way before. I just thought my social awkwardness/obliviousness was social awkwardness/obliviousness.

...which is exactly the point of the above, isn't it? :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Kind of. Obliviousness implies simple unawareness. The point above implies an ability to be aware, and yet filter out what you don't want to see.
 

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... I have such a weak grasp of my external reality that I miss social cues in horrible ways. It's especially not good for what most psychedelic users will know as a thought loop. I am extremely adept at being in a comfortable situation mentally and refusing to acknowledge parts of the external reality which suggests something different.
...
It only occurred to me fifteen minutes later, sitting on my computer, not really doing homework, that I was an idiot.
Being prone to ignoring external reality is an introvert problem in general. All introverted functions in theory are called subjective (yes it is not the feeling one that is subjective but all the Xi ones). Thus one can say that all introverts are inherently more subjective than introverts and prone to ignoring parts of external reality. Introverts are said to as if form a cocoon around them and then change the world inside this cocoon to correspond to their liking rather than adapting themselves to the world outside. Sounds like what you describing but it is problem of your Ti, not Ne.

The inability to grasp social rituals I'm guessing is an inferior feeling function phenomenon, as it is feelings that allow us to connect and sympathize with people as well as extrapolate their feelings towards us. My guess would be that turning the girl down happened because inferior Fe didn't ring the right bells in your head. I'm not sure how INTPs get around this one. I'm guessing that when you run into enough of these situations your Ne will be able to extrapolate the right patters in people's behavior and then you'll be able to predict what decisions will work and which ones won't.
 

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I noticed something funny; the bulk of what you pasted is the same from here:

ISTP Personal Growth

Which is dealing with ISTP and not INTP. I'm still learning most of this stuff and so I can't tell you whether your info or this other page might be more correct but maybe someone else can?

This is the INTP page from the same site:

INTP Personal Growth

.. though there does seem to be a ton of overlap, so it might apply to both.
 

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Yeah, I tend to think very lowly of anything which isn't logical in nature (love, social expectations, and emotions in general). Often times, I feel like a robot (like Lieutenant Commanded Data from Star Trek) with no ability to really handle or accept the basic irrational aspects of the human condition. I often feel like Data when I encounter some strange human ritual, wondering how it makes sense and feeling just as inexperienced and incapable of making sense of it as he.

For instance, I usually shrug off and dismiss irrational needs like "affection" or "to not be told things too honest."
To me, this is a weakness in humans. I don't understand these needs. Affection is something I don't always understand, and being honest is simply second-nature to me, so that I have a hard time telling white lies to be more tactful, so that I don't hurt someone else's feelings unintentionally.

And I do relate to your story about saying, "No" in a situation, just because you're unfamiliar to it.
People often offered me food and snacks in high school and my immediate reaction was to deny.
In all reality, I did want to share in their snacks; I just didn't feel comfortable accepting.

So yeah, having a very overpowered Ti function can be pretty straining on how we actually deal with the world.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sounds like what you describing but it is problem of your Ti, not Ne.
Aye, but the data which the Ti computes is supplied by the Ne. If your Ne can't take in the surroundings, you act and make conclusions based on bias, rather than reality.

The Fe inferior function is a huge pain in the ass too... I think I have a pretty developed F though, which is actually probably the trigger for a lot of this. The desire to have intimate and connected feeling based relationship is strong with this one. Feelings as the force... hmmmm.

It's an issue with the Ti, but I can't really change the Ti, because it is... so all-encompassing. Rather, in order to change a multinational corporation, you must work by changing the foundation. In this case, that takes the form of developing my Ne. But I don't know how to do that.
 

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In the words of some scientist (may have been Sagan), I "twist facts to suit theories, rather than theories to suit facts."
But isn't that something most people do? I am not sure this is actually the reason INTPs tend to miss social cues.
My impression is that the reason for social awkwardness is, as vel described, a problem with the feeling function.

Emotions cannot be processed in the same way as other information. How would the situation you described change if altered your assumption to "people sometimes don't say exactly what they mean"?
You would still have to be able to assess what the motivation behind the dinner invite is.
 

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Yeah, I tend to think very lowly of anything which isn't logical in nature (love, social expectations, and emotions in general). Often times, I feel like a robot (like Lieutenant Commanded Data from Star Trek) with no ability to really handle or accept the basic irrational aspects of the human condition. I often feel like Data when I encounter some strange human ritual, wondering how it makes sense and feeling just as inexperienced and incapable of making sense of it as he.

For instance, I usually shrug off and dismiss irrational needs like "affection" or "to not be told things too honest."
To me, this is a weakness in humans. I don't understand these needs. Affection is something I don't always understand, and being honest is simply second-nature to me, so that I have a hard time telling white lies to be more tactful, so that I don't hurt someone else's feelings unintentionally.
Maybe it helps if you try and view love and emotions as aspects that can contribute to your profound growth no matter how irrational they seem. Your intrinsic wants are not necessarily signs of weaknesses, even when they get irrational. I'm not suggesting that you suddenly become more accepting of sudden over emotional fits or tolerate useless emotional breakdowns, not like that. I'm suggesting that you start seeing yourself as more of a 'personal being' rather than only an objective thinker. Like it or not (even I sometimes wish I can switch off my empathy switch), we are still very much subjective beings at the core, shaped by feelings, values and certain experiences that may not qualify to be expressed in words.



And I do relate to your story about saying, "No" in a situation, just because you're unfamiliar to it.
People often offered me food and snacks in high school and my immediate reaction was to deny.
In all reality, I did want to share in their snacks; I just didn't feel comfortable accepting.

So yeah, having a very overpowered Ti function can be pretty straining on how we actually deal with the world.
Maybe next time, a more tactful way would be to just say,''I appreciate your kindness and friendliness, but I don't need any snacks right now.''


Those are just suggestions by the way. If you're less social and less expressive than other people, it is your identity and your right to be that way. I am just offering on how to see another perspective.

Obviously this is an INTP area though, and I may be limited in my experience so sorry about that.
 

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Aye, but the data which the Ti computes is supplied by the Ne. If your Ne can't take in the surroundings, you act and make conclusions based on bias, rather than reality.

The Fe inferior function is a huge pain in the ass too... I think I have a pretty developed F though, which is actually probably the trigger for a lot of this. The desire to have intimate and connected feeling based relationship is strong with this one. Feelings as the force... hmmmm.

It's an issue with the Ti, but I can't really change the Ti, because it is... so all-encompassing. Rather, in order to change a multinational corporation, you must work by changing the foundation. In this case, that takes the form of developing my Ne. But I don't know how to do that.
It's just that the issues you have listed are typically prescribed to the other three functions - dominant introverted function that gives one a more subjective slant, paranoia is prescribed to running dominant Ti-Si dom/tert loop, inferior feeling that makes the INTP feel as if they are very separate from others and not easily pick up when they have hurt other people's feelings, comfort seeking introverted sensing that chooses familiar situations over unfamiliar ones (Ne actually counters this one). That's why I wasn't sure why you were making Ne be the scapegoat. Malfunctioning Ne is associated more like with making connections that aren't there, seeing patterns that don't exist, saying weird things, making bizarre jokes other people can't laugh at, etc.
 

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I'm not sure how INTPs get around this one. I'm guessing that when you run into enough of these situations your Ne will be able to extrapolate the right patters in people's behavior and then you'll be able to predict what decisions will work and which ones won't.
Ti to see that there was something wrong, Ne to see how the situation worked and to come up with a possible solution (Ti-Ne loop), Si to remind you of your past mistake and to remind you of the solution you came up with.

Fe doesn't really tell you how to deal with a situation, it just means you're paying attention to other people's feelings, which is the best source of information for interpersonal relations. An INTP could learn to pay the most attention to the feelings of the people they interact with, instead of the facts, but that will make their head explode, if they keep it up. It would probably be best to pay attention to the feelings until you have an understanding of what's going on, and then use the other functions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
This is actually hilarious evidence of the (kind of annoying) INTP need for absolute precision in definitions of theories, even when the definitions don't change the reality of the question.

How would the situation you described change if altered your assumption to "people sometimes don't say exactly what they mean"?
You would still have to be able to assess what the motivation behind the dinner invite is.
Clearly I could, and did. The situation would be changed because I knew what it meant. It was a momentary flicker of "this means that" but my internal logical compass overruled observation and made it mean something different. I totally understood what was happening, I just repressed my understanding because it required an alteration of internal mechanisms.



More clarification: I have no issues with affection. I have no issues with understanding other people's emotions, I think I do it as well as many Fs (gasp!), but that's not the issue. The issue is that INTPs have minds which are less malleable than most. We are less willing to change conclusions we have made once we have arrived at them in a definite sense. We don;t want to change our mind when it requires an additional output of effort. It's the laziness thing.


I get that the other functions also contribute to this, but as of right now, the most obviously flawed part is the Ne, and as such I'm looking for ways to improve it.
comfort seeking introverted sensing that chooses familiar situations over unfamiliar ones (Ne actually counters this one). That's why I wasn't sure why you were making Ne be the scapegoat. Malfunctioning Ne is associated more like with making connections that aren't there, seeing patterns that don't exist, saying weird things, making bizarre jokes other people can't laugh at, etc.
Exactly. Also, making connections that aren't there is also an issue. When you make a lot of connections, most of which aren't there, it becomes increasingly difficult to make conclusions, which leads to paralysis, another issue which needs to be addressed.




Mostly, this has become a debate about brain functions, when it was intended, as the lone INFP understands (love you guys) just to find ways to improve on an existing situation. How does one exercise the Ne function?



paranoia is prescribed to running dominant Ti-Si dom/tert loop
This is very interesting to me, can you expand on that?
 

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Exactly. Also, making connections that aren't there is also an issue. When you make a lot of connections, most of which aren't there, it becomes increasingly difficult to make conclusions, which leads to paralysis, another issue which needs to be addressed.

Mostly, this has become a debate about brain functions, when it was intended, as the lone INFP understands (love you guys) just to find ways to improve on an existing situation. How does one exercise the Ne function?

This is very interesting to me, can you expand on that?
Simulatedworld posted an article that attempts to correlate MBTI to known personality disorders. Practically all of these correspond to either very heavy introversion or very heavy extraversion (over-reliance on the dominant and tertiary function). For INTP the correlation is Schizotypal Personality Disorder. One characteristic of this disorder is that the people affected can be very paranoid, so paranoid that they will not listen to their psychologist. This disorder typically overlaps avoidant and paranoid personality disorders. While I don't think all heavily introverted INTPs can be diagnosed as such they may find themselves displaying some characteristics prescribed to this disorder.
http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html
Schizotypal personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for working out your Ne function just try to extravert more. Any time you're sitting alone locked in thoughts inside your head that's when your Ti-Si are working and if you don't extravert enough then Ne-Fe don't get a work out - go out, engage in new activities, think about new topics, meet new people, etc.
 

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So, it has come to my attention as of late that I suffer from a pretty unique INTP problem: a conflict between Introverted Thinking and Extroverted Intuition. By that, I mean I have a very weak Extroverted Intuition, which leads to some problems.

Here is an analysis of some of the issues:

* The INTP gets "stuck in a rut" and only does those things that are known and comfortable to the INTP.
yes
* The INTP resists and rejects anything that doesn't support their own experiential understanding of the world. If they perceive that something is not logical, they reject it as unimportant.
could see that
* They reject people who think or live differently than themselves
.definitely
* They may be extremely caustic and insulting to others.
agree
* They may become isolated from society.
definite tendency
* They may become overly paranoid about social organizations and institutions trying to control them.
Republican much?
* They may unknowingly or uncaringly hurt people's feelings.
been on receiving end
* They may be completely unaware of how to express their inner world to others in a meaningful way.
this is tragic
* They may be completely unaware of the type of communication that is often desireable and (to some degree) expected in an intimate relationship. If they are aware of the kinds of things that are appropriate to say and do to foster emotional bonding, they may be unable to appreciate the value of such actions.They may feel too vulnerable to express themselves in this fashion, and so reject the entire idea.
can't even understand this
* If pushed beyond their comfort level to form commitments or emotional bonds, they may reject a relationship entirely.
uh oh
* Under stress, they may show intense emotions that seem disproportionate to the situation.
haven't seen this
* They may not recognize basic social principles, such as appropriate dress and general behavior.
tragic again
 

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I feel like what the explanation of weaknesses portion is essentially saying, "Don't fall susceptible to confirmation bias [the tendency to only look at data that supports your viewpoint and ignore everything else]." -- and tbh, that's pretty much what it says for all introverted personalities lolol. So to summarize it, to remember alternate possibilities and viewpoints and continue to increase, redefine, and further your understanding/perspective of things :) I feel like INTPs are naturally good at generating and analyzing from multiple perspectives/possibilities though! But sometimes it's just as easy, when not in a healthy state, to get stuck in a sort of tunnel vision? Blinded by emotion? A clouded judgment?
 

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I think "A Ti-Si problem" is a better title than " Our most painful and horrible problem: Extroverted Intuition "
 

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I think "A Ti-Si problem" is a better title than " Our most painful and horrible problem: Extroverted Intuition "
I agree, my Ne spidey senses work just fine. I'm even fine really with the Ti. It's the Si that is my most horrible problem. I think that is what interfered with my lack of ability to mirror other people when I was growing up. I understood a lot, I just couldn't mirror it very well and mirroring behavior is an important aspect of fitting in.
 
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