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Discussion Starter #1
And no I'm not talking about neglective parents, I'm talking about parents who's priorities are a bit messed up when it comes to taking care of their kids. Seems nowadays parents are too stressed out over trying to control their kids. Getting them to be the way they want them to be instead of actually raising them to be well raised and respected adults, to busy trying to kid their kids to respect THEM instead of other people, basically molding them into mindless drones of society. Too many "do what i say do, or else i wont do this for you." type of things going on, am I the only one who noticed this? Or has anyone else taken heed of this?
 

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Certain parents will always be at least somewhat like that, my mother certainly was (is).

I don't foresee any immediate bad things resulting from this trend of occasional socializers or shitty parents on a large scale.
 

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Certain parents will always be at least somewhat like that, my mother certainly was (is).

I don't foresee any immediate bad things resulting from this trend of occasional socializers or shitty parents on a large scale.
Oh really? I don't know, I've seen some pretty "hands off parenting" in the works, and these kids grew up to be amazing adults, because they weren't oppressed, they provided just the right amount of structure with enough freedom for the child to do what they want to do. Instead of the kid adapting to this parent the parent adapted to the kid, and added on and took away in the most tactful manner I'd ever seen.
 
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Keep in mind that raising a kid is hard. Anything a parent can do to make that easier is going to be attempted. Also, the best model a parent has to base how life is to be lived is themselves. Therefore, most lessons start from the point of view of how they'd do things. This model evaporates when children start interacting with other children. At that point, parents have very little power the children, as alternative living systems are put out there.

The natural response to this is to control who they're around, but that only works so much. As far as the rest of discipline is concerned, both me and the wife (who are black sheeps in our own way, her the rebellious one from a hands on family, and me the "meh, I'm doing my own thing" from a hands off one) discovered there's not much parents have over your head to punish you with in reality. Parental power only exists when both parties acknowledge it, and each person is different in how you get them to do that. Withholding stuff is just one of the easier and more obvious ways.
 

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I figure adults make for lousy parents as long as they do not get what parenting actually is.
 

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Oh really? I don't know, I've seen some pretty "hands off parenting" in the works, and these kids grew up to be amazing adults, because they weren't oppressed, they provided just the right amount of structure with enough freedom for the child to do what they want to do. Instead of the kid adapting to this parent the parent adapted to the kid, and added on and took away in the most tactful manner I'd ever seen.
I'm not saying it's how I'd parent my kids. But some of what you described is stylistic of SJ parents [(which has its ups and dows) usually downs with NT kids].
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'm not saying it's how I'd parent my kids. But some of what you described is stylistic of SJ parents [(which has its ups and dows) usually downs with NT kids].
Well that's primarily because I suspect my mother of being an ESFJ, heavily suspect. Set-in-ways, closed minded, you name it.
 
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And no I'm not talking about neglective parents, I'm talking about parents who's priorities are a bit messed up when it comes to taking care of their kids. Seems nowadays parents are too stressed out over trying to control their kids. Getting them to be the way they want them to be instead of actually raising them to be well raised and respected adults, to busy trying to kid their kids to respect THEM instead of other people, basically molding them into mindless drones of society. Too many "do what i say do, or else i wont do this for you." type of things going on, am I the only one who noticed this? Or has anyone else taken heed of this?
I think it's interesting that you say "nowadays" right here, because I don't think this is something that has really changed over the last 100 years or so. I think there have always been some parents that are too controlling, and some that are not.


Oh really? I don't know, I've seen some pretty "hands off parenting" in the works, and these kids grew up to be amazing adults, because they weren't oppressed, they provided just the right amount of structure with enough freedom for the child to do what they want to do. Instead of the kid adapting to this parent the parent adapted to the kid, and added on and took away in the most tactful manner I'd ever seen.
I agree with you that a balance is what's important...offering structure and freedom at the same time. But I also think it's important to understand what you're saying at the end...parents have to adapt to their children. What this means, however, is that some children are going to need more structure, and some are going to need more freedom. That's one of the nice things about the MBTI...it suggests the ideas that different people have different needs. An SJ child will probably feel just as stressed out by a lack of structure as an NP child would feel by having too much.


I think the reason why the control issue might be standing out to you is that there are probably more SJ parents with NP children than there are NP parents with SJ children, simply because Ss are in the majority (and SJs might be in the majority as well).


That being said, I think the thing is that everyone has been a child with parents, but not everyone has been a parent with children. So I think it's a lot easier to find fault in what someone else has done as a parent until you've done it yourself.


I honestly don't believe most parents who are too controlling are doing it out of selfishness, though I'm sure there are some who are. I think it's more likely that they just don't understand how their children are different from themselves, and this isn't always an easy thing to discern....because children are constantly growing and changing. Again, this is why something like the MBTI is so helpful. I think parents that are too controlling probably believe that this will help out their children in the long run, even if this is a false notion.



But I think it can happen in the other direction as well. A child can be just as damaged from having too little control from a parent as they can be from having too much. It depends on the child. It's possible that the case of too much control happens more often, but I think it's a really tough thing to measure.
 

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I think it's interesting that you say "nowadays" right here, because I don't think this is something that has really changed over the last 100 years or so. I think there have always been some parents that are too controlling, and some that are not.




I agree with you that a balance is what's important...offering structure and freedom at the same time. But I also think it's important to understand what you're saying at the end...parents have to adapt to their children. What this means, however, is that some children are going to need more structure, and some are going to need more freedom. That's one of the nice things about the MBTI...it suggests the ideas that different people have different needs. An SJ child will probably feel just as stressed out by a lack of structure as an NP child would feel by having too much.


I think the reason why the control issue might be standing out to you is that there are probably more SJ parents with NP children than there are NP parents with SJ children, simply because Ss are in the majority (and SJs might be in the majority as well).


That being said, I think the thing is that everyone has been a child with parents, but not everyone has been a parent with children. So I think it's a lot easier to find fault in what someone else has done as a parent until you've done it yourself.


I honestly don't believe most parents who are too controlling are doing it out of selfishness, though I'm sure there are some who are. I think it's more likely that they just don't understand how their children are different from themselves, and this isn't always an easy thing to discern....because children are constantly growing and changing. Again, this is why something like the MBTI is so helpful. I think parents that are too controlling probably believe that this will help out their children in the long run, even if this is a false notion.



But I think it can happen in the other direction as well. A child can be just as damaged from having too little control from a parent as they can be from having too much. It depends on the child. It's possible that the case of too much control happens more often, but I think it's a really tough thing to measure.
That's my point, for the parent to sometimes grow and adapt to their child, instead of expecting for their kids to automatically accept their archaic ways of doing things. That is one major thing that parents need to learn is that there is a difference between teaching and getting someone to conform to your way of doing things, not a lot of people in general seem to get this, you are completely right, this conflicts a lot with me and my mother, who doesn't understand I am much different from her, the complete opposite to be exact, I wonder if I show her mbti will she grow to accept things more.
 
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That's my point, for the parent to sometimes grow and adapt to their child, instead of expecting for their kids to automatically accept their archaic ways of doing things. That is one major thing that parents need to learn is that there is a difference between teaching and getting someone to conform to your way of doing things, not a lot of people in general seem to get this, you are completely right, this conflicts a lot with me and my mother, who doesn't understand I am much different from her, the complete opposite to be exact, I wonder if I show her mbti will she grow to accept things more.

I don't know if your OP was based more on your own personal experiences with your parents or if you were basing it on a variety of situations that you had heard or read about.

However, in regards to your personal situation, even though I don't want to simplify it to being solely down to a type issue, I think it largely is. I say this because I have seen numerous threads in the NP sections about SJ parents, so it's certainly a common occurrence on PerC. If you do some searches throughout the INTP section in itself, you'll probably find many situations similar to your own.

I offered some pretty long comments in this particular one, even though it dealt with an INFP child with an ISFJ parent:

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/96752-infp-surrounded-sfjs.html


The thing that is difficult about Si (which is one of the top two functions for all SJs) is that it bases knowledge on previous personal experience. So, SJs in general base all of their understanding of the world on their own experiences. This makes it very difficult for Si users to understand how others can be different from themselves.

It's particularly difficult in parent/child relationships, because a parent will oftentimes believe that their child is simply going through a "phase" and will change a lot of who they are when they become an adult (and in all fairness, I think this is a confusing thing for all parents, regardless of type, because all people have certain things that change as they become an adult and certain things that stay the same).


NPs are the opposite of SJs in the regard that they use Ne as one of their top two functions, and Ne wants the exact opposite of Si. This is why there is often so much conflict and frustration in a situation where there is an NP child and an SJ parent.


I would imagine a very similar thing would happen if there was a situation involving an SJ child and an NP parent. These situations seem to be much less common, at least based on input of PerC users. My guess is that this is mainly because NPs are in the minority in general as I mentioned earlier, or it may just be possible that NPs are less likely to have children than SJs are. It's hard to say.


A similar situation popped up in this thread about an ENFP discussing their ISFJ parent:

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-forum-nurturers/97875-communicating-isfj.html


As I mentioned in that thread, I think one of the toughest things about an SJ parent is that they will likely need to see consistent, concrete evidence of something to be convinced of it. Oftentimes it takes a lot of time for this to develop, and it may not even occur until the child has become a self-supporting adult. NPs in general are not the most consistent of types (since Si is a lower function for them), so usually it's uncommon for the SJ to be convinced.



Unfortunately, I think in these situations it comes down to the NP being the one who sparks the situation to change, because usually the SJ won't do it until they see a necessity to do so. I think because of this, it's often the NP who has to make the extra effort to get a firm understanding of the SJ and how they function in order to help them see how the differences can be reconciled. I think particularly for SFJs, if they can see that another person understands them completely, they're likely then to accept how the other person can be different...because there's a concrete understanding and example in which they can relate to.


It's unfortunate that it has to be this way, but I think this is just a natural barrier of Si. It's particularly strong in those SJs who know nothing about the MBTI or who don't believe it has any validity.


It's not a hopeless situation, but I generally believe that the NP has to be the one to spark the change in the situation or experience frustration and unhappiness. I'm not saying it has to be this way 100% of the time, but from my understanding of Si, it's the way that it usually happens.





And again, I'm not saying these types of controlling situations are always because of the MBTI, and it's not always an SJ controlling an NP. It's just that from what I've read on PerC, it seems like this is the most common occurrence of it.
 

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It takes too much energy and is too emotionally draining for me to be an overbearing, relentless, controlling parent. I do have some standards, though.

I am a pretty laid back parent and use more of a love and logic type of style. However, I do know that if the rules were left to my children then we would be gaining nourishment from Birthday Cake for breakfast, Skittles for lunch, and Monster drinks at dinner time so we could jump on the trampoline all night, sleep in dirty clothes when we finally got tired, pee in the street, Crayola markers for lipstick, and all the turtles in the neighborhood pond would be dead (because they like to bring them home and forget about them), firecrackers in the house, toilet paper hanging from the trees, and marijuana growing up and down the side of the house. Basically it would be like "Lord of the Flies". How do I know this? I am a parent with some crazy kids that if they were left to their own will would do all those things listed above (plus a whole lot more) because those are things I have dealt with. Parents are placed in authority for a good reason, trust me on this. lol
 

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It's an age old problem between parents and their kids and always will be. Yes, some parents are too controlling, some are too lenient, but to be fair to parents, most try their best to do what they think is right.

Kids cannot nearly comprehend or appreciate what their parents have done for them until they grow up and have kids of their own.

Their job is to teach their kids how to live independently in the world, a world that is not going to adjust to the child. So, the parents that are being themselves, are in actual fact, teaching their children a valuable lesson.
All the perceived faults found in an average parent are the same faults that the young adult will encounter in others when he steps out on his own.
At least he's already got some experience of how to deal with people who are different to him. The children who's parents have adapted to his ways are going to get a big shock when they leave home, because the rest of the world won't do the same.

I truly believe perfect parents would totally mess up their kids.
 
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It's an age old problem between parents and their kids and always will be. Yes, some parents are too controlling, some are too lenient, but to be fair to parents, most try their best to do what they think is right.

Kids cannot nearly comprehend or appreciate what their parents have done for them until they grow up and have kids of their own.
Great points.


Neverontime said:
Their job is to teach their kids how to live independently in the world, a world that is not going to adjust to the child. So, the parents that are being themselves, are in actual fact, teaching their children a valuable lesson.
All the perceived faults found in an average parent are the same faults that the young adult will encounter in others when he steps out on his own.
At least he's already got some experience of how to deal with people who are different to him. The children who's parents have adapted to his ways are going to get a big shock when they leave home, because the rest of the world won't do the same.

I truly believe perfect parents would totally mess up their kids.

I think you do make a good point here, because it is true that children need to learn to adapt in life as well. Everyone does need to learn to deal with those that are different than they are.


However, I do think there are some limitations to what you're saying, and I think this is why it is still important for a parent to adapt (to a degree) to their children.

Firstly, a parent's only responsibility is not just to "prepare" their child for the world. I also believe a big part of parenting is loving a child for who they are and accepting them for the rest of their lives. If they do not, then the child will have no reason to want to continue having a relationship with the parent once they do become an adult.

Likewise, even though I agree that a parent's different interactions with a child does give them experience in dealing with peers and authorities that are more like the parent than the child, the thing is that a parent is dealing with a child in a home environment, which should be a "safe" one. As an adult, when a person enters their home life, they are free (to a degree) to live their lives how they want to. When a child is at home, they are in this same kind of environment...one in which they should be relaxed and free to be themselves.

(This doesn't mean there isn't balance involved. I'm not suggesting that a parent should let a child do whatever they want at home or that they should teach their children that as adults they should just do whatever they want all of the time at home. However, the other side of the balance is that a parent shouldn't limit every single bit of enjoyment that a child experiences at home, either).


Finally, as a child is growing, they are still going through a developmental phase, one in which I believe parents (as well as teachers of children) should be sensitive to. Getting prepared for the "real world" is a gradual process, one in which I believe parents should be adaptive to in order to help their children learn to adapt to the real world.



So I do agree with your point that it is good for a parent to give children experience dealing with diversity. However, I don't think this means that it is not best for a parent to show some adaptability to their children as well. As some of us in this thread have mentioned, it's about balance.
 
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@teddy564339 I agree it's about balance, I certainly don't mean to say that parents shouldn't try at all, only there is another side to it which the child wouldn't benefit from either if it went too far.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Self-projecting parenting is only useful if the kid is exactly like you in every way, I noticed this with my own mom who I suspect to be an SJ, even with tiny things like the weather, if she is hot, then that automatically means that I am just as hot and shouldn't be wearing a jacket too. This wouldn't bother me as much if she didn't make it sound like I was an alien for wearing a jacket in neutrally humid weather by saying things like "OHHH THAT'S CRAZY, PEOPLE ARE GONNA THINK YOU ARE CRAZY FOR THAT." It is very irritating to deal with.
 
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