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Discussion Starter #1
I know some ISFJs who are some of the most passive aggressive people I know. Is this a trait of an immature ISFJ? I notice that SFJs drop passive aggressive hints whenever they are upset and disguise them as sarcasm.


p.s. sorry for all the negative topics, I think I have some really immature ISFJ friends and I am just trying to understand them better.
 

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Yes.
Very, it doesn't get better with maturity since that would imply saying how they really feel which goes against their need to coddle everyone.
 
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Some of the things ISFJs do can bother me. Like I have gotten angry with ISFJs if they start talking behind people's backs but there's no way the ISFJ would ever tell those things to the offending party himself/herself. I wonder if some of the reason they do this is that they are too afraid to handle a confrontation, and then they start talking about the other person behind their back becauase they still have a gripe with that person.

Also, maybe an ISFJ might start minimalizing the negative feelings that they have. They don't think they should have such negative feelings about others. But the negative opinions or feelings come out anyhow, and it comes out passive-aggressive (like sarcastic comments).

As an ISTJ, I know I can minimalize bad feelings instead of ealing with them head-on, and this can lead to a lot of resentment that will come out in bad ways later. Granted, I guess this would be more of a passive stance than a passive aggressive one. Passive is where you keep going with everything until you explode, whereas passive-aggressive will be like "I'll get even with you later. " I'm not sure whether an ISFJ would relate to the sentiment I express though.

I'm not an ISFJ though--I don't know what they would think about this. Let's get their opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes, immature SFJs seem to 'keep score' and collect 'guilt money'. It really bothers me. It also really bothers me how they will be friends with and like anyone who is 'nice' only because that person is keeping the social harmony. It can come off as superficial to me. And yes I notice they have a tendency to talk about almost EVERYONE behind their backs unless they are like their best best friends and then they will act all nice and friendly to their faces.... so I basically have just accepted the fact that my ISFJ friends talk about me behind my back when I am not there.... I think it is only the immature ISFJs who are this way because my dad is an ISFJ and he could care less about social gossip.
 

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Yes.
Very, it doesn't get better with maturity since that would imply saying how they really feel which goes against their need to coddle everyone.
Maturity would suggest type fixations and insecurities are being deal with, so negative behaviours are minimalised. Moving beyond type, in a way, though maybe this is too enneagramy for MBTI. Unless you mean physical maturit; as they get older.


I relate more to the passive side of kittychris' passive/passive agressive bit. Saying something like 'I'll get even with you later' seems something higly obnoxious, petty and...bullyish to me. If I got upset in some way, I'd find it difficult to disguise feeling, but would be unkeen to express them if I felt they would lead to conflict or uncomfortable situations.

I'm very conscious of monitoring how comfortabe concequences are likely to be.

At the end of the day I'd rather gather my thoughts, and rant at a wall alone, than explode unecessarily.

Anger makes me feel guilty and other negative things. If I get angry enough I'm capable of lashing out physically, I almost stabbed my dad with a pen, - the rubber hit him, but it could have easily been the sharp end, - and have been close to throwing breakable things, and punching people before, but I restrain myself. Being passive has always been the better option, really, I never feel better about or after outbursts, only guilty, unsafe/insecure, and ugly.

I personally don't talk about people behind their backs - I don't consider myself particularly mature or healthy though, I think there are different types of unhealthiness and maturity, as there are diffrent ISFJs.

I don't know the phrase 'guilt money'. I do't know about keeping score - what sorts of situations? As an introvert, I'm not that frequent in making friends at all.

Needing and enjoying good social harmony is due to sensitivity to it. I don't know about other ISFJs, but I couldn't cope with spending time with people who constantly kept me on serious edge, uspet me, and made me doubt myself. That'd be plain masochistic.

You don't want to walk around with a headache and nausea all day, you don't want to walk around with a bad harmony all day.
 

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As an ISTJ, I know I can minimalize bad feelings instead of ealing with them head-on, and this can lead to a lot of resentment that will come out in bad ways later. Granted, I guess this would be more of a passive stance than a passive aggressive one. Passive is where you keep going with everything until you explode, whereas passive-aggressive will be like "I'll get even with you later. " I'm not sure whether an ISFJ would relate to the sentiment I express though.
Absolutely not :tongue: but I can see how it would appear like this to someone else, and also where the 'keeping score' idea comes from. I don't know about others, but I never purposefully go out to 'get even' later or try to keep account of everything that's done to me. It's just that it's all stored away in there and so if something comes up in the future all the negative past experiences will surface. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's not a deliberate thing, just something that happens -- and it happens about the good stuff too. It can take a lot of bad experiences to wipe out a really good impression I have of a person. But anyway, by this account the way I am would be more 'passive' than 'passive aggressive' because I will let it slide but the resentment will build up until it explodes. It's just that it explodes with added 'past injustices' coming out in the storm. Thus to the person I explode at it may look like I was 'saving them up' to get back but in reality I wasn't. It's not like they fester away while I bide my time; it's just that when something happens the past encounters kind of shove their way in to the mix as well as whatever is going on in the present.
 

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I don't say things about people behind my back. I have a good word for everyone. Often when I attempt to accuse a person, I have a tendency to back off because what I am telling him or her is not exactly true. I may lash out on people, but I will be very sorry for doing so later.

I think you might be deviating a little bit from the thread's original topic too... unless you are referring to the extreme of passive-aggressive. I notice passive-aggressiveness trends among SFs. For me, passive-aggressiveness would come out when I feel like refusing something, but I do not want to confront others directly about it. Any type is likely to be aggressive at some point. Some can reason with their aggression, others can assure themselves that by taking things calmly, they won't set any further issues up.

Like Liminality, I have occasions where something triggers rage in me. Often, when doing homework or taking a test, I will pound my fist into the table because I am frustrated I do not know something I should. Missing rare opportunities angers me.

Come to think of it, I get mad at people for inducing frustration on me and get angry with myself because I miss things that where to help me live up to society's standards.
 

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I know some ISFJs who are some of the most passive aggressive people I know. Is this a trait of an immature ISFJ? I notice that SFJs drop passive aggressive hints whenever they are upset and disguise them as sarcasm.
I think a lot of this is similar to what I've mentioned in your other posts about gossiping and complaining.


Namaste said:
p.s. sorry for all the negative topics, I think I have some really immature ISFJ friends and I am just trying to understand them better.

The first thing about this is probably age. I don't know how old you or your friends are, but if they're still teenagers or young adults, it's probably not surprising to hear a lot of this behavior. I know that I matured greatly throughout all of those years...it's a process that takes time.


Also, I understand the need for finding more information and wanting to learn more about type...but if you really are experiencing so much negativity, then you probably want to think some about the friendship. To me, if there's more negative than positive in a friendship, I get to the point of cutting it off. If nothing else, I feel the need to at least talk to the person about it. In any friendship there are going to be rocky places, and you're not going to like, approve of, or appreciate everything your friends do. But if it gets to the point where there are things about them that you don't ever see changing, and those things keep your from enjoying the friendship, then I see no point in having it. I only mention this because you seem to have a lot of frustrations with these ISFJ's you know, and these things seem to be outweighing the positives.


And as others have said in other places, part of this is type, and part of this is maturity, but part of it is neither. Type is only part of a person...not all people of one type are the same and there are "good" and "bad" people of every type. I know that I sometimes have a bad habit of speaking for all ISFJ's when I really only can speak for myself.
 

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To be clear, I can be passive agressive, and I think it's true we have passive agressive tendencies.
Sadly, I think that's true too. It's something I try to avoid but even when I'm not doing it I've noticed people thinking I can be that way. I find it comes out much stronger in times of stress and in that way that HandiAce said -- not wanting to do something but just kind of nodding along so as not to rock the boat. I can see why that would frustrate someone else but I never see the point in arguing or outright saying 'no I won't do that' when it won't accomplish anything and will just make things tense.
 

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Yes, immature SFJs seem to 'keep score' and collect 'guilt money'. It really bothers me. It also really bothers me how they will be friends with and like anyone who is 'nice' only because that person is keeping the social harmony. It can come off as superficial to me. And yes I notice they have a tendency to talk about almost EVERYONE behind their backs unless they are like their best best friends and then they will act all nice and friendly to their faces.... so I basically have just accepted the fact that my ISFJ friends talk about me behind my back when I am not there.... I think it is only the immature ISFJs who are this way because my dad is an ISFJ and he could care less about social gossip.
This is possibly an unhealthy ISFJ you refer to, as my ISFJ does not do this at all! He would take so much stuff to his grave rather than repeat it.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
This is possibly an unhealthy ISFJ you refer to, as my ISFJ does not do this at all! He would take so much stuff to his grave rather than repeat it.

Yes, she is probably unhealthy. My dad is an ISFJ and he is not passive aggressive at all.
 

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I pounded my fists real hard into the table today when no one was around. Frustration I didn't know how to deal with.
 

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Yes, she is probably unhealthy. My dad is an ISFJ and he is not passive aggressive at all.
Oh no he is passive aggressive but he just isn't a gossip like that other poster suggested ISFJs are. In fact most people would consider him the most trustworthy soul they know.
 

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I can relate myself to some aspects in passive behavior, like procrastination and the lack of showing anger. though I never speaks behind anyone's back, or behave bad to people whom I don't like. I remember once at middle school, where there was this kid who lashed out at me, calling me bad names. Eventually he theatened to stab me with this small, sharp object because I constantly told him to shut up. This caused me to snap and therefore I attacked him with me bare hands. Allthough he wasn't hurt by my attack, I still felt so bad about it afterwards that I burst out in cries afterwards. That incident made it very clear for me that dealing with anger physically is just wrong. I guess I'm dealing with mostly with negative feelings through the sad, dark and aggressive music I listen to. Possibly also video games work as a chanel, but I don't know about that.
 

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I was called a passive aggressive bitch recently and it really bothered me. I see times where I have been but when it was brought to my attention I stopped and made sure to change what I was doing. I don't talk about people behind their backs. I'm very quiet and often keep to myself. This is hard with the job that I do seeing as almost everyone loves to gossip. It's aggravating when you're actually trying to work.

I do consider myself to be a very sarcastic person, but I do it out of jest and good fun. Not to hurt others or try to get at them. I hate the idea that I might be offending or hurting someone else. This in turn makes me very paranoid especially with people who become close to me. But I have the best intentions in everything that I do.
 

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But I have the best intentions in everything that I do.
I think this is what bothers me most about being called passive aggressive -- I can see why people might think I act in this way, but to me passive aggressiveness is an ugly thing done to manipulate people, whereas I always have the best intentions. I never intend to make people do things 'my way' and I certainly don't intend to hurt or annoy people. So to be told I'm being passive aggressive really hurts because I don't intend to be that way. Like you when it's brought to my attention that people can see me this way I start to second guess myself and my interactions become really stilted and unnatural. I am very much aware now that passive aggressiveness is a fault many see in the ISFJ so I try to avoid anything that could seem that way.
 

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I do consider myself to be a very sarcastic person, but I do it out of jest and good fun. Not to hurt others or try to get at them. I hate the idea that I might be offending or hurting someone else. This in turn makes me very paranoid especially with people who become close to me. But I have the best intentions in everything that I do.
I can't comment on you specifically (I don't know you), but when ISFJs try their hand at sarcasm or even wit sometimes, it tends to be a bit heavy handed and inelegant; a dull axe instead of a rapier.

The other factor that will earn you the "passive-aggressive" label is when you bury hurts and then unconsciously start acting like a raging prick. Sorry to say, but I've never seen any ISFJ correct this on their own; they always have to be called out on it.

I'm equally sorry to report that what you say your intentions are mean almost nothing. It's quite clear in passive-aggressive behavior that the intent is to wound or at least to make the other party feel some degree of pain or to share pain.
 

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I'm equally sorry to report that what you say your intentions are mean almost nothing. It's quite clear in passive-aggressive behavior that the intent is to wound or at least to make the other party feel some degree of pain or to share pain.
I may be missing something, but this doesn't make sense. If passive aggressiveness involves intending to wound or make the other party feel pain, and we're telling you that the intent of our actions is to not do that then why do you call it passive aggressive?

I know that the mere idea of being passive aggressive makes me feel really bad and I work really hard not to come across this way, so clearly the intent is not to act passive agressively. I'm genuinely confused because this looks like a contradiction -- is it passive aggressive if you don't mean it to be or only if you do mean it to be? Or are you saying that us saying we don't mean to be passive aggressive is a lie because all behaviour that looks passive aggressive on the outside must, as a matter of course, have the intent of hurting someone? Why not believe us when we say we don't mean to do it and are trying to get past the outside impression of passive aggressiveness?
 
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