Easier said than done, I'm afraid.
Pathological shyness and false modesty in INTPs
Anyone else noticed this trend?
It's the two ways in which I don't really relate to INTPs very well.
My problem with both pathological shyness (=social anxiety) and false modesty (=constantly belittling your own accomplishments or focusing only on your weaknesses) is that I believe they're both rooted in the same basic problem:
[wait for it]
You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed. Guess what? Nobody cares 1/10th as much as you do about how you come across in life. Most people have their own lives and their own problems, and whatever tiny faux pas you made three years ago was probably never on their radar. If they remember it, and they probably don't.
You don't need to become an extrovert to be successful or fulfilled in life. But you do need to stop focusing so hard on yourself and how others perceive you all the damn time.
Sometimes I even wonder if some of the INTPs here are extroverts who have severe social anxiety, based on how much they seem to care what other people think of them. The preoccupation with being one of the crowd, or being acceptable to the crowd, just doesn't ring "true" to me as an introvert.
<---- Just doesn't care.
Guess what? Not caring frees up a big part of my brain that allows me to experiment, take risks, and to do what I want to do in life. And you've only got one, so it'd be a shame to waste it.
It's the two ways in which I don't really relate to INTPs very well.
My problem with both pathological shyness (=social anxiety) and false modesty (=constantly belittling your own accomplishments or focusing only on your weaknesses) is that I believe they're both rooted in the same basic problem:
[wait for it]
You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed. Guess what? Nobody cares 1/10th as much as you do about how you come across in life. Most people have their own lives and their own problems, and whatever tiny faux pas you made three years ago was probably never on their radar. If they remember it, and they probably don't.
You don't need to become an extrovert to be successful or fulfilled in life. But you do need to stop focusing so hard on yourself and how others perceive you all the damn time.
Sometimes I even wonder if some of the INTPs here are extroverts who have severe social anxiety, based on how much they seem to care what other people think of them. The preoccupation with being one of the crowd, or being acceptable to the crowd, just doesn't ring "true" to me as an introvert.
<---- Just doesn't care.
Guess what? Not caring frees up a big part of my brain that allows me to experiment, take risks, and to do what I want to do in life. And you've only got one, so it'd be a shame to waste it.
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Do you have an INTP advice hotline? How much do you charge per minute?Guess what? Not caring frees up a big part of my brain that allows me to experiment, take risks, and to do what I want to do in life.
I'll have to hit you up for some brief words of wisdom moments before the next time I decide to jump out a perfectly functional airplane as an anxiety buster.
There are medications for anxiety. Good ones, that aren't addictive and that you can take short term.
Of course, if you've created bad patterns in your life, you're going to have to chip away at those. Maybe a counselor would help.
But jeez, if talking to someone on FB gives you a mini nervous breakdown, you need some kind of help.
Of course, if you've created bad patterns in your life, you're going to have to chip away at those. Maybe a counselor would help.
But jeez, if talking to someone on FB gives you a mini nervous breakdown, you need some kind of help.
I have no problems txt'ing, IM'ing, FB'ing, or chatting. In fact, I prefer that over face to face. Reason being is that I have ample time to formulate responses before hitting enter. Grammar check, misspellings, proofcheck for evidence of potential offensiveness and reword.But jeez, if talking to someone on FB gives you a mini nervous breakdown, you need some kind of help.
In real life, I do that still, however, it takes a bit longer to respond as desired. As a result, where I want to say something clear and concise usually turns out to be misunderstood and mush due to combination of misconstrued body language, tone, and moreso timing and execution. Practicing social speech is one thing, but having to interact in person is another.
In addition, repeating topics of previous discussions usually result in convo breakers / killers. I've learned to keep a mental note of at least 5 new topics to discuss. Chances are, if the opposite finds it interesting such that to keep the conversation going, that's great. 5 new topics can last through the night. However, if the 5 topics are breezed through in less than 10 minutes of short answer/responses, I get tongue tied searching for something else of interest to talk about without becoming redundant.
This is where I lose myself and shut down. If there are instances where opposite party tries to kick start conversations, I'd be more than happy to indulge with responses. However, tangents and keeping track of where the original topic was and the tangent strays are yet another challenge for me. My short term member is mush. If neither of us could backtrack the convo after a dead end, that's yet another embarrassment I'd have to endure. Simultaneously, they are feeling the same way when the convo just ends there.
No one wants to say redundant things. No one wants to hear repeated topics either unless it sparks that convo kickstart.
Then again, this is just me. I don't believe medication can resolve this issue I have either. Resolution must be done via verbal practice, I believe.
I think the best way to talk to people in person is just listen to what they say, and let some kind of automatic response flow out.
Even if they say something boring, just turn your response into a question:
"Oh yeah? How were winters up there?"
After you get good at small talk, you can start to learn give-and-take in regular conversation. Rehearsing what you want to say is actually going to make it more difficult, because you're going to be lost if the conversation turns in an expected direction (and it will).
Even if they say something boring, just turn your response into a question:
"Oh yeah? How were winters up there?"
After you get good at small talk, you can start to learn give-and-take in regular conversation. Rehearsing what you want to say is actually going to make it more difficult, because you're going to be lost if the conversation turns in an expected direction (and it will).
I think this is a big part of it right here. I've always felt that there was a strong #humblebrag component to a lot of this bitching and moaning people do about how socially inept and awful they are. It's almost like a personal reaffirmation that they're a harder-core INTP than the rest of us peons. "Ohhhhhhh woe is me I pass out from social anxiety if I have to order for myself in a restaurant. Look how much of a caricature of an INTP I am." Gimme a break. I don't think everyone is necessarily like that, but I've definitely gotten that vibe on many an occasion.You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed.
I don't find myself shy in 95% of situations. The false modesty I can definitely relate to.
I might be a warped extravert, but I’m not quite sure it fits.
My father’s perfectionism, criticism and controlling ways may have contributed to my inability to self actualise. It’s easy to play the blame game though.
It feels as if I only care what others think in very specific areas, where I have no armour. It definitely feels as if it’s the lack of individuality that leaves me without a frame of reference, and thus vulnerable to judgement. Could be the other way around though. Or a loop.
I certainly don’t give a shit about conforming in most areas of life.
Besides that I’ve probably said everything I have to on the matter in other threads.
Edit:
I definitely feel as if I’m the source of my false modesty, but it might be my attempt to emulate my father’s thought patterns to anticipate failure and avoid criticism. A remnant of childhood.
And I wouldn’t systematically call it false modesty, some(not all) of us just really are lacking in certain ways.
My father’s perfectionism, criticism and controlling ways may have contributed to my inability to self actualise. It’s easy to play the blame game though.
It feels as if I only care what others think in very specific areas, where I have no armour. It definitely feels as if it’s the lack of individuality that leaves me without a frame of reference, and thus vulnerable to judgement. Could be the other way around though. Or a loop.
I certainly don’t give a shit about conforming in most areas of life.
Besides that I’ve probably said everything I have to on the matter in other threads.
Edit:
I definitely feel as if I’m the source of my false modesty, but it might be my attempt to emulate my father’s thought patterns to anticipate failure and avoid criticism. A remnant of childhood.
And I wouldn’t systematically call it false modesty, some(not all) of us just really are lacking in certain ways.
You are my heroAnyone else noticed this trend?
It's the two ways in which I don't really relate to INTPs very well.
My problem with both pathological shyness (=social anxiety) and false modesty (=constantly belittling your own accomplishments or focusing only on your weaknesses) is that I believe they're both rooted in the same basic problem:
[wait for it]
You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed. Guess what? Nobody cares 1/10th as much as you do about how you come across in life. Most people have their own lives and their own problems, and whatever tiny faux pas you made three years ago was probably never on their radar. If they remember it, and they probably don't.
You don't need to become an extrovert to be successful or fulfilled in life. But you do need to stop focusing so hard on yourself and how others perceive you all the damn time.
Sometimes I even wonder if some of the INTPs here are extroverts who have severe social anxiety, based on how much they seem to care what other people think of them. The preoccupation with being one of the crowd, or being acceptable to the crowd, just doesn't ring "true" to me as an introvert.
<---- Just doesn't care.
Guess what? Not caring frees up a big part of my brain that allows me to experiment, take risks, and to do what I want to do in life. And you've only got one, so it'd be a shame to waste it.
I do like the whole self-absorption idea. Whenever I catch myself over thinking a social encounter with someone, I have to slap myself and sing that song "you're so vain, you probably think this song is about you, don't you" in my head. Not every crappy thing that someone does is about me. In fact, half of the perceived mean things people do are ecause they were just absent-minded or going through a tough time and didn't even realize who that manifested in such mean behavior.
It took me awhile to realize (and I am still learning) that people are people. We are all on the same playing field, the only thing that really separates us are our personal mindsets.
Richard, you are an exception because I believe you actually believe you're "less than" and a "failure", or on the verge of it, and it probably does have a lot to do with your parental unit.I might be a warped extravert, but I’m not quite sure it fits.
My father’s perfectionism, criticism and controlling ways may have contributed to my inability to self actualise. It’s easy to play the blame game though.
It feels as if I only care what others think in very specific areas, where I have no armour. It definitely feels as if it’s the lack of individuality that leaves me without a frame of reference, and thus vulnerable to judgement. Could be the other way around though. Or a loop.
I certainly don’t give a shit about conforming in most areas of life.
Besides that I’ve probably said everything I have to on the matter in other threads.
Edit:
I definitely feel as if I’m the source of my false modesty, but it might be my attempt to emulate my father’s thought patterns to anticipate failure and avoid criticism.
But for a lot of INTPs, I think Haldir's point about humblebragging is exactly true.
For example, the "I'm such a fuck up in school, but I still get As" thing. That's not humility, that's a not-so-subtle brag.
I've rocked in some classes, and sucked in others, but in every case, I'm going to own it. There are times when I just do not study, and I don't do well on tests. There are times when I study a lot and don't get an A. There are times when I hardly study at all and get an A. Whatever, I'm sure this is true for everyone who's ever been in school.
Ditto with the "I can't talk to anyone" and "social situations puzzle me" thing. Based on a lot of the astute observations I've seen on here, there's no way some of the people are as socially retarded as they seem to think they are. I know there are probably some aspies on here, so they have a legit excuse for not reading body language and other social cues. But the rest of you are just fine. It's mostly in your head.
We spend a lot of time in our heads. Our mind is a supposed haven of truth away from all the bullshit that lurks outside. I think there is an inherent arrogance with Ti to think that your thoughts are correct, because of the desperation to be so logical and objective. So, if we convince ourselves that we're socially inept based on teeny experiences that we've blown out of proportion, we're going to full-throttle believe it. It's a difficult thing to snap out of.But the rest of you are just fine. It's mostly in your head.
Yeah, I understand. I've had my own short episodes of it.We spend a lot of time in our heads. Our mind is a supposed haven of truth away from all the bullshit that lurks outside. I think there is an inherent arrogance with Ti to think that your thoughts are correct, because of the desperation to be so logical and objective. So, if we convince ourselves that we're socially inept based on teeny experiences that we've blown out of proportion, we're going to full-throttle believe it. It's a difficult thing to snap out of.
Maybe there's an MBTI method for helping Ti loosen up.
Maybe there's an MBTI method for helping Ti loosen up.
Yeah, it's called "stop trying to get me to be more like you, I've already had enough of that in my lifetime".
I admit, it's a long title, but to make up for that the rest of it is quite short.
I don't care if people are "like me", but when people are this unhappy and freaking out over FB messages... Do whatever you want, but there are simple things you could do that would make things better if you're that distressed about talking to people.Yeah, it's called "stop trying to get me to be more like you, I've already had enough of that in my lifetime".
I admit, it's a long title, but to make up for that the rest of it is quite short.
Qingdom's (yeah, I capitalized your name, deal with it) problems are his own and are not shared by us all.I don't care if people are "like me", but when people are this unhappy and freaking out over FB messages... Do whatever you want, but there are simple things you could do that would make things better if you're that distressed about talking to people.
Half the reason these younger INTPs have all these problems is that they've spent the majority of their lives being told that being the way they are is wrong. That shit gets to you.
"You are wrong for not being like me."
So instead of compounding that, encourage them to accept themselves and be who they are. Encourage them to stop giving a fuck and don't ruin that statement by then telling them they're wrong for not being like you.
Do you wonder why they would have such a reaction over messages? Or are you convinced that it's merely because they aren't like you?
I test INTP myself, dude. I'm an NT female, I know what it's like to be told the way I am is wrong.Qingdom's (yeah, I capitalized your name, deal with it) problems are his own and are not shared by us all.
Half the reason these younger INTPs have all these problems is that they've spent the majority of their lives being told that being the way they are is wrong. That shit gets to you.
"You are wrong for not being like me."
So instead of compounding that, encourage them to accept themselves and be who they are. Encourage them to stop giving a fuck and don't ruin that statement by then telling them they're wrong for not being like you.
Do you wonder why they would have such a reaction over messages? Or are you convinced that it's merely because they aren't like you?
And I've been the first one to stand up for you guys on several occasions when others were in your face.
But when I see the level of passive-aggression and shit on here, and realize that this probably reflects in the real world at least to some degree, it's just like FACEPALM. Like I said, do what you need to do. My two cents.
Don't get testy when other people find their dreams being fulfilled if you aren't willing to go after your own.
I'm seriously afraid to use Omegle, Chatroulette and Skype. Talking to new people without some already established common ground freaks me the hell out. I tried Omegle for a few minutes before and it was ridiculously uncomfortable and I just kinda replied briefly and formally to everything the stranger said (he/she happened to be a furry and opened the conversation with that).There are medications for anxiety. Good ones, that aren't addictive and that you can take short term.
Of course, if you've created bad patterns in your life, you're going to have to chip away at those. Maybe a counselor would help.
But jeez, if talking to someone on FB gives you a mini nervous breakdown, you need some kind of help.
The line would probably just be a soothing lady's voice hooked up to an answering machine which repeats "It'll all be okay. The fear is only in your mind," (or something) constantly until the caller hangs up.Do you have an INTP advice hotline? How much do you charge per minute?
I'll have to hit you up for some brief words of wisdom moments before the next time I decide to jump out a perfectly functional airplane as an anxiety buster.
It would probably save millions of lives.
The line would probably just be a soothing lady's voice hooked up to an answering machine which repeats "It'll all be okay. The fear is only in your mind," (or something) constantly until the caller hangs up.
It would probably save millions of lives.
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
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