Funniest shit here! This is my new voicemail message song. Thank you.
Pathological shyness and false modesty in INTPs
Anyone else noticed this trend?
It's the two ways in which I don't really relate to INTPs very well.
My problem with both pathological shyness (=social anxiety) and false modesty (=constantly belittling your own accomplishments or focusing only on your weaknesses) is that I believe they're both rooted in the same basic problem:
[wait for it]
You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed. Guess what? Nobody cares 1/10th as much as you do about how you come across in life. Most people have their own lives and their own problems, and whatever tiny faux pas you made three years ago was probably never on their radar. If they remember it, and they probably don't.
You don't need to become an extrovert to be successful or fulfilled in life. But you do need to stop focusing so hard on yourself and how others perceive you all the damn time.
Sometimes I even wonder if some of the INTPs here are extroverts who have severe social anxiety, based on how much they seem to care what other people think of them. The preoccupation with being one of the crowd, or being acceptable to the crowd, just doesn't ring "true" to me as an introvert.
<---- Just doesn't care.
Guess what? Not caring frees up a big part of my brain that allows me to experiment, take risks, and to do what I want to do in life. And you've only got one, so it'd be a shame to waste it.
It's the two ways in which I don't really relate to INTPs very well.
My problem with both pathological shyness (=social anxiety) and false modesty (=constantly belittling your own accomplishments or focusing only on your weaknesses) is that I believe they're both rooted in the same basic problem:
[wait for it]
You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed. Guess what? Nobody cares 1/10th as much as you do about how you come across in life. Most people have their own lives and their own problems, and whatever tiny faux pas you made three years ago was probably never on their radar. If they remember it, and they probably don't.
You don't need to become an extrovert to be successful or fulfilled in life. But you do need to stop focusing so hard on yourself and how others perceive you all the damn time.
Sometimes I even wonder if some of the INTPs here are extroverts who have severe social anxiety, based on how much they seem to care what other people think of them. The preoccupation with being one of the crowd, or being acceptable to the crowd, just doesn't ring "true" to me as an introvert.
<---- Just doesn't care.
Guess what? Not caring frees up a big part of my brain that allows me to experiment, take risks, and to do what I want to do in life. And you've only got one, so it'd be a shame to waste it.
21 - 37 of 37 Posts
In my case... I know it's a self-esteem thing that tends to come off as what you're talking about. I can't just 'stop caring' but I've tried ... it's so much harder to do than you're making it seem. But it's not false modesty at all though ... I really do think I can do better, and I get frustrated at myself when what I'm doing isn't as good as I think it should be. Like... I just feel like I'm not doing anything 'good enough' and then I complain about it to my friend. If anything I'm hard on myself but I guess I can only hope it's not any kind of pretense.
But ... good for you, for being 'free' from it.
But ... good for you, for being 'free' from it.
I do not feel shy at all. But I am aware of how much energy I have in any given situation. I’m selective of how I expend my energy, because I can become drained really fast, even with small-talk. Interesting ideas keep me attentive for longer, where I talk more or start up conversations. Most of the time, however, I react to communication rather than engage directly. In the back of my mind, I’m waiting to go away, to detach into my world. It’s much easier to listen, respond, and think, than to talk, talk, talk. On the other hand, I think I have some social anxiety, where large crowds make me nervous and more selective, to where I speak hardly at all. I will talk if there are one to three people present, but I have no idea how to talk with large groups who are constantly waiting for their turns to say what they want. I remain silent and go off on my own. Oddly enough, giving presentations isn’t nerve racking, but talking to a person about daily events makes me feel impulsive.
Word for freaking word.I have no problems txt'ing, IM'ing, FB'ing, or chatting. In fact, I prefer that over face to face. Reason being is that I have ample time to formulate responses before hitting enter. Grammar check, misspellings, proofcheck for evidence of potential offensiveness and reword.
In real life, I do that still, however, it takes a bit longer to respond as desired. As a result, where I want to say something clear and concise usually turns out to be misunderstood and mush due to combination of misconstrued body language, tone, and moreso timing and execution. Practicing social speech is one thing, but having to interact in person is another.
In addition, repeating topics of previous discussions usually result in convo breakers / killers. I've learned to keep a mental note of at least 5 new topics to discuss. Chances are, if the opposite finds it interesting such that to keep the conversation going, that's great. 5 new topics can last through the night. However, if the 5 topics are breezed through in less than 10 minutes of short answer/responses, I get tongue tied searching for something else of interest to talk about without becoming redundant.
This is where I lose myself and shut down. If there are instances where opposite party tries to kick start conversations, I'd be more than happy to indulge with responses. However, tangents and keeping track of where the original topic was and the tangent strays are yet another challenge for me. My short term member is mush. If neither of us could backtrack the convo after a dead end, that's yet another embarrassment I'd have to endure. Simultaneously, they are feeling the same way when the convo just ends there.
No one wants to say redundant things. No one wants to hear repeated topics either unless it sparks that convo kickstart.
Then again, this is just me. I don't believe medication can resolve this issue I have either. Resolution must be done via verbal practice, I believe.
Also, I hate going to shop at a store by myself for some reason. I get this weird feeling everyone is watching me to make sure I follow social protocol perfectly and that I will be destroyed if I do not. I don't even know half the rules so I know I am bound to break one.
You may like this one better:Funniest shit here! This is my new voicemail message song. Thank you.
Off topic: My avatar really does seem to dance to every song I play.
Going back to this, if it's okay...
Is it possible that worrying about how we come across comes from the inferior Fe? Socializing is something we want/need, but we know we're bad at it. Our options are to try to get better at it, to mope about it, or to try to find a way to live without it. I don't think moping is a good idea, but I don't think "not caring" works either. I can't make myself not care completely. But I can appeal to something that's more important and say that learning to socialize and connect with people is worth the risk because ______.You don't need to become an extrovert to be successful or fulfilled in life. But you do need to stop focusing so hard on yourself and how others perceive you all the damn time.
Really scary coming from an INTP. If that were on qingdom's voicemail, and I called, I for one would be terrified.You may like this one better:
Off topic: My avatar really does seem to dance to every song I play.
Change the 95% to about 85% and that'd be me. I tend to play down most of my strengths, except being smart:tongue: I'm just too proud of that haha. But I do tend to focus on my weaknesses for the most part, but how else are you supposed to improve them?I don't find myself shy in 95% of situations. The false modesty I can definitely relate to.
Coming from someone with social anxiety, I know that it is ridiculous how much emphasis is put on others' opinions. I try to fight against such thoughts about embarrassing myself or seeming like a fool, but it just seems close to impossible. It's true, it's easier to say that you don't care than not actually caring.
The case with me though is that I've been told on several occasions that I have to make a good impression, and that I have to reach a certain level of expectation. My guess is that now I just find it overwhelming to do or be what is "expected" based on what is considered "right" in the social protocol. And so now I freak out because I think about all the various things that can go wrong in social interactions. I then see that anything I do wrong can then be used against me in a way to degrade me or lower my reputation.
The case with me though is that I've been told on several occasions that I have to make a good impression, and that I have to reach a certain level of expectation. My guess is that now I just find it overwhelming to do or be what is "expected" based on what is considered "right" in the social protocol. And so now I freak out because I think about all the various things that can go wrong in social interactions. I then see that anything I do wrong can then be used against me in a way to degrade me or lower my reputation.
Have you heard of counter-shaming which is seen in 3s or 3 fixers? 3s/3 fixers have a fixation on shame, and some of them will actually shame themselves instead of simply talk themselves up -- but of course still as a way to self-promote, or perhaps seem more genuine.Richard, you are an exception because I believe you actually believe you're "less than" and a "failure", or on the verge of it, and it probably does have a lot to do with your parental unit.
But for a lot of INTPs, I think Haldir's point about humblebragging is exactly true.
For example, the "I'm such a fuck up in school, but I still get As" thing. That's not humility, that's a not-so-subtle brag.
I've rocked in some classes, and sucked in others, but in every case, I'm going to own it. There are times when I just do not study, and I don't do well on tests. There are times when I study a lot and don't get an A. There are times when I hardly study at all and get an A. Whatever, I'm sure this is true for everyone who's ever been in school.
Ditto with the "I can't talk to anyone" and "social situations puzzle me" thing. Based on a lot of the astute observations I've seen on here, there's no way some of the people are as socially retarded as they seem to think they are. I know there are probably some aspies on here, so they have a legit excuse for not reading body language and other social cues. But the rest of you are just fine. It's mostly in your head.
I know nothing about the Enneagram, but this makes perfect sense.Have you heard of counter-shaming which is seen in 3s or 3 fixers? 3s/3 fixers have a fixation on shame, and some of them will actually shame themselves instead of simply talk themselves up -- but of course still as a way to self-promote, or perhaps seem more genuine.
*reads up on Enneagram*
@Ablysmal
I guess what I do is mostly try to act as politely as possible, but every once in a while I'll state my opinion and because it's blunt or too "honest", people think I'm trying to upset/insult them.
I never thought much about it, until I was forced to be around people whose threshold for truth-telling is set really low (in NYC, most people are considerably more obnoxious and "honest" than I am). For a while, these people tried to make me feel bad about it. So I obsessed about whether everything I said was nice enough, etc. Then I realized, "these people say and do much more offense shit than I've ever dreamed of doing, regularly and with joy." And I realized that it's not always good to be terrified of rocking the boat.
I make a real effort not to be critical of people personally, but I do tend to be critical of institutions and the things some people value. Too bad for them! I hope they stand up for their own values, as well, regardless of how I'm going to react.
I used to be like this and still am, but then I took some "E" to the knee, now i'm zipping around like a bee, just being me.
Although I didn't really focus on my faults, but would say things to make others think I have a fault, but then reveal it to be a strength.
E.X. random classmate-"you, Hruberen, what did you get on your ACT?" me-"Oh nothing special, you probably won't want to hear" RC-"No, comeon tell us" me-"I only got a 30, although I did get a 35 science because I missed 1 question, sucks right?"
Random classmate now feels horrible, I should probably stop this, but at least they can't say they didn't ask for it
Although I didn't really focus on my faults, but would say things to make others think I have a fault, but then reveal it to be a strength.
E.X. random classmate-"you, Hruberen, what did you get on your ACT?" me-"Oh nothing special, you probably won't want to hear" RC-"No, comeon tell us" me-"I only got a 30, although I did get a 35 science because I missed 1 question, sucks right?"
Random classmate now feels horrible, I should probably stop this, but at least they can't say they didn't ask for it
Pffff... whatever, if they couldn't handle the fact that someone might do well on a test, they shouldn't have 1) asked about your score, or 2) ever been born, because life is going to get a lot tougher than that.I used to be like this and still am, but then I took some "E" to the knee, now i'm zipping around like a bee, just being me.
Although I didn't really focus on my faults, but would say things to make others think I have a fault, but then reveal it to be a strength.
E.X. random classmate-"you, Hruberen, what did you get on your ACT?" me-"Oh nothing special, you probably won't want to hear" RC-"No, comeon tell us" me-"I only got a 30, although I did get a 35 science because I missed 1 question, sucks right?"
Random classmate now feels horrible, I should probably stop this, but at least they can't say they didn't ask for it
It's so ridiculous when people ask you questions when they already know the answer to, just so they can complain about the outcome.
Nono, I WANT to tell them, I just want to make them regret it and not come off as a braggart when I brag.Pffff... whatever, if they couldn't handle the fact that someone might do well on a test, they shouldn't have 1) asked about your score, or 2) ever been born, because life is going to get a lot tougher than that.
It's so ridiculous when people ask you questions when they already know the answer to, just so they can complain about it.
I just try not to think about it anymore.
Mostly because my health teacher said that most girls worry about something stupid that they said all night long or whatever, and guys sort of just forget about it.
Although that doesn't work sometimes, I'm definitely not as shy as I used to be.
I think I'm more impulsive and hedonistic though... hmm...
I'm not sure which is worse...
Mostly because my health teacher said that most girls worry about something stupid that they said all night long or whatever, and guys sort of just forget about it.
Although that doesn't work sometimes, I'm definitely not as shy as I used to be.
I think I'm more impulsive and hedonistic though... hmm...
I'm not sure which is worse...
I had a real good friend, she has since moved to a different state, who was so self-absorbed about how other people would think about her that she limited her social interactions. She honestly believed that people would be mad at her because she never stayed in touch and that people judged her, for reasons I didn't understand. I proceeded to call her a narcissist, explaining to her that it is delusional to think that people even care about what she's been doing, and that her existence did not have any effect on the way other people lived their lives. In a moment of insight, she realized that I was right, that she needn't worry about what other people think, mainly because other people don't analytically think in the first place.Anyone else noticed this trend?
It's the two ways in which I don't really relate to INTPs very well.
My problem with both pathological shyness (=social anxiety) and false modesty (=constantly belittling your own accomplishments or focusing only on your weaknesses) is that I believe they're both rooted in the same basic problem:
[wait for it]
You're thinking too long and too hard about yourself and how the world reacts to you or might react to you or could react to you in a worst case scenario. Instead of being less self-absorbed than others, you're actually more self-absorbed. Guess what? Nobody cares 1/10th as much as you do about how you come across in life. Most people have their own lives and their own problems, and whatever tiny faux pas you made three years ago was probably never on their radar. If they remember it, and they probably don't.
I'm in a constant state of enjoying myself at others' expense. I enjoy calling out bullshit, and being cocky. I can see how I could get easily get into a habit of thinking like this, but I don't. It bothers me how many people on this forum are so consistently preoccupied with SJ-like thinking. Propriety, fitting in, etc. Do what you want. Zero fucks should be given--by both you, and 3rd parties; and if 3rd parties have anything to say about it, you should have something to say to them.
21 - 37 of 37 Posts
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