"Pecking orders"
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I've read in some instances that Te dominants are able to quickly grasp the "pecking order" in new settings and find their place in it.. and after that, they really only look up. Is this true? I figured I'd share it with you ENTJs first. Are you aware of your "place" in groups, whether you care or not or are deluded into thinking you're always on top?
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... Doesn't everyone?
I mean, I don't usually associate it with functions, more like... insight/observation. If there's enough data, yes.
I mean, I don't usually associate it with functions, more like... insight/observation. If there's enough data, yes.
I don't get that part though. Only care about/ listen to the ones higher in the hierarchy? Targeting to rise in ranks?
A lot of people do, but not all. Some are not willing to play games to rise up, or just don't have the "right stuff" or care more about people and relationships than rank and power.
As far as value and respect go, (and don't lie to me) who do you respect more in the "order"?
As far as value and respect go, (and don't lie to me) who do you respect more in the "order"?
You know, many who don't deserve it sit higher in hierarchies. And some hierarchies/ circles don't even matter. While I might be more careful/ diplomatic to the 'top dogs' of a circle I'm in/ dealing with, I respect whoever I respect. *shrugs*
No.
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Indeed, that is a bit weird question. Usually I find my place in a matter of minutes and of course look upwards as I would expect everyone to do. However, I still have morals, and will not do everything in order to rise up as well as I won't just agree with anyone because they are the current "leader".
On the other hand I try to be polite and nice to everyone I meet, and usually you find that when being nice people stop caring about your "rank" and instead find themselves more inclusive and supportive.
On the other hand I try to be polite and nice to everyone I meet, and usually you find that when being nice people stop caring about your "rank" and instead find themselves more inclusive and supportive.
I think ENTJs are very aware of the structure of the organization and where they fit in, after all we probably have analyzed it and are thinking of ways to improve it.
I make the most of where I am and do my best, providing evidence of my capabilities versus shooting my mouth off and being an arrogant bitch.
I make the most of where I am and do my best, providing evidence of my capabilities versus shooting my mouth off and being an arrogant bitch.
Yes. I'm aware that I do it and I am also aware that it does not come naturally to most people. The same way that I am sometimes awkward with false niceties, and most people are good at that.
Also, I am always trying to improve myself and move forward: if there is more to be gained from a superior, which there usually is, of course I am going to groom my relationship with them.
I would also like to state that just because I am aware of the order in a situation, that does not mean I agree with it. I might go with it if I don't have enough leverage, but that doesn't mean I always agree with it. Lately I have though, as far as higher level academia and my career go.
Also, I am always trying to improve myself and move forward: if there is more to be gained from a superior, which there usually is, of course I am going to groom my relationship with them.
I would also like to state that just because I am aware of the order in a situation, that does not mean I agree with it. I might go with it if I don't have enough leverage, but that doesn't mean I always agree with it. Lately I have though, as far as higher level academia and my career go.
Totally. My ENTJ boss is great at "managing up," as am I. Of the people that work for me, the one that "manages" me the best to his own benefit is the ENTJ (the only NT on my team). I've accused him of this before, and all I get is a sly smile in response. ENTJs are really good at not saying the wrong things and giving a good impression. They don't brown nose, but that's ineffective in the long run anyway because it loses you respect.
Most situations don't have a pecking order, and if they do, I do my best to disrupt it via humor, project mayhem, operation chaos, or whatever. Being a part of a pecking order is like... work... and I expect to be compensated for it.
Seriously, among friends, if people are competing with each other, trying to establish dominance, etc. etc. then we're not really friends.
Seriously, among friends, if people are competing with each other, trying to establish dominance, etc. etc. then we're not really friends.
"On the other hand I try to be polite and nice to everyone I meet, and usually you find that when being nice people stop caring about your "rank" and instead find themselves more inclusive and supportive.
Exerio brought out an excellent point. The last thing you want to do is alienate people. Because if and when you do rise up the ranks, you will need their skills, talents and support. Where ever you are on the totem pole , take advantage of the time and use it wisely. I've learned to carve a nitch in seemingly dead-end situations.
Exerio brought out an excellent point. The last thing you want to do is alienate people. Because if and when you do rise up the ranks, you will need their skills, talents and support. Where ever you are on the totem pole , take advantage of the time and use it wisely. I've learned to carve a nitch in seemingly dead-end situations.
Do you compare yourself to people below yourself in the "pecking order"?
Even INTJs know that you use what's useful when it comes to people.
Even INTJs know that you use what's useful when it comes to people.
I see the "pecking order" when going into a new environment.
Depending of what the environment is (it's worth), I will see where I fit in and try and move upwards if I wish.
If the environment is not worth it, then I typically do notice is but dont care, or do anything about it.
I do however think it's a pretty valuable skill to gauge your surroundings.
When I first got my at the physics lab, I noticed this immediately.
Depending of what the environment is (it's worth), I will see where I fit in and try and move upwards if I wish.
If the environment is not worth it, then I typically do notice is but dont care, or do anything about it.
I do however think it's a pretty valuable skill to gauge your surroundings.
When I first got my at the physics lab, I noticed this immediately.
I like underdogs [in pecking orders]. I don't like it when other people unfairly attack them. Of course, when I do, it's fine. But when they do it, no, that's unfair. Don't know where I learned to be such a hypocrit, really...
It looks like the vagina dominants care a lot about pecking orders, penis dominants, not so much.
Well, as a vagina dominant xD, I wouldnt say I care a lot.
I would say I notice them.
Depends on whether it's worth caring for.
I would say I notice them.
Depends on whether it's worth caring for.
Classy. lol
Before anyone starts with the "I'm not asking ENTPs" snark, please note that I swing between J & P, last test I took, I got 65% J. So consider me a part-time ENTJ.
Anyway, it's usually pretty obvious from the get-go.
It's the body language, dress, speech, verbosity or lack thereof, and curiously, casual behavior. For instance, the CEO may feel free to listen to Rihanna in his office (loudly, with the door open, the same song over and over and over and again...) But a lowly Research Analyst wouldn't dare do that. Because she hates Rihanna.
Higher-ups tend to joke around more, and speak more crassly. An AVP might not use the word "shit", but the EVP might - sparingly yet deliberately.
Schedules are another give-away. It's usually the middle management who work the long hours and weekends. The entry levels work the perfectly standard 9-5 hours, whereas the executives will come as they please, though sometimes on weekends, or whenever they see the need. They also tend to travel more and visit external clients.
As for "not playing games", I don't think it's a choice. We're all in the running. You can either just give up in the race and let others win your prize, or participate to enjoy the chase and the victory. Play fairly, but feel free to jump through any loopholes available.
Now I just sound hokey. I think I ate too much licorice. :crazy:
Anyway, it's usually pretty obvious from the get-go.
It's the body language, dress, speech, verbosity or lack thereof, and curiously, casual behavior. For instance, the CEO may feel free to listen to Rihanna in his office (loudly, with the door open, the same song over and over and over and again...) But a lowly Research Analyst wouldn't dare do that. Because she hates Rihanna.
Higher-ups tend to joke around more, and speak more crassly. An AVP might not use the word "shit", but the EVP might - sparingly yet deliberately.
Schedules are another give-away. It's usually the middle management who work the long hours and weekends. The entry levels work the perfectly standard 9-5 hours, whereas the executives will come as they please, though sometimes on weekends, or whenever they see the need. They also tend to travel more and visit external clients.
I respect those who can help me achieve my goals - they tend to be the top dogs, as well as a good circle of equals who exert a pleasant-neutral or positive influence on success, and as well as my subordinates who do their jobs to make things easier for you. I've been fortunate with this, but I think it's because I treat everybody with human respect and dignity - even the guy on the street who shines my shoes. I'm not afraid to admit that I do respect those up on top - or more to the point, rank and power. It's what I want, it's what's best for me, and if I was concerned about people and relationships, rank/power would only make it easier for me to assist them. With power and support, one has much more leverage. If I was a CEO of a known company, it'd be that much easier to raise money for scientific causes than as a working-class Joe Blow on his own, living from paycheck to paycheck.
As for "not playing games", I don't think it's a choice. We're all in the running. You can either just give up in the race and let others win your prize, or participate to enjoy the chase and the victory. Play fairly, but feel free to jump through any loopholes available.
Now I just sound hokey. I think I ate too much licorice. :crazy:
I don't mind other types chiming in, or even people to agree with my assertions. I just require data and you're all doing well.
In fact, this is useful. A question, with your permission. Do you as an ENTP(J), wish more to "play the game" or do you deeply desire to rise up to be seen better by your peers? For "social credit" or approval? (Of course material)
In fact, this is useful. A question, with your permission. Do you as an ENTP(J), wish more to "play the game" or do you deeply desire to rise up to be seen better by your peers? For "social credit" or approval? (Of course material)
In answer to your question Yes and Yes. I came to my job 6 months ago, and have always had my eye on the managers position. Im on my way to getting it too. The mature normal way, by doing my best working hard, and becoming indispensable.
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