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Holy crap, istp, you made me want to keep my phenom ii x4 machine forever.

Good ol time, eh. I remember wasting hours and days to tweak my fsb, multiplier, voltage, timing, even finetuning my fans to better follow the thermal dynamics.

Hmmm... but that ryzen 2700x does look juicy. That or threadripper 2920... add the upcoming radeon 590... or the excellent valuedl radeon 56.

But for ol time sake, i still don't have time to game anymore :sigh:

Sent sans PC
 

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Computers can do much more than game.
Sure, mike. That's why i still use my 9 years old phenom ii x4 machine. It's still work perfectly and plenty fast for all my current computing needs. And it already upgraded to win10 latest build. All is well.

I don't do render or encoding but if i need to do it, i just left the machine running on script overnight. All is well.

I very much agree to OP, he tried to persuade people not to be impulsive on technological purchase.

Sent sans PC
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #46
Holy crap, istp, you made me want to keep my phenom ii x4 machine forever.

Good ol time, eh. I remember wasting hours and days to tweak my fsb, multiplier, voltage, timing, even finetuning my fans to better follow the thermal dynamics.

Hmmm... but that ryzen 2700x does look juicy. That or threadripper 2920... add the upcoming radeon 590... or the excellent valuedl radeon 56.

But for ol time sake, i still don't have time to game anymore :sigh:

Sent sans PC
In my country Ryzen 1700 is 200 euros and i7 8600K is 479 euros. LMAO

RX 570 8GB is 191 euros, RX 580 8GB is 228 euros, GTX 6GB is 250 euros, GTX 1050 Ti 4GB is 173 euros. nVidia's and Intels competition only meant AMD's payday here.

In the end I don't really think you will miss anything if you skip this era. I tried Far Cry 5 and it's just nothing special. FC 4 or FC 3 were better.

BTW that Phenom X4 is still fine, if you have beefier graphcis card liek RX 580 you could try to ramp up resolution and settings and I think Phenom wouldn't be much of bottleneck.

I just want to ask, why did you call me ISTP?
 

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In my country Ryzen 1700 is 200 euros and i7 8600K is 479 euros. LMAO

RX 570 8GB is 191 euros, RX 580 8GB is 228 euros, GTX 6GB is 250 euros, GTX 1050 Ti 4GB is 173 euros. nVidia's and Intels competition only meant AMD's payday here.

In the end I don't really think you will miss anything if you skip this era. I tried Far Cry 5 and it's just nothing special. FC 4 or FC 3 were better.

BTW that Phenom X4 is still fine, if you have beefier graphcis card liek RX 580 you could try to ramp up resolution and settings and I think Phenom wouldn't be much of bottleneck.

I just want to ask, why did you call me ISTP?
It's a compliment. You know what you are doing, dedicatedly, in detail. I admire that quality.

That and the fact that we are in the same team. Hail red team!

Edit: show us your rig, please!

Sent sans PC
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
That and the fact that we are in the same team. Hail red team!
Sorry to say that, but after reading more about CPU architectures and stuff, I start to think that FX architecture wasn't well thought out. It seems like so many resources are underfed by data and the crucial stuff is just not up to task. And FX CPUs had AMD's long time problem, slow cache with long delays.

Well, at least I tuned it, so it doesn't eat much power and performs quite better. Maybe overclocking does helps to solve some bottlenecks.

Edit: show us your rig, please!
Not sure which one as all 4 computers I have have AMD stuff inside. I guess you meant the main one. You will not be impressed by what you see:

^inside

^It's just been maybe half year at best and the fan is like the, horror. Some 10 year old AMD heatsinks look better without cleaning.

^Scythe Mugen 4 PCGH with 2 Noiseblocker fans. That thing is a beast.

^All my cards. There are at least 4 cards: GPU, sound card, USB 3.0 card, WiFi card.

^Just look at those cables! Brings back bad memories to me. When I did cable managements for the first time. I overdid that to the point that this PC became a thing I wouldn't want to work on. I used more than 100 zip ties to clean up the mess. Sadly there wasn't big mess in the first place and I just overdid whatever I was doing. After this time I decided to never ever care about cable management so much, just using case features like holes to route cables will be fine next time. If you think this isn't so bad, then I can tell you I had to be way too rough with SATA cables and the other side of computer is even more 'organized'. I'm not sure, maybe it looks good to someone to look at manged cables, but for me it's a disaster in terms of usability.

^More cable horror.

^Obviously weird choice to do such thing.

^Shitty picture, but you can see that the case is something straight up from 2012s and if you look better, you can see dust patterns that built up over time. On top of the case is one 80mm fan, I cut out hole for it. Another thing on case is X360 controller dongle, I used to use it, but mostly don't use it anymore. The only games I tried with it was Dirt 4 and some games on Mild Velocity build. Tried Asseto Corsa once, but I didn't like how it behaved.

BTW this rig isn't retro, so it shouldn't be in this thread at least. I guess this time is an exception for off-topic.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #52
Nostalgia post of Bitchin' Fast! 3D 2000




But can you trust this man with his jokes?


The answer is no:




It's 2018 and this old card still gets more BungholioMarks than RTX 2080 Ti. You could buy one of these Bitching Fast! cards without any heatsinks, because heatsinks are ugly!
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
If someone was wondering how often branch prediction of CPU cache is correct, then it's about 90% for each level of cache.

The fun discovery I had is that we practically don't need fast memory if cache is working fine. As even at the worst case scenario of all caches mispredicting we would be at 1% probability, when CPU will waste quite a bit cycles in will have to work at abysmal frequency of 16MHz (speed depends on your specific system). So more and faster cache can have bigger benefits than faster RAM. Mind blown!
 

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Sorry to say that, but after reading more about CPU architectures and stuff, I start to think that FX architecture wasn't well thought out. It seems like so many resources are underfed by data and the crucial stuff is just not up to task. And FX CPUs had AMD's long time problem, slow cache with long delays.

Well, at least I tuned it, so it doesn't eat much power and performs quite better. Maybe overclocking does helps to solve some bottlenecks.


Not sure which one as all 4 computers I have have AMD stuff inside. I guess you meant the main one. You will not be impressed by what you see:
Ahh, thanks. Is that a coolermaster haf case, if yes, you are such a value hunter. Because i use the slightly smaller one, in red :eek:h: It came with bundled ps which are so reliable and more than enough juice to rock.

That beast scythe mugen is awesome indeed, kind of remind me of the megahalem.

Soo all your rigs are amd, haha, now i remember one of the reason why i haven't upgrade for so long was precisely because of what you said, bulldozers sucks big time.

I think i need to upgrade now to ryzen 2, simply for the reason of supporting amd.

If someone was wondering how often branch prediction of CPU cache is correct, the nit's about 90% for each level of cache.

The fun discovery I had is that we practically don't need fast memory if cache is working fine. As even at the worst case scenario of all caches mispredicting we would be at 1% probability, when CPU will waste quite a bit cycles in will have to work at abysmal frequency of 16MHz (speed depends on your specific system). So more and faster cache can have bigger benefits than faster RAM. Mind blown!
But intel's implementation on unprivileged branch prediction had come with expensive security costs with the meltdown, spectre and their newest derivatives emerging like bot spawn.

Sent sans PC
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #55 (Edited)
Ahh, thanks. Is that a coolermaster haf case, if yes, you are such a value hunter. Because i use the slightly smaller one, in red :eek:h: It came with bundled ps which are so reliable and more than enough juice to rock.
Well, no, but close enough tbh. It's Cooler Master K (knight) 280. I think it was more budget oriented version of HAFs. My original plan was to upgrade this prebuilt (yes it once was a prebuilt) and initially I wanted Fractal Design Define R4, but it was quite costly. I kept looking at Cooler Master N400 mostly, as it offered a lot at very low price. It was better deal than any HAF could ever be. But soon I noticed Cooler Master's K series. K280 was the cheapest case with everything I needed. So I saved a lot of cash and got good enough product. I could have bought even Cosmos II, but I just don't like spending too much money on stuff I almost don't need. Cooler Master K280 was a huge upgrade from noname Codegen Qori case I had at first (it even had 500watt noname PSU in there, I upgraded it to FSP 700 watt unit). It's probably laughable now, but a big thing to me was that K280 was the first case, in where I didn't have to worry about overtightening motherboard standoffs. In that Codegen I overtightened a few. Still in K280 I managed to overtighten a few screws, but it was much better.

That beast scythe mugen is awesome indeed, kind of remind me of the megahalem.
It is a beast even with bundled fans. But those two Noiseblocker fans are a nice touch for that huge cooler. They spin 400 rpm faster and give me around 30% airflow increase. That is quite a bit. I don't know if you know, but Noiseblocker fans are decent. They are from small German company, so that's why they are mostly unknown. Still they are very quiet and have good airflow. Signature feature is purple blades or dark brown blades. Der8auer sometimes uses their products too.

Soo all your rigs are amd, haha, now i remember one of the reason why i haven't upgrade for so long was precisely because of what you said, bulldozers sucks big time.
It just happened to be so that all my stuff is AMD, sometimes with some stuff from nVidia. AMD just offers much better deals than Intel, so I naturally my choice is AMD. And all PCs I got from other people are AMD, so yeah.

Bulldozers sucked, but later versions of them sucked less. Even then AMD FX 8150 somehow managed to be fastest CPU for a short time. At least Tom's Hardware says so. With some tweaking and their aggressive pricing, they sold quite well. I remember it was like i3 4130 vs FX 6300 and i5 4440 vs FX 8320 and at high end i7 4770K vs FX 9590. The fun thing is that AMD CPUs were always a bit cheaper in those fights. If I had to choose now the winners of each fight, then they would look like that: FX 6300, FX 8320 and i7 4770K. Even in 2014 it was hard to choose Intel due to lack of cores and IPC at least to me wasn't very convincing. In the end FX 6300 and FX 8320 aged much better than i5 4440 and i3 4130. I would kinda like to see what FX 9590 could do, but it definitely was AMD's madness of CPU. i7 just didn't required super expensive motherboard and insane cooling to do the same or more.


I think i need to upgrade now to ryzen 2, simply for the reason of supporting amd.
That would be a bit unreasonable. If you do work and want improvement, then it would be a big upgrade from Phenom X4, but just for supporting AMD? Nah. I personally don't think that Ryzen are well designed CPUs as they truly have to rely quite a lot on RAM. Good CPU wouldn't need to be like that. Their infinity fabric or whatever isn't well made to work cooperatively with cache and due to such deficiency you better have faster RAM. And in the end result is same as always for AMD. More slower cores than Intel, in such thinking they didn't improve much. Just that this time they have much lower TDP, but you can't overclock them much. If Intels weren't so overpriced, then the best CPU would be 6 core unlocked i5.

If you truly intend to upgrade, then I would advise to wait for next gen Ryzen. After all they are gonna be 7nm and AMD said they will have around 25-30 percent increased IPC, on top of that increased clock speeds. That sounds really good and after a long time AMD would be ahead of Intel. But I'm skeptical and I would just wait until release and some benches. Of course their pricing too.


But intel's implementation on unprivileged branch prediction had come with expensive security costs with the meltdown, spectre and their newest derivatives emerging like bot spawn.
But even after all that stuff and lots of patching Intels are still stronger in single threaded performance. Exactly where they are most competent in.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #57
The most insane air cooler, the Thermalright TRUE copper:


Due to full copper construction it weights a lot:


The whopping 1890 grams. Manufacturer doesn't even recommend mounting it horizontally as it can damage motherboard. Monstrosity.

Here's a review of it (it was the best thing around back then):
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2008/11/19/thermalright_ultra_extreme_copper_cpu_cooler_review/1

Worth mentioning that there was short lived trend of copper coolers back then, but due to obvious drawbacks like weights and cost they disappeared. I think that also they weren't that good compared to dual tower coolers, so copper coolers just died at that point.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #59 (Edited)


AMD Phenom II X4s reviewed:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/2702/20
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phenom-x4-965,2389.html
https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/amd-phenom-ii-x4-965-black-edition
https://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/pc-components/processors/amd-phenom-ii-x4-965-be-623177/review
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/phenom-ii-x4-965-be-revision-c3-review,1.html

Hall of Fame:
"A true return to competition" - Anandtech
"Phenom II is what the original Phenom should have been" - Anandtech
"The Phenom II X4 965 BE is a capable performer" - Tom's Hardware
"Delivers exceptional value in almost any discipline" - Tom's Hardware
"A great opportunity to pick up a processor" - Tom's Hardware
"The AMD Phenom II X4 965 BE is AMD’s fastest ever CPU, in every sense of the word" -Trusted Reviews
"At 3.4GHz, the 965 is clocked pretty aggressively, too. All of which makes it very competitive with Intel's cheaper quad-core chips. Add AMD's cheaper platform pricing into the equation and the deal only looks sweeter" - Tech Radar
"A solid quad-core processor" - Tech Radar
"This SKU is as good as its predecessor, and here's the kicker... when it comes to overclocking the C3 revision really is even better." - Guru 3D
"we feel the Phenom II X4 965BE is a really tasty quad-core processor for budget minded overclockers and PC afficionados, you'll absolutely like what it brings to the table. It's a product that makes a lot of sense and as such comes very much recommended - now with an even better energy efficiency and power envelope." - Guru 3D

Picture of Phenom II X4's die layout:


Pictures of CPU, stock cooler and CPU box:





@contradictionary I guess now you will feel even stronger feeling of this "you made me want to keep my phenom ii x4 machine forever". AMD you know, was:

A smarter choice.

Fun fact:
I had to do Ecology presentation yesterday and machine in that classroom had AMD Phenom inside. My high school had lots of Phenom II X4 machines in drafting class. Phenoms were awesome.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)


It's time to write about AMD history. Naturally question arises, why and the answer is quite complicated. In short this company is very dramatic. It has been alive for a long time, sometimes it was big, sometimes small. At first copied, tried to be competitive, grew and beat the giant, but never actually thrived and this post is dedicated just for explanation why.

Let's start with reading:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/04/the-rise-and-fall-of-amd-how-an-underdog-stuck-it-to-intel/
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/04/amd-on-ropes-from-the-top-of-the-mountain-to-the-deepest-valleys/

Another source of same story:
https://www.techspot.com/article/599-amd-rise-and-fall/

And just a little bit more:
http://fortune.com/2013/05/02/an-insiders-view-of-amds-war-with-intel/

Imperfect, problematic and complicated past of AMD has lasted for a long time. AMD was usually below Intel and we knew that. Yet in thread like this we still like to remember those times and all problems AMD faced. They fought and tried hard to stay relevant and survive and that's an admirable quality of AMD.

After-reading stage video footage:
[video]https://www.ted.com/talks/hector_ruiz_on_connecting_the_world#t-621032[/video]

AMD had very interesting CEOs:
Jerry Sanders was charismatic dude, who was enjoying his life and often leaving company to do whatever it wanted. He was a party man.
Then Hector Ruiz was a simple man, with good morality. He wanted to make AMD a quality brand and also offer affordable solutions to poor people. He wanted world to be connected.
Rory Read brought nothing new, but at least he pushed production of AMD a bit and didn't want AMD people's efforts to go to complete waste. He wanted the best.
Now Lisa Su is a a strong leader and she does the impossible, she is curing the underdog status as much as she could with strong goals, with lots of business opportunities and by clever organization.

So many attitudes, so many 'colors' in a single volatile company. It has changed a lot. Even if their products weren't always the most interesting ones, their inside stories definitely were. Their efforts, their passion, their fight for existence, relevance in form of thinking, planning and creativity. And the result of that is the AMD we have today. Full fledged company with many things to offer and nice stories about their inside work to tell. Well done, AMD.

Note: "Slingshot" book is available at Google Play store. It's not expensive (less than 10 euros), but also there's a free sample of like 1 fourth of it for free. The book has 208 pages in total and that's with intro, contents and etc, so it's not very long. If someone wants to read it, it's quite accessible. I bet that it's possible to find it for free on internet too.
 
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