[The Great One]

So I'm an ENTP 6, but very phobic and have a heavy 9 fix. It still drives me insane when I lose an argument, but am a lot less abrasive when arguing than the average ENTP. Many times I'll even back down from confrontation to avoid fighting. Do the rest of you phobic ENTP 6's do this? Plus, a lot of times, I will back down from an argument because I question whether I am right and don't have the confidence in myself that I will win the argument.

 

[Chipps]

Im not phobic nor am I an ENTP, but Im close enough to offer my perspective.

How is it that you come to get into these arguments in the first place? I can see a problem brewing a mile away. Do you usually strike first and initiate the argument or are you just reacting to the first person doing it to you?

I've found that when in doubt, retract and don't give a reaction and play the "aloof and cool" card and sweep it under the table. You probably get flustered and your anxiety is probably very apparent which is probably why you lose the fight. I know that if I can detect even an ounce of anxiety in someone when engaging them, all I have to do is turn up the heat and they'll back down, or get even more flustered and start stumbling over themselves. Maybe you're falling into that trap?

When I decide to engage someone in an argument, I make sure that my "case" is very strong. Air tight even. I come to court with the intent on crushing you, but I'm confident enough to admit that I'm wrong, or to not be upset if I lose.


P.S. I'm also 5'11'' and black so maybe that adds to the intimidation factor lol. :happy:

 

[The Great One]

Im not phobic nor am I an ENTP, but Im close enough to offer my perspective.

How is it that you come to get into these arguments in the first place? I can see a problem brewing a mile away. Do you usually strike first and initiate the argument or are you just reacting to the first person doing it to you?

I've found that when in doubt, retract and don't give a reaction and play the "aloof and cool" card and sweep it under the table. You probably get flustered and your anxiety is probably very apparent which is probably why you lose the fight. I know that if I can detect even an ounce of anxiety in someone when engaging them, all I have to do is turn up the heat and they'll back down, or get even more flustered and start stumbling over themselves. Maybe you're falling into that trap?

When I decide to engage someone in an argument, I make sure that my "case" is very strong. Air tight even. I come to court with the intent on crushing you, but I'm confident enough to admit that I'm wrong, or to not be upset if I lose.


P.S. I'm also 5'11'' and black so maybe that adds to the intimidation factor lol. :happy:

I was referring to debating a topic than a "full scale argument" that can lead to confrontation.

 

[Chipps]

I was referring to debating a topic than a "full scale argument" that can lead to confrontation.

Is your logic being destroyed or do you just get flustered after a while and fuck it up?

 

[The Great One]

Is your logic being destroyed or do you just get flustered after a while and fuck it up?

I have PTSD from violent confrontation, so sometimes it's hard for me to differentiate between an debate a verbal confrontation. I think that I am possibly taking things too personally. It's like any time I hear someone raise their voice to me, I get really fearful, and assume that it will lead to violent confrontation. It sucks.

 

[Chipps]

I have PTSD from violent confrontation, so sometimes it's hard for me to differentiate between an debate a verbal confrontation. I think that I am possibly taking things too personally. It's like any time I hear someone raise their voice to me, I get really fearful, and assume that it will lead to violent confrontation. It sucks.

Ah, I get it. Yea, sometimes a slight raise of a voice and put me on full alert and I put my hand on the sword to prepare for a fight. I've found that body language, facial expression, and overall demeanor can determine if its a challenge or not, though INTPs have a habit of passive aggressively making an offhanded remark that is a challenge.

When you hear the raise of voice do you automatically strike out at the person inciting a problem? If so, THATS what makes you look weak. I always wait for the other person to strike first, but its best to be aware that it could come. I noticed that when getting in a debate with someone, its best to focus on topics mainly dealing with opinions (because you can always so, "thats your perspective"), or topics you know well. Don't bother engaging in a debate with someone who knows say, religion, really well and is bringing it up just to make you look stupid. In those scenarios I completely change the topic to something I know they don't know but is more relatable to other people who aren't as vocal, but would agree with me and he ends up barred from the conversation.

Are there certain topics of debate that get to you or is it any type of debating?

Could the problem also be that you use Fe secondary? I know that sometimes there is a twinge felt (I attribute it to Fi) but I don't show it or react openly. I just become more guarded and like I said, get ready to pull out the sword.

Since you have PTSD and you're a phobic 6w7 it could be the anxiety felt during a challenge thats really fucking with you. I know that anxiety well because I experienced every waking moment for the first 15 years of my life. I think though that after a while of being anxious about something, you'll learn to internalize and control it.

Have you gotten help for the PTSD?

 

[The Great One]

Ah, I get it. Yea, sometimes a slight raise of a voice and put me on full alert and I put my hand on the sword to prepare for a fight. I've found that body language, facial expression, and overall demeanor can determine if its a challenge or not, though INTPs have a habit of passive aggressively making an offhanded remark that is a challenge.

When you hear the raise of voice do you automatically strike out at the person inciting a problem? If so, THATS what makes you look weak. I always wait for the other person to strike first, but its best to be aware that it could come. I noticed that when getting in a debate with someone, its best to focus on topics mainly dealing with opinions (because you can always so, "thats your perspective"), or topics you know well. Don't bother engaging in a debate with someone who knows say, religion, really well and is bringing it up just to make you look stupid. In those scenarios I completely change the topic to something I know they don't know but is more relatable to other people who aren't as vocal, but would agree with me and he ends up barred from the conversation.

Are there certain topics of debate that get to you or is it any type of debating?

Could the problem also be that you use Fe secondary? I know that sometimes there is a twinge felt (I attribute it to Fi) but I don't show it or react openly. I just become more guarded and like I said, get ready to pull out the sword.

Since you have PTSD and you're a phobic 6w7 it could be the anxiety felt during a challenge thats really fucking with you. I know that anxiety well because I experienced every waking moment for the first 15 years of my life. I think though that after a while of being anxious about something, you'll learn to internalize and control it.

Have you gotten help for the PTSD?

I know it's the anxiety that makes me like this. In fact, it's completely different when I'm under the influence of something. I used to occasionally smoke weed, and I never had problems when I was on this. I would just be very calm, and collect. The problem has to be internal, it just has to be. Another thing is that I was raised by an abused mother who just never believed in confrontation no matter what. Then, on top of that, I do think that Fe could have something to do with it. I'm often afraid to get into really heated debates because if it gets too bad, I could possibly lose a friend and I hate to lose friends. Going into a place where I have multiple enemies is terrifying to me.

For example, I would be much more likely to get into an argument with someone that I only see once than one where I have to see that person all the time. I am much more likely to be diplomatic if I have to see that person all the time. It would be a nightmare for me to have to constantly inhabit a place with someone that constantly causes a potential threat to me.

 

[Chipps]

I know it's the anxiety that makes me like this. In fact, it's completely different when I'm under the influence of something. I used to occasionally smoke weed, and I never had problems when I was on this. I would just be very calm, and collect. The problem has to be internal, it just has to be. Another thing is that I was raised by an abused mother who just never believed in confrontation no matter what. Then, on top of that, I do think that Fe could have something to do with it. I'm often afraid to get into really heated debates because if it gets too bad, I could possibly lose a friend and I hate to lose friends. Going into a place where I have multiple enemies is terrifying to me.

For example, I would be much more likely to get into an argument with someone that I only see once than one where I have to see that person all the time. I am much more likely to be diplomatic if I have to see that person all the time. It would be a nightmare for me to have to constantly inhabit a place with someone that constantly causes a potential threat to me.

So will you lose friend because you'll say something you regret when a debate gets heated or because you think they will? Why are you getting into debates with stranger? Is it just making small talk or are you taking anger out on them?


I've seen what happens to women who are abused , so it can definitely be detrimental to the child involve. The reason I probably didn't end up phobic is because the abusers were also related to me.

 

[The Great One]

So will you lose friend because you'll say something you regret when a debate gets heated or because you think they will? Why are you getting into debates with stranger? Is it just making small talk or are you taking anger out on them?


I've seen what happens to women who are abused , so it can definitely be detrimental to the child involve. The reason I probably didn't end up phobic is because the abusers were also related to me.

Most of the time, debates don't cause me to lose friends, but it has in the past. I hate to be wrong.

 

[paradanmellow]

I'm ENTP 6 phobic (I guess) and I sure understand the thing with backing down instead of doing what a stereotype ENTP is "supposed" to do, being assertive and on top of things, etc. I mean, am I myself or some MBTI description? frustration comes from not being able to be this ideal ENTP? that is silly but I sometimes fall for it XD; things turn against me, it's a vicious circle where I fear my own fears and lose the outsider's perspective
yes, I get mad about losing arguments simply because I usually don't engage unless I know I'm right and I've checked the facts in my mind several times before; then I get mad at myself for letting some big mouth go away with it when a little bit more balls would have sent them groveling for forgiveness (sometimes I do that and feels like the king of the world!); then again it's not worth it, that's how I reassure myself - there is no point in arguing with people unless they're "on your side", because you get nothing from it but more arguments

 

[The Great One]

I'm ENTP 6 phobic (I guess) and I sure understand the thing with backing down instead of doing what a stereotype ENTP is "supposed" to do, being assertive and on top of things, etc. I mean, am I myself or some MBTI description? frustration comes from not being able to be this ideal ENTP? that is silly but I sometimes fall for it XD; things turn against me, it's a vicious circle where I fear my own fears and lose the outsider's perspective
yes, I get mad about losing arguments simply because I usually don't engage unless I know I'm right and I've checked the facts in my mind several times before; then I get mad at myself for letting some big mouth go away with it when a little bit more balls would have sent them groveling for forgiveness (sometimes I do that and feels like the king of the world!); then again it's not worth it, that's how I reassure myself - there is no point in arguing with people unless they're "on your side", because you get nothing from it but more arguments

Well, it's the same process for me. I mean, I'll argue with a dumbass all day, but I find myself very intimidated by highly intelligent and abrasive people. They completely terrify me, then they throw my mind off track, and my arguing ability is ruined. It's like my mind goes to mush. I also want to make sure that I'm 100% right before arguing because I fear looking like a fool.

 

[LimeDegree]

Then, on top of that, I do think that Fe could have something to do with it.

I'm continually amazed at how much Fe you display, mine is extremely underdeveloped/atrophied.

I'm 6w7, so/sp/sx, but I'm Counterphobic. I would not be at all surprised if the difference in Fe plays a large role in our willingness to debate, and the phobic vs. counterphobic divergence. I'm a debate junky in my everyday, real life contact with others, it's almost a compulsion. I'm more likely to debate with someone I know really well, and less likely to debate a stranger. For me, the debate with a stranger can lead to danger, whereas debating someone I know helps me to evaluate them and see how accepting and agile they are.

On the other hand, I feel more secure having people around me who are capable of intellectual debate. So, perhaps I have it reversed, maybe being counterphobic is what determines my likelihood to debate strangers vs. known acquaintances. Also, maybe being counterphobic impacts my use of Fe.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on these two possible correlations of Fe/counterphobic/phobic interaction.

 

[The Great One]

I'm continually amazed at how much Fe you display, mine is extremely underdeveloped/atrophied.

I'm 6w7, so/sp/sx, but I'm Counterphobic. I would not be at all surprised if the difference in Fe plays a large role in our willingness to debate, and the phobic vs. counterphobic divergence. I'm a debate junky in my everyday, real life contact with others, it's almost a compulsion. I'm more likely to debate with someone I know really well, and less likely to debate a stranger. For me, the debate with a stranger can lead to danger, whereas debating someone I know helps me to evaluate them and see how accepting and agile they are.

On the other hand, I feel more secure having people around me who are capable of intellectual debate. So, perhaps I have it reversed, maybe being counterphobic is what determines my likelihood to debate strangers vs. known acquaintances. Also, maybe being counterphobic impacts my use of Fe.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on these two possible correlations of Fe/counterphobic/phobic interaction.

I don't know really. You also have to take into consideration that I was raised by two parents with a heavy 9 fix and heavy Fe. I've always felt like inside, I am a much more confrontational person, but yet my parents refused to let that confrontation sprout out. Also, I'm a social 6 and get security through the group. I don't want to anger the group, or I feel like I lose my safety. I've concluded that I'm an extremely unhealthy ENTP. Don't get me wrong though: I love to debate with people, just to the point where I piss them off so much that I lose them as a friend

 

[Paradigm]

I'm another NT phobic 6 and, honestly, hate arguing. There's many reasons, but the biggest being that many arguments end up in ad hominems or a semantic war and that's not really worth my time, effort, or emotional upheaval. And in my experience, most things I say in an argument aren't going to be met with an open mind, which makes it even less worthwhile.

Debating is fun/useful only if both parties are aware it's little more than an exchange of ideas. Otherwise the above happens and it gets too personal.

I do stand up for the "important stuff," but generally it's in a "state my viewpoint and get out" kind of way.

For me it's a mix of 6 SP "protection of self" and 1ish "I'm better than you for controlling my anger." I'll admit sometimes it's a bit of an ego boost, even if it's an unhealthy boost. >_>

EDIT: Oh, you mentioned the confidence thing. I get that, too, partly because I have a hard time translating my thoughts into words on the fly and I'm really bad at details.

 

[Havok]

I find that in a argument I tend to be more on the attack and are very Agressive and get my point across strong and meaningful.

 

[grizzlyy]

Not sure if I am phobic or counter-phobic. I do, however dislike arguing to argue. I use arguing as a method of teasing or to get people to think beyond their perspective, usually. As for confrontation... when it deals with emotional issues I am passive (or passive-agressive... meh) as hell. Most of the time I am still figuring out what I am feeling and don't feel confident in dealing with the issue with people.. I don't like to talk about feelings. Anything beyond the touchy-subjective scope I can confront without hesitation.

 

[mythirl]

I'm an ENTP 6w5 I'm not aggressive but I'm argumentative, to me an argument is fun I don't really think of it as a bad thing until it gets very aggressive whether or not I back down depends on the situation normally I'm willing to find a comprise and thats the end of that. Mostly though I don't cause serious fights because I like to keep my bridges open again though it depends on situation.