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Once upon a time, there was an aggressive lady named Naked Nancy. She wasn't naked all the time, however. It took a lot of provoking to get her to chase after you naked. One time, this happened at the donut shop. Nancy wanted to purchase two dozen donut holes because her in-laws were coming to town. She walked down to the donut shop pleasantly enough, smiling & nodding to passersby the way neighbors sometimes do. But when she got to the donut shop, the shop was all out of holes!

"You can buy a half a dozen glazed donuts and cut them into quarters," said the shopkeeper.

But it was too late, and Nancy was pissed. Once she started to get frustrated, there was no talking her out of it. Wheels had been set in motion. All of a sudden, amid the coffee and apple fritters, the glazed old-fashioneds and the maple bars with custard, the elders who sat in the shop reading their newspapers every morning were treated to a dazzling sight: Naked Nancy's naked, naked, naked body.

"Holes!" she roared. "Holes!!! Do you know what they are? I'll show you what a fucking HOLE is, you fucking ASSHOLES!!!"

With that, Naked Nancy scrambled up onto the counter, stomped up and down in front of the elderly men who were simply there minding their own business, kicked over a lady's lukewarm coffee onto the floor, and showed them the ugliest, baldest pussy you've ever seen.

It looked like one of those sphynx cats.



"Okay, okay, miss," said one brave old man. (He was a WWII veteran and had seen all kinds of pussy in France. He had no fears left in him anymore.) "Holes. You got 'em." And with that, he winked at the shopkeeper, pulled out a crispy $50 bill and dropped it in the tip jar.

But the shopkeeper had other ideas. "Get out of my shop!" screamed the scandalized shopkeeper. "Get out!!!!!"

Naked Nancy started to cry. "I just wanted donut holes," explained Nancy.

The shopkeeper called the police. The police usually parked at the other donut shop, because it had a parking lot, and better donuts.

Mike the Cop strutted right in like he knew the place. In fact, he had been raised there; it was this very shop to which his grandparents used to bring him to get a raspberry jelly donut & a carton of milk. Mike was right at home here.

"What seems to be the problem," Mike drawled.

"Well, you see," reasoned the WWII vet, "this naked lady simply wanted to come here on a nice Sunday morning for some donut holes."

"I see," Rookie Mike folded his arms, trying to look like a serious, professional, & seasoned cop.

"She can't be naked in here," the shopkeeper emphatically stated. "I have a business to run."

"Give me two raspberry jelly donuts, a cup of coffee, & a carton of milk," Mike smiled, changing the subject.

The shopkeeper fulfilled his order & put it on Mike's running tab. It was illegal in this town for donut shops to give freebies to cops, but they got around this by keeping a tab, and around the holiday season a generous person would always go around paying the cops' tabs.

Naked Nancy, angry that she was losing her audience, grabbed Mike's donuts & stuffed them in her angry holes. Then she grabbed the cup of coffee right out of his hands, poured it over his balding head, & screamed, "Fuck you all!!! Fuck all of your skanky donuts!!! FUCK the president, fuck Nixon, and fuck all of your fucking donut holes. I'm gonna sue you!!! I'm gonna fucking sue your pants off!!!"

Remarkably, at that very moment, Mike's pants actually did split, & his underwear showed out the back. This didn't prevent him from heroically hauling Naked Nancy out to the ambulance, where she was treated for shock caused by all the jelly donuts filling her private holes. Nancy survived the ordeal, and to this very day, she can be encountered attacking negligent shopkeepers for pissing her off.
 

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But when she got to the donut shop, the shop was all out of holes!

.....

All of a sudden, amid the coffee and apple fritters, the glazed old-fashioneds and the maple bars with custard, the elders who sat in the shop reading their newspapers every morning were treated to a dazzling sight: Naked Nancy's naked, naked, naked body.

......

The shopkeeper called the police. The police usually parked at the other donut shop, because it had a parking lot, and better donuts.
What the actual shit. How does a doughnut shop with an inferior product and no stock still have fritters and Krispy Kreme never does?!?!?!?!


This didn't prevent him from heroically hauling Naked Nancy out to the ambulance, where she was treated for shock caused by all the jelly donuts filling her private holes. Nancy survived the ordeal, and to this very day, she can be encountered attacking negligent shopkeepers for pissing her off.
I'm kind of intrigued with the logistics of this.

 
Very well written!
 

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I read a book about what attracts people sexually and what they look for in porn, the book is called "A billion wicked thought" if anyone is interested. People seem to think that it is gross and weird but apparently "Incest Porn" is one of the #1 most searched thing when it comes to porn.

It's no wonder things have become so extreme in porn. Just like drugs, it's something extremely addictive (To men at the very least) and like drugs, people end up looking for something better and better and better all the time. Because of that, porn producer are always trying to push their limits to make something that's above and beyond the last video they made.

It took me a while to realize that some of the things I was watching weren't normal and that I had an addiction to porn. I've been trying cut back on porn for the past 2-3 years but it's not an easy thing to quit.
 

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Porn has become more aggressive/degrading in the last couple of decades? False. People have been doing weird shit for a long time and it is only now with the internet that we can see it without much effort. I mean isn't there examples of aggressive/degrading stuff in literature? Back then you read about tentacle porn but now you watch it.
 

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So long as it's only featuring consenting adults, why worry about what kind of porn is out there? If you don't like it, don't watch it.

Why, why, why does no one make my kind of porn??? In my ideal porno, there's a lot of high-quality talking. A lot. Of. Talking. Setting is very important. Libraries, forests, maybe cemeteries (not sure about that one, though), etc. The element of surprise is essential. The actual sex can just be like the last 5 seconds, or maybe just be alluded to before CUT/END SCENE. You know it's getting hot and heavy when the talking starts to slooooooooow dooooooooown and they start breathing more heavily. And then suddenly they can't think of anything else to say, which astonishes both of them.

I just think if some of you intuitives wanted to start a porn production company with me, we could make a SHIT TON of money!!! I'm not even kidding about this!
YEAH! FUCKING YEAH! Let's just merge these two desensitizations and get some hot fucking necrophilia porn up in here!!!!
Sounds like movies such as Twilight might be your cup of tea AnneM? As for necrophilia, vampires are technically reanimated corpses after all.
 
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Haven't watched enough to be able to tell. But I'll say this - most porn videos just leave me feeling "THIS gets someone off???" Especially those zooming in on genitals. Who wants to watch genitals when you've got things like eyes, boobs, faces, boobs, butts, boobs, hips, boobs, legs and bewbs??? Plus it's a distinctive turn-off when the couple aren't really into each other, which covers 95+ % of professional porn. There's amateur stuff with real feels but rarely with good quality video.
 

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There's amateur stuff with real feels but rarely with good quality video.
Amateurs use full 4k nowdays. Check the "verified amateur"-box while visiting 'pornhub community' for example.
 
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Amatuers use full 4k nowdays.
...and avoid showing their faces. Which makes the videos completely pointless to me... Can't tell what they really feel without seeing their eyes. If you know of a site with good-quality amateur videos where you see all of them, do share.
 

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Sounds like movies such as Twilight might be your cup of tea AnneM?
Uuuh.....you are forgiven for that comment, because I love you. But never say it again. :laughing:
 

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But I'll say this - most porn videos just leave me feeling "THIS gets someone off???"
I have wondered the same thing myself. However, I prefer there being a wide variety of porn to cater to people's sexual fantasies/fetishes rather then just a few types of porn that some "moral authority" thinks is appropriate.

Uuuh.....you are forgiven for that comment, because I love you. But never say it again. :laughing:
I didn't mean to insinuate you're some sort of closeted Edward Cullen fangirl. :wink:

In my defense, Twilight is the only romance novel series I'm aware of that were made into movies which also happens to feature vampires.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Porn has become more aggressive/degrading in the last couple of decades? False. People have been doing weird shit for a long time and it is only now with the internet that we can see it without much effort. I mean isn't there examples of aggressive/degrading stuff in literature? Back then you read about tentacle porn but now you watch it.
You're right, maybe I should rephrase it to: aggressive/degrading shit has become more prevalent and/or easy to find accidentally (i.e. I don't go looking for choking but it's in every other video. Same with pissing on people and the such).

Self-tagging is an issue I think, if you use popular tags on your video is likely to make it on the featured videos. And if enough people click on it, the website's algorithm will pick it up as a 'popular' video, even if it then gets a thumbs down or whatever. In fact many sites (Youtube included) don't distinguish between thumbs up/down; they lump them all together as 'Viewer engagement'.

I do wonder how much of it is really due to choice or not, but I do believe if you watch something enough times it gets 'normalised', and I don't think stuff like chocking/hatefucking should be normalised. I understand some people like them and that's fine, but this is akin to conditioning at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/25/fatal-hateful-rise-of-choking-during-sex

Glad to finally see someone in media address this because I've been wondering exactly WTF for a while now.
Thanks for the link.

“Face slapping, choking, gagging and spitting has become the alpha and omega of any porn scene and not within a BDSM context,” she says. “These are presented as standard ways to have sex when, in fact, they are niches.”
I find this to be generally true.

I've been watching porn since the late 90s and I'm no prude; I've done stuff people may find extreme.

And yet, I find that the prevalence for these sort of acts has become abnormally high as of late.
 

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I do wonder how much of it is really due to choice or not, but I do believe if you watch something enough times it gets 'normalised', and I don't think stuff like chocking/hatefucking should be normalised. I understand some people like them and that's fine, but this is akin to conditioning at this point.
I'm gonna try and push the subject to not just an empirical claim but the underlying issue we might have should we find it (aggressive/violent porn) prolific.
The concern I imagine implicit in such a focus is the effect it has on viewers.
http://web.mit.edu/sgrp/2008/no2/EatonSAPF.pdf
The argument concludes that, by harnessing representations of women’s subordination to a ubiquitous and weighty pleasure, pornography is especially effective at getting its audience to internalize its inegalitarian views. This argument trades on a conviction dating back to Aristotle that still has currency in the philosophy of art today, namely, that understanding and appreciating representations often requires an imaginative engagement that can have lasting effects on one’s character.16 Many representations enlist from their audience emotional responses that are ethically relevant. In so doing, they activate our moral powers and enlarge our ethical understanding by training our emotions to respond to the right objects with the proper intensity. Such representations not only affect the audience during actual engagement with the representation but may also have lasting effects on one’s character by shaping the moral emotions. A similar conviction appears to underlie modern-day sex therapy, where pornographic representations are prescribed in order to mold patients’ sexual inclinations and thereby treat various sexual dysfunctions.

If representations can in this way improve one’s character, then we should also expect them to be capable of deforming it by “perverting the sentiments of the heart,” as Hume puts it.17 Antiporn feminists hold that pornography perverts the emotional life of its audience by soliciting very strong positive feelings for situations characterized by gender inequality and in so doing plays a role in sustaining and reproducing a system of pervasive injustice.
The prescription of the author of the above anti-porn position is not opposed to porn entirely but emphasizes that it seems plausible that a lot of porn has content with problematic ethical impact in regards to what sort of sexuality it promotes as desirable.
In doing so she also rebukes very crude and simplistic criticisms that have already been gone over in the past like comparing anti-porn positions to that of those who blame video games in a simple causal model.
Probabilistic causation is a defensible, practical, and common conception of cause that any sensible APF should adopt.57 It’s not only the conception of causation accepted and employed in all areas of science,58 but it also fits our ordinary uses of the term ‘cause’: when we say, for example, that smoking causes cancer, we mean that the first phenomenon significantly raises the chances of the other. The fact that smoking does not guarantee cancer and other diseases does not undermine a causal connection between smoking and ill health effects.
And I would also emphasize how such things seem to have some impact on what sort of desires are cultivated as seen prominently in the example of sex workers who have to tailor themselves to such fantasies.
The sexual desire might be very basic but it has a specific social form.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/works/needs.htm
Even the prostitute uses skills and techniques which are socially acquired, without which she could not satisfy the fantasies and desires of her clients,
...
This is less obvious in the case of the prostitute, but the fact is that the sexuality of her customers is produced by modern society, particularly its movies and advertising in combination with the general sexual mores of society and she must adapt herself to this sexuality if she is to labour successfully.
The point about social form being evident in all sorts of things where they have changed across time whilst still retaining the same biological driven basis.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/psychological-systems.htm
We have no reason to assume that the human brain underwent an essential biological evolution in the course of human history. We have no reason to assume that the brain of primitive man differed from our brain, was an inferior brain, or had a biological structure different from ours. All biological investigations lead us to assume that biologically speaking the most primitive man we know deserves the full title of man. The biological evolution of man was finished before the beginning of his historical development. And it would be a flagrant mixing up of the concepts of biological evolution and historical development to try to explain the difference between our thinking and the thinking of primitive man by claiming that primitive man stands on another level of biological development. The laws of dreaming are the same everywhere, but the role which the dream fulfills is completely different and we will see that such a difference not only exists between, let us say, the Kaffir and us. The Roman believed in dreams as well, although he would not say in a difficult situation “I will dream about it,” – because he stood on another level of human development and would solve the matter, in the words of Tacitus, “with arms and reason and not like a woman through a dream.” The dream was a sign for him, an omen. The Roman did not begin something when he had had a bad dream about it. In the Roman, the dream had another structural connection with other functions.
Although we might think of sexuality as getting so primal as it tends to shut off or diminish parts of our thought that is as judgmental or socailly concerned.
But is human sexuality simply primal? I am suspect considering how social our consciousness is in it's nature that we don't live as animals.
https://www.cla.purdue.edu/academic/english/theory/psychoanalysis/lacandesire.html
IVEN MAN'S RELIANCE ON LANGUAGE for entrance into the symbolic order (see the Lacan module on psychosexual development), it is not surprising that, according to Lacan, we are not even in control of our own desires since those desires are themselves as separated from our actual bodily needs as the phallus is separated from any biological penis. For this reason, Lacan suggests that, whereas the zero form of sexuality for animals is copulation, the zero form of sexuality for humans is masturbation. The act of sex for humans is so much caught up in our fantasies (our idealized images of both ourselves and our sexual partners) that it is ultimately narcissistic. As Lacan puts it, "That's what love is. It's one's own ego that one loves in love, one's own ego made real on the imaginary level" (Freud's Papers 142). Because we are working on the level of fantasy construction, it is quite easy for love to turn into disgust, for example when a lover is confronted with his love-object's body in all its materiality (moles, pimples, excretions, etc.), the sorts of things that would have no effect on animal copulation. By entering into the symbolic order (with its laws, conventions, and images for perfection), the human subject effectively divorces him/herself from the materiality of his/her bodily drives, which Lacan tends to distinguish with the term "jouissance."
...
Desire, in other words, has little to do with material sexuality for Lacan; it is caught up, rather, in social structures and strictures, in the fantasy version of reality that forever dominated our lives after our entrance into language. For this reason, Lacan writes that "the unconscious is the discourse of the Other." Even our unconscious desires are, in other words, organized by the linguistic system that Lacan terms the symbolic order or "the big Other." In a sense, then, our desire is never properly our own, but is created through fantasies that are caught up in cultural ideologies rather than material sexuality. For this reason, according to Lacan, the command that the superego directs to the subject is, of all things, "Enjoy!" That which we may believe to be most private and rebellious (our desire) is, in fact, regulated, even commanded, by the superego.
 

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I didn't mean to insinuate you're some sort of closeted Edward Cullen fangirl. :wink:

In my defense, Twilight is the only romance novel series I'm aware of that were made into movies which also happens to feature vampires.
Meh, I'm really good at generating my own dream men. Like, waaaaaay too good. Makes it hard for the real men in my life that my imaginary lovers are so fleshed out and detailed to a tee. I don't think I COULD rely on someone else's construction to get off. I'm way too particular. I'm like, "And this freckle goes there, and he laughs in the key of D minor, and he buttons his shirt wrong just like this, etc, etc." Not so much into vampires, ghosts, werewolves, and other beasties anymore. That was just my teenage phase. My libido has made its peace with human men.
 

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You're right, maybe I should rephrase it to: aggressive/degrading shit has become more prevalent and/or easy to find accidentally (i.e. I don't go looking for choking but it's in every other video. Same with pissing on people and the such).

Self-tagging is an issue I think, if you use popular tags on your video is likely to make it on the featured videos. And if enough people click on it, the website's algorithm will pick it up as a 'popular' video, even if it then gets a thumbs down or whatever. In fact many sites (Youtube included) don't distinguish between thumbs up/down; they lump them all together as 'Viewer engagement'.

I do wonder how much of it is really due to choice or not, but I do believe if you watch something enough times it gets 'normalised', and I don't think stuff like chocking/hatefucking should be normalised. I understand some people like them and that's fine, but this is akin to conditioning at this point.
I don't think those acts in porn are "conditioning" viewers. Each individual still has their own personal agency to click on another video. I honestly think you are too late because choking, hatefucking, etc. are already normalized and likely has been before you were even born. It's not like porn directors have amazing imaginations about what the next "kink" is. After all there is nothing new under the sun and sex is very much about exploration so I think choking, hatefucking, etc. have been going on throughout the entirety of human history and we are just putting names on them (probably have had several name changes based on the time period) due to a combination of each generation doing their own exploration sexually and passing the information along.

Not everyone learns from porn you know? I think people learn from a combination of first hand experience and/or sexual partners. You get someone experienced at sex and they will show you a trick or two. Considering that it's not uncommon for people to have a high number of sexual partners throughout their lifetime these techniques make the rounds. Hell you don't even have to have sex to get these tips, people will probably tell you if you ask. (or you could just be a fly on the wall)

Also just because you watch something enough times does not mean it gets 'normalised.' By that logic if I watch a bunch of UFC fights I should think it's normal to roundhouse kick someone in the head then ground and pound lol I know it's hard to believe but people do have common sense and many realize porn is embellished sex aka "fantasy." Not every guy is walking around with a 27 inch dick and many women won't be as attractive and/or slim as the porn stars. I believe many realize this as soon as you actually have sex and "reality" sets in.

TL;DR: Can't normalize what's already normal fam
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I don't think those acts in porn are "conditioning" viewers. Each individual still has their own personal agency to click on another video.
Just because you are free to click on another video doesn't mean you are not affected by what is considered to be popular. Say I'm 16 and I never had sex before. I'm not into porn but the 2-3 videos I came across all feature violence/a lack of mutual respect.

What am I going to expect when I experience sex for the first time?

Even if I'd never seen porn before and my partner has, how unlikely it is that due to inexperience I am going to assume that these acts are common/normal when two people have sex?

Let's look at it another way. You are taught in your History books a version of what's happened in the past. The popular brand of ethnogenesis for your country of origin. You *could* do your own research and find out that a lot of what you read is in fact not exactly true, some things are exaggerated, some things are omitted.

However, aren't you conditioned to believe that your schoolbooks contain the truth and nothing but the truth?

I honestly think you are too late because choking, hatefucking, etc. are already normalized and likely has been before you were even born. It's not like porn directors have amazing imaginations about what the next "kink" is. After all there is nothing new under the sun and sex is very much about exploration so I think choking, hatefucking, etc. have been going on throughout the entirety of human history and we are just putting names on them (probably have had several name changes based on the time period) due to a combination of each generation doing their own exploration sexually and passing the information along.
Dude, do you even know what normalised means?

I'm sure these acts existed since times immemorial but for being prevalent?

I doubt it.

Not everyone learns from porn you know? I think people learn from a combination of first hand experience and/or sexual partners. You get someone experienced at sex and they will show you a trick or two. Considering that it's not uncommon for people to have a high number of sexual partners throughout their lifetime these techniques make the rounds. Hell you don't even have to have sex to get these tips, people will probably tell you if you ask. (or you could just be a fly on the wall)
Sure, but, likely, a majority do.

Also just because you watch something enough times does not mean it gets 'normalised.' By that logic if I watch a bunch of UFC fights I should think it's normal to roundhouse kick someone in the head then ground and pound lol I know it's hard to believe but people do have common sense and many realize porn is embellished sex aka "fantasy." Not every guy is walking around with a 27 inch dick and many women won't be as attractive and/or slim as the porn stars. I believe many realize this as soon as you actually have sex and "reality" sets in.
Bad analogy.

If I find myself in a UFC fight and I've seen a bunch of videos on it, giving me instructions on how to fight, you bet I'm going to use them.
 

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I believe it's due to culture. Many people use sex as just another drug to dull their senses. After awhile, they become desensitized and need more and more excitement and novelty to get that high they're looking for. The internet has simply given these people an outlet and as we continually desacralize sex and the relationship between the sexes further deteriorates, we'll only see this trend continue.
 
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