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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I merely had fun with the title.

So, we may do this at different frequencies depending on Instinctual Variant Stacking, but have you noticed you may use charm in order to get what you want? For example, in order to be seen as what you want others to see of you (anything but your weakness) you may speak like this, move like this, make eye contact like this in combination with the way you react when someone you like speaks to you...

After which, you will wait to see if your effort paid off via their response to you. Will they smile at your smile, laugh at your humor, not seem to be in a rush to leave while with you, leave you feeling as if they're eager to see you again, not mind making accidental, or purposeful on your part, bodily contact...

I fear most of us, at least those that haven't integrated properly or at all, may attempt to let our charm do much of the work for us instead of consciously bringing an envisioned reality on with laborious efforts independent of our bodies' appearances or abilities. As a Social/Sexual 4 I have been sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo guilty of this, and I've only just caught on to myself.

It's possible that those that do it haven't noticed. I felt as if I was just using all I had on hand, at the spur of the moment. I currently work a job where charm and strategy are necessary.
 

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I always like seeing your threads. A lot of thought are always put into them. So much so that I'm always looking for them when I'm on the forum.

I'm an sp/sx 4w3 and I'm guilty of this too. I fear that if I were to go into detail we'd be here all night. This may have something to do with me being an sp-dom, but I don't change the way I behave or what signals to put out there to necessarily get what I want. I do it so I can cope with anxiety, stress and to stimulate the conversation.

For example, if I feel a little insecure about myself, or if I feel anxious to go to the store or taking the bus somewhere, I will put on a more confident act. Walk with my head held high, using my eyes more than facial expressions, and if I have more time on my hands, dress in a way that serves whatever act or impression I want to give off more effectively. This is not in order to get what I want out of others, it's a way of dealing with whatever I'm feeling. So if I'm anxious to go the store, looking confident always helps me deal with whatever self-consciousness or anxiety I'm feeling.

And in a more complex setting, for example when meeting new people or if I'm at a party, I put on the clown-y, goofy personality. Humor is my defense mechanism, and therefore the funny comedian is the person most people get to meet. It's the one character I put on that I have the least control over because defense mechanisms are largely unconscious.

I'm sarcastic, loud, theatrical, funny, quick at reacting and I always get the last word. This is the one character that probably fits more into the original question. Putting on an act or playing a character to get what you want. This is the character that has the most control in any group dynamic I find myself in. It's a great character, and I can play it well.

I can be funny and say a bunch of outrageous stuff and get away with it. I can comment on any observation I have and people will listen. People think I'm very charming in that character, but a lot of people think I'm weird or a little too extreme. Because it's not a subtle character at all. I'm loud, demanding an audience and I'm always visible. Everyone can see me, hear me and they all respond in their own way. And this is a way to get attention and responses from the other participants in the group. I put on a charming, funny and theatrical character and I get the attention and the responses I want. I know exactly what to say and how to say it to get the reactions I want. But this character is also the one I feel the most inauthentic when playing.

On the inside, when you get to know me better, I'm actually more intelligent. Because the comedian isn't smart. He's funny. And he's unemotional. He's egoistic and sarcastic. But who I feel I really am, and the one my closest friends get to see, is funny too, but I'm also intelligent, emotionally aware, considerate, kind, patient and warm. I'm the complete opposite of the character people see whenever I decide to leave the comforts of my own home.

I'm sure other 4s can relate to this, especially the 4w3s. Does anything I just make sense, or is it just a huge babbling mess?
 

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If I don't know someone well then I am always, ALWAYS very removed and deliberate in how I feel vs. how I act. It's sort of like I'm constantly observing myself, my behavior and my tone, which serve as wall to protect "the real me", though I wouldn't say I am always deliberately charming. Sometimes I compose myself to be very reserved or passive or intellectual or smart-alecky, or whatever else just helps me get through the interaction. It's always some image or another though.

But I think I know exactly what you do mean with the whole charm thing. If it's a potential new friend or romantic interest then I can take on very specific... mannerisms or tones, or expressions, and it's really not a conscious thing. It's a protection thing. I don't have Fe so maybe it's different for someone who does. I exert SOOO much energy trying to "get out" of myself, to me it feels like I'm putting on this huge show but to others I probably just barely seem like a normal, social person. Baaah. Then of course, like you say, I don't spend a lot of time cultivating those traits or making those changes from within. I don't know how or where I would start, and when I reflect, there's the emptiness and the boringness. Which makes me want to try even harder to mask it and present a certain way.

And then I don't make real friendships very often because I'm scared to actually reveal anything substantial about myself. Maybe there is no substance to me, really, is how I'm feeling lately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
@Transcendence I'm ever on a mission to get somewhere. I'll say it: the 4 in me purred at the acknowledgement there, bro. So, you can put on appearances like I. As SX-supporting guys I think we not only don certain characteristics, as 4s do, imo, but we use it to interact and seek out the best aesthetic action in a crowd (even if our display makes them come to us). With your SP first, I suppose your experience would be more on the end of becoming comfortable, going especially for what 'action' your SX can scare up for you.

Gaining rapport is my goal as SOC-dom. If I were in that situation at some shindig, I would use my charm to pick out the best group, or individual while also being mindful of the group around me. I've really put in work to get person(s) to trust me, so my charm can really fluctuate like mad: being goofy, smooth or flatlining out. I'm not pretty when I'm flatlining.

Closing Thought: Maybe the charm quality is just an SX-dom-supporting thing. Maybe an SX-inferior 4 would be motivated, as a 4, to be seen in a light they like, but have no "charm" to speak of? That sounds odd. It's seeming like the type 4 is correlating, in my mind, to the Sexual variant..

Being manipulative to get what we want? Is that really the main question? I must be missing something.
I would reword your statement to say we manipulate ourselves in order to incite a certain reaction out of others. Charm, basically. People use charm to get what they want: sex, money, attention, friends, security, and so on. 4s are quite good at trying on features to "find themselves." I think it's less about finding the self and more about attracting others.

@spectralsparrow Do you relate at all to Transcendence? I'm thinking of the Instinctual Variant Stacking you share in this case.

I think I know exactly what you do mean with the whole charm thing. If it's a potential new friend or romantic interest then I can take on very specific... mannerisms or tones, or expressions, and it's really not a conscious thing. It's a protection thing. I don't have Fe so maybe it's different for someone who does.
So, for SP-doms it may be out of a need for protection... With my experience, learning about it is giving me ideas of how to turn off the charm so I can "earn" something on my own power, and not my looks, or something. I find I am able to turn it off, but it takes practice. I become more...persuasive, rather than batting eyelashes 'n shit. lol Since I'm SOC-dom, and I'm more concerned about gaining a desired someone's camaraderie, it may give me some leeway in gaining camaraderie in another way, mentally, which is through getting beyond my body. Do you relate at all? If not, it's possible it really is a SOC-dom 4 thing...
 
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So, we may do this at different frequencies depending on Instinctual Variant Stacking, but have you noticed you may use charm in order to get what you want? For example, in order to be seen as what you want others to see of you (anything but your weakness) you may speak like this, move like this, make eye contact like this in combination with the way you react when someone you like speaks to you...
I would never use charm to get what I wanted or to get others to see me a different way. That would be lying to myself and to others. And I would see others as fake who use that approach. I want to be seen for who I am. For me it's about "this is who I am," and if they don't like that...oh well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I would never use charm to get what I wanted or to get others to see me a different way. That would be lying to myself and to others. And I would see others as fake who use that approach. I want to be seen for who I am. For me it's about "this is who I am," and if they don't like that...oh well.
So, what makes you a 4?

It does sound like you care much about how you're seen: you want to be seen for who you are. However, that entails that you have that image to keep up. I'm sure you aim to solidify your identity through some pursuits of either technical or impressional impact (if not, you may not be a 4). So, in that sense, if people don't like what they see of you, with that work that you put into yourself, it must affect you if you want to be seen for who you are.

For, if it didn't affect you, then you wouldn't care how you're seen at all by others.

To charm is, to my understanding, a part of what a 4 must do. They're highly concerned about not being good enough to fit some 'greater view/outlook.' They work in order to fit that (instead of accepting their humanities), and that's where the feelings of inauthenticity can come in.
 

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@spectralsparrow Do you relate at all to Transcendence? I'm thinking of the Instinctual Variant Stacking you share in this case.



So, for SP-doms it may be out of a need for protection... With my experience, learning about it is giving me ideas of how to turn off the charm so I can "earn" something on my own power, and not my looks, or something. I find I am able to turn it off, but it takes practice. I become more...persuasive, rather than batting eyelashes 'n shit. lol Since I'm SOC-dom, and I'm more concerned about gaining a desired someone's camaraderie, it may give me some leeway in gaining camaraderie in another way, mentally, which is through getting beyond my body. Do you relate at all? If not, it's possible it really is a SOC-dom 4 thing...

Yes, I relate in many ways to what @Transcendence said. "I do it so I can cope with anxiety, stress and to stimulate the conversation." "It's a way to get me through what I'm feeling at the moment." That's pretty much entirely what it is for me.

Perhaps it's the difference in wing, but although I'm very self-conscious about my appearance I do not really dress a certain way or rely too much on my appearance to present a certain image. I mean, I put some effort into my appearance when I'm going out somewhere ~social~, sometimes a lot of effort, but it's mostly to hide flaws or just look attractive in general. What I wear doesn't matter much as long as it's flattering. More often than not I'm just concerned that it doesn't look BAD, as opposed to being concerned that it looks GOOD. If that makes sense.

But then again, funny thing is, I don't want to be seen as someone who puts tons of emphasis on physical appearance or fashion, so maybe I'm still just in some ways playing to an image. Not entirely. I really DON'T care much about fashion but I'm also proud of that fact.

Anyway, with regards to this:

Gaining rapport is my goal as SOC-dom. If I were in that situation at some shindig, I would use my charm to pick out the best group, or individual while also being mindful of the group around me. I've really put in work to get person(s) to trust me
and

I'm more concerned about gaining a desired someone's camaraderie, it may give me some leeway in gaining camaraderie in another way, mentally, which is through getting beyond my body
Yeah, I don't know that "establishing rapport" is ever my goal, at least not within a group. One - on - one, yes, sure. But it's more about being likable in the moment, often to get me through said moment, as opposed to being "trusted". Which does sound very sp vs so to me, which is something I thought about when writing my initial response but didn't include it for whatever reason.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by gaining camaraderie mentally vs through your body, do you mean like through wit and humor and intellectual connection? Because I would actually say I rely primarily on connecting in those way, as opposed to through my body/appearance, yet I'm constantly very aware of how my appearance/mannerisms/body language influence that mental connection... if that makes sense.

My role in these situations is usually... I am someone who seems gentle and mild-mannered on the outside, and I've been told I seem innocent (whatevs, lol... I would say I am concerned with seeming approachable and unassuming, maybe that translates to innocent-like), but then when you talk to me I'm very attentive to you, perceptive, quick to respond (not to my environment but to the other person), mentally prepared (to make jokes, to be able to talk about any topic at all, etc), humorous and in good spirits. I've also been told I seem sweet but I don't know that I strive for that in particular so much as... affable and non-mean? lol

Baaaah.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It's not charm...and this is not about what makes me a four. I was simply responding to what you wrote about charm, and I don't use it. So you can draw whatever conclusions you want.
If I'm not mistaken you ended by giving me permission to brainstorm. Sarcasm, I assume.

Don't misunderstand my intention when I asked that question. It wasn't meant to challenge your view of yourself. It was a straightforward question. I gave that subsequent explanation to provide some framework as to my process. You know, to detail where I'm coming from so it doesn't seem to be out of nowhere. I feel it to be accurate, so my pride in it may have come off as invasive. Forgive me if it was taken as an attack.

At any rate, my theory on 4s was as read, and it was partly how I came to my conclusion about charm. I appreciate your response, and ask that you consider my perspective again. If it doesn't fit, I would like to know why. If you don't wish to disclose, it's up to you. I wouldn't want you to think my perspective is fakeness when it's more about relating to people for survival, and making use of what is gained.
 

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I'm thinking this might be more applicable to 4w3 than 4w5, judging by the comments and by how I feel, too. Does anyone agree? I don't think I use any kind of charm. It's more that I'm simply conscious of how I act so that I won't come off as weird (or feel that I come off as weird). I feel more comfortable and liked when I'm wearing makeup, though, and like spectral said, something flattering. Actually, I guess I use attractiveness as some type of manipulation of some situations, but only in conjunction with saying LESS so that I'm more liked. Like if it's a super quick encounter, sometimes I'd rather stand and look pretty and be quiet and polite rather than risk saying something I'll be kicking myself for afterwards. I don't know, I'm trying to think hard if I use charm in any way, and I can't think of an instance? Everyone must to an extent, though, right? Hmm...I'll keep thinking.
 

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Using charm for personal gain does sound a tad utilitarian and I do have a problem with that clashing with my personal values. Life would probably be easier on superficial levels to do so but I don't set out to charm anyone. I do joke around and try to put people at ease or if someone is interesting get into deeper conversations, but then the motivation is curiosity. It's not really to benefit personally. I suck at intentional 'networking' to be honest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
@username123 @Vanishing Point

This is from my thread, The Quirky Authenticity/Uniqueness Phenomenon of Enneatypes 4 and 5.

If you can relate to this, you may pinpoint where I'm coming from with this charm talk.

4s have an awareness of others that they use to make themselves more attractive. 5s aren't as concerned about such appearances. The awareness of others with which to benefit oneself may be a hint of the 4 in a 5, and vice versa.

A manipulable awareness of others peaks between 4 and 5: this area has a great deal of deliberateness and internal calculation to it, meaning alongside outer-awareness, there's comparable inner-awareness. However, the inner-awareness is biased rather than voluntarily wielded. It's as flawed as the elements in other Enneatypes' selfnesses/identities. 4s desire to model themselves after others' pleasing seductivenesses. 5s desire to adapt their thoughts towards developing a thorough guard. To sum it up, the 4 and 5 will work more intensely than other types to rearrange the inner self with what it observes subjectively on the outside.

Moving away from the 4 and the 5, there will be less of a fascination with self-remodification; 3 and 2 focus more and more on how to gain respect on terms of what others highly value as 'good' (4s more greatly balance this with the moldable, but still involuntary, internal self) and 6 and 7 will focus more and more on observing people and cues from their environments stimulating them to react (5s more greatly balance this with the same moldable, internal self). Towards the Gut Triad, it only becomes more structure-based/civilizational/conventional.

Thus, the overlap of 4-5 is strategical in a dual manner: on one hand, the 4 wants to achieve a supreme blend with certain human qualia, and on the other hand, the 5 wants to concoct a supreme, knowledgeable defense.
It's not a one-dimensional charm where one attracts in order to fool people and cheat on life. I'd say we use this multi-dimensional charm to convince ourselves, and others alike, that we are who we hope we are, and desire to be. It's out of a desire to appear wholesome, and not deficient.

One could suppose it's more 4w3 than 4w5 in nature, but 4w5s are still 4s, the 3s' neighbors, and so desire, in a significant capacity, to appear positively desirable (smart, beautiful/not hideous, etc..). Being next to the 5 makes all 4s appreciate how thoroughly we orchestrate our processes. I don't think the 5's proximity to us makes any 4 care less about appearing good or wholesome (which is why charm is ever used), but more intimate about the processes undergone, with the 3's proximity more intimate about how it gains others' respects.

So, it's either the effect (4w3) or the process (4w5) of appearing good or wholesome, with both wings being present within the person. 4s at our core, we're basically concerned about the same "Image/Heart-triad" motivations. 4w5s I know like being seen as competent, and can use "smarts" as a charm to be seen that way. Again, the charm isn't one-dimensional, but a means of convincing others or ourselves of our merit/worth/attractiveness.
 

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edit: I'd like to hear what @kaleidoscope and @Animal have to say on this. Especially on top-bottom dynamics of enneagram since I don't really know much about it.

One could suppose it's more 4w3 than 4w5 in nature, but 4w5s are still 4s, the 3s' neighbors, and so desire, in a significant capacity, to appear positively desirable (smart, beautiful/not hideous, etc..). Being next to the 5 makes all 4s appreciate how thoroughly we orchestrate our processes. I don't think the 5's proximity to us makes any 4 care less about appearing good or wholesome (which is why charm is ever used), but more intimate about the processes undergone, with the 3's proximity more intimate about how it gains others' respects.
Precisely. 4 is still an image type so they DO care about how they are perceived by others (even if a 4 says they don't care about how they look, they may still advertise this sentiment and thus, "care about appearing to not care"); 4s do cut-and-tailor their image accordingly, even if it isn't in the way that 3s or 2s do it—although 2 and 4 do have crossover thanks to growth/stress lines. A 3 will go for competency and precision; its image will probably feel more like a curriculum vitae; the 3 is more honest than people think—it can actually do what it advertises. Type 2s are subtle; they give-give-give and deflect attention away from their own needs—I notice some 2s talk about how they "own" a person once their charm has worked its way over them. 2s are power-seeking so the stronger their networking, the stronger their sense of acceptance and feeling useful.

I've been thinking about the top-bottom dynamic of the enneagram symbol (THE GAP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ENNEAGRAM). Specifically, that the bottom half is most aware (bottom=most self-conscious) of what's missing whereas the top half tends to be a bit oblivious (top=least self-conscious)—makes sense because gut types are known to be a bit unaware of their flaws, and the king of "there's no problem" is type 9's Sloth (whereas types 4 and 5 often define much of themselves by what they lack... hence 5's Avarice ["take everything and hoard it away... Power!!!"] and 4's Envy ["I want to take everything away from you and watch you cry; see how it feels for a change"].

Type 4's charm still has the "cutting-and-editing" of all the image types—type 4, I think, tends to go for something that will "pop" or help them stick out (hence, the uniqueness that often comes with 4 territory). Because they are the lowest on the enneagram, they are highly self-conscious, which creates a love-hate relationship with "performances." There is some degree of fraudulence to any performance, yet the 4 still yearns for appreciation and acceptance as a fixation.

As a compromise, since it doesn't feel like "playing the game" of 2 (flattery and histrionics) or 3 (resumes and marketing), it goes for something unique (usually).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For me, I do subtle things. A simple example is I want to be considered well-read and have a cultivated taste in literature. I do read a lot and like reading, but when I'm at school (I am in the sciences, so I like to "show" that I have non-science interests), I sometimes consciously leave my book—it's Ulysses atm, LOL—on the desk when I need to get up for a drink of water or whatever. It's something I'm totally "aware" of, yet I do it as a way of "showing off":

"Look how I can excel in the sciences while still maintaining a refined/sophisticated taste in literature!"

And that's probably the 5 proximity... 4's advertisement/image is often wrapped up in how cerebral it can be (more so for 4w5 but probably for w3 too). Bjork is probably a 4 with a strong line to 1 (my vote is 4w5), because she seems more accepting and at peace with the whole theatrical thing:

“Oh, you look so theatrical in your photographs. Is that what you’re like when you walk down the street?” It’s like, “Of course not.” It’s such a silly question—it’s like being theatrical is a crime. I don’t think it’s a crime. I think humans have always needed this. In rituals for thousands and thousands of years, they’ve put on shaman costumes and have had out-of-body experiences. I think there’s a need for the theatrical. It’s very organic and ancient and human. I don’t think it’s artificial.
 

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Have y'all thought about Sandra Maitri's description of 4's "introjection?"

It's the habit of taking bits and pieces of the people around you and incorporating them into your own persona - phrases they use, accentuations, habits, etc. That could very well create a kind of "charm" in the sense that it's actively selecting for (likely) appealing qualities. Please note - charm, not bullshitting, for which many of you have a long way to go.
 

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I don't use charm. Charm uses me. When I'm really into someone, I can't stop my heart from throbbing and my cheeks from flushing. I'm suddenly self conscious in ways I never was before. I feel exposed. I'm stumbling all over myself and can't think. All I want to do is crawl into his arms, or have wild animal sex, or know everything about him but I feel rude asking, so I putter around trying to think of something acceptable to say, and barely end up speaking at all. Some people find that helplessness adorable (like a wet mouse?), some find it oddly fascinating (like a bald peacock). If I manage to avoid conversing, I stare like a hungry tigress with my eye fixed upon the prey, studying his every nuance, seeking his tender and vulnerable spots, thirsting to pounce. The less words are involved, the more likely I am to seduce, because my body language and hunger speaks for itself, and yet makes no demands.

The rest of the time I'm comfortable in my own skin and don't think to chase or please anyone; however I am genuinely compassionate and interested in listening to what someone has to say... if I'm not, I won't talk to them beyond being cordial. So my honest interest in them, along with my openness and natural vigor, can seem anything from charming to clumsy. I need to take lessons from a 2w3 if I am to learn how to wield my charm rather than let my curiosity, ardor, and moods wield me.
 

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I do the same thing as Transcendence explained. I suffer from social anxiety, and forcing myself to put on my confident and charming persona (chin up, good posture, friendly face, etc) helps me deal with my feelings. Grocery shopping can be a big deal for me, so it's imperative that I feel good in nice clothes, nice hairdo and friendly face to be able to deal in a serene and calm mannerwith whoever might speak to me .
To say that I put on a mask wouldn't be correct, I don't think, because 'mask' seems to me like something that is not yours, that is fake. And my confidence and charm are not something that I make up, they are very much part of my personality, but they are only naturally displayed when I'm perfectly comfortable in a social setting (mainly with family). When I'm comfortable with my people, I'm playful and even frisky, aka charming.
Since I know what charm feels like because I am naturally charming and appealing when around my folks or sister, I just recall those feelings, bring them to the forefront and use them consciously to help my image at the grocery store or wherever it is that I'm going and makes me uncomfortable.
I've never used it to manipulate anyone. I'm thinking bosses, co-workers, ex-friends... and nothing comes to mind. But it is very possible that I might have, but since I can't recall it I probably did it unconsciously.
 
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Have y'all thought about Sandra Maitri's description of 4's "introjection?"

It's the habit of taking bits and pieces of the people around you and incorporating them into your own persona - phrases they use, accentuations, habits, etc. That could very well create a kind of "charm" in the sense that it's actively selecting for (likely) appealing qualities. Please note - charm, not bullshitting, for which many of you have a long way to go.
Thank you so much for bringing that to our attention....

Please note - that was sarcasm, not charm, that I was using.
 

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@username123 @Vanishing Point

This is from my thread, The Quirky Authenticity/Uniqueness Phenomenon of Enneatypes 4 and 5.

If you can relate to this, you may pinpoint where I'm coming from with this charm talk.



It's not a one-dimensional charm where one attracts in order to fool people and cheat on life. I'd say we use this multi-dimensional charm to convince ourselves, and others alike, that we are who we hope we are, and desire to be. It's out of a desire to appear wholesome, and not deficient.

One could suppose it's more 4w3 than 4w5 in nature, but 4w5s are still 4s, the 3s' neighbors, and so desire, in a significant capacity, to appear positively desirable (smart, beautiful/not hideous, etc..). Being next to the 5 makes all 4s appreciate how thoroughly we orchestrate our processes. I don't think the 5's proximity to us makes any 4 care less about appearing good or wholesome (which is why charm is ever used), but more intimate about the processes undergone, with the 3's proximity more intimate about how it gains others' respects.

So, it's either the effect (4w3) or the process (4w5) of appearing good or wholesome, with both wings being present within the person. 4s at our core, we're basically concerned about the same "Image/Heart-triad" motivations. 4w5s I know like being seen as competent, and can use "smarts" as a charm to be seen that way. Again, the charm isn't one-dimensional, but a means of convincing others or ourselves of our merit/worth/attractiveness.
Ok. One thing is though, I'm pretty open about my shortcomings. I don't mind seeming deficient. I'd rather downplay than exaggerate. Yes I aspire to be a certain way, but I don't know... I wouldn't pretend I'm there yet if I don't genuinely think so. I have an issue with that I suppose. It's wee fake. Never give the impression you can do something you're not able to deliver when push comes to shove.I'm not trying to be a 'holier than thou' ass, but you know I wouldn't want to try to convince people of something I'm not/not capable to deliver. Most people I know think I have underconfidence rather than overconfidence. I aspire to become 'non deficient', have lofty aspirations I perpetually fall short of, but I wouldn't want to portray myself in a way that would fool people in to believing I'd be there yet when I'm not. IDK :confused:
 
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