MOTM Dec 2011
That implies One would also identify with a negative self-concept. From the perspective of retroflection, they identify with a "good" self concept, even when they are self critical and not externalize their self-condemnment, they identify with the judger, not the judged. The doer rather than the done-to. In case of 4 it is introjected (judgement) and identifying with the "judged", the "introjected bad object". The done-to who suffers. The forsaken. The one to pity. The rescued...Yes, 1s and 4s are not the same...that is why they are different types. I am pointing out some overlap, hence the 4 connection to 1 and vice versa. 4s identify with the judged...it is a different side of the same coin in many ways.
No, and nowhere did I nor the OP imply 4s are angels.Does that mean they don't do anything to others? As Naranjo said about sx4, "hurt people hurt people". But they may not see it, or may downplay it, because they identify as "done-to": "Nobody suffers like me".
4s usually take some ownership of their own suffering, although it is not an empowering kind..."Nobody suffers like me" does not represent the complete feeling. The rest of the statement is "Nobody suffers like me because there is something wrong with me and they are 'normal'."
It means the issue is not pride, and to perpetuate that misunderstanding prevents the 4 from uncovering the real issue and resolving it. The accusation of pride will trigger shame and anger and all the defense tactics that go with.So, what does that distinction mean, whether they identify with it or not, or at core/surface, when we are discussing type descriptions/ behavioral traits?
The "You're a bad person" approach to criticism doesn't work with anyone.
I don't think 4s self-victimize anymore than any other type. Resisting one's own role in their problems is an ego defense in general. The way of resisting is partly what differentiates types.To stop identifying oneself as a victim may also involve retrospective awareness of bad behavior as a repercussion, and incongruency with ideal self may be the exact reason for avoiding that confrontation with if you will "ugly self", and in that respect block personal growth, and essentially clinging to this self-victimization. So I'm much more focused on dynamics and causal relations than definitions or traits, that in my view are not innate permanent states anyway, but conditioned ego states and mental formations and possible to change or transform.
I don't disagree with this, but it is also a mistake to think that feeling some shame always means "flight". The so 4 displays the most shame, and they do not do the kind of "flight" that an sp does. Instead, they wear it visibly to try and incur pity. I think sx/sp do use "flight", aka the push-pull, so as to avoid displaying shame. sx/so may dramatize shame so as to make it seem glamorous; it is not ordinary pain, but tragedy to almost be admired. Romanticizing shame is not the same as true pride, because it requires a negative self-image still. The surface over-inflation of self is very thin and easy to crack. Doing so isn't helpful to them.We are also not just one instinct so a certain mixed dynamic is likely. An Sx dom doesn't always "fight", but "fight" is not "flight".
Because they justify the negative self they identify with. Frankly, from personal experience, it is not that anger just overrides it. What was inhibiting you was shame, not healthy self-control, and once you lose the shame, it is not that you see yourself as good, but that you cease to give a shit. You are right about the hurt people hurting - there is desire to lash out and hurt. But that is not out of pride. That is spitefulness from someone who has lost all pride - they recklessly toss their reputation in a moments of emotion.You may think that, but that is limited to your own personal experience. I rely on "some" (Fauvres, Naranjo, Chestnut, a.o.) as well as my limited personal experience. But I'm not so much concerned how often, but why, if identification with negative self was.so obviously a "core" issue?
If something is not that frequent, then it doesn't define the type enough to consider it a main feature anyway.
Hard to identify or admit does not mean never identifying or admitting. Also, lack of identifying in oneself is not lack of revealing to others. We frequently reveal things about ourselves to others that we do not identify in ourselves, without realizing it. Hence, appearance of an sx 4 vs their experience of themselves concerning shame are two different things.I believe you yourself noted somewhere that sp4s may find it hard to identify their *core* vice (denial of envy). So why is this true for you for counter-envy, but not for counter-shame? (denial of inferiority). I think both can be understood in line with instinct.
While Naranjo is very insightful, I do not think he is the end-all, be-all of enneagram. Also, he describes poor self-image in more than just the trait structure, whether he uses the phrase "poor self-image" or not.I'm not saying sx equates to confidence or sp equates to lack thereof. Mind you, Naranjo pays only one 4 line paragraph to Poor Self image, but I think you blow it out proportion. For you it seems to be some innate and permanent trait that defines the type at the core.
:exterminate:You don't come across as someone who feels inadequate when it comes to understanding Enneagram.
I can agree with this, but an insistence of framing it as a pride issue is what I don't get. The core issue is not pride, even if the appearance of a form of it exists as a part of disintegration.Anyway, it's an interpretation of inner void experience. It's not a constant, but something that is conditioned, and each instinct has it's particular dynamic, and each level has it's particular intensity. 4s may not be aware of their envy, that is, having a negative connotation like pride (etc) also is, it's more explicitely a focus on suffering, on what they lack or mis out on, in comparison to others. Identifying based on what they are not or have not. It's not just disparaging themselves, or a deflated sense, but having no satisfaction or gratitude for what they are blessed with. It's not so much "ugly me" per se -of course that's possible, but that's just something this inner void is projected upon. It can also be "familiarity breeds contempt", what you don't have somehow seems more desireabe or gratifying than what you have or is viable. "Every time you think you got it made, it seems the taste is not so sweet". (paraphrasing Bowie).
Look at a 6 - being a risk-taking sx 6 doesn't make being fearless their real problem.
No, I think if they truly were unaffected, they would not get angry or defensive, and they do not take criticism calmly. That stems from it hitting a sore spot, that spot NOT being pride. Prideful people do not acknowledge affect so readily anyway; if they did, they'd be giving weight to criticisms.Not taking shit, like being critisized. You think they outwardly resist but start crying when they see their mummy?
Envy leads to self-loathing. Different route, same end. Envious people loathe themselves for envying.The anger that you direct at yourself can also be channeled in resentment towards the ones who outperform them or who done them wrong. But an sp (or so), or lets just day "the sp instinct of a 4" would less likely do that than the sx instinct, so this means more negative energy, more frequently, year after year, will be aimed at oneself, (more so for an sp dom than sx dom), as you say self-loathing. Which is not good for self esteem.
I don't disagree with most of what you say, just the weird insistence on connecting it to pride (as if it is a core issue for 4s), especially in relation to what the OP is discussing. There seems an agenda here unrelated to the topic at hand.I don't know him well enough other than his music. But I'm not saying that types are not significant as compared to instincts, but that instincts are more discrete than types. So, you already mentioned the line to 1, and we're discussing a type 2 vice. I think type is much more a spectrum, or "fluid" if you will. Like Sp avoids being engulfed where Sx seeks to be immersed, and "lose Self" (a precondition for fusion or merging, or trancendence).
With rampant mistyping, heaping more confusion onto the 4 type by ascribing them common 2 traits is not very helpful. I am very much convinced there is under-typing of 2s and 3s online. Discussing why a 2 might mistype as 8 (or 4 even) is far more interesting.... The 2 as "the helper" can be quite the misnomer.
In short, do 4s display something that could be called pride? Yes. This was addressed pretty early on in the thread. Is pride their core issue and is trying to humiliate them a solution? No.
The obsession with sx types is such a yawn too. Please start a separate thread on sx 4s so I can ignore it.