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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Nope, Ista didn’t make this thread despite the cryptic title.

I’m starting a new thread because I got cut short before I could respond to kikikins in this thread by Meanie pants McMeanie Promethea :p

Basically, the conversation took a turn of analysis vs feeling in the quest to find a suitable partner. Feel free to post your ideas/feelings on the matter.


kikikins said:
This notion of the "right sort of person" is tricky though. It promotes a tendency to constantly measure people up against this prototype that you have created in your mind without considering the fact that no one is going to be perfect for you. Logically building this nonexistent person that you deem ideal for you in your head is inefficient. This person doesn't exist for anyone, not just you. I think the greatest love is built on this mutual consideration of each others' needs and obviously compromise but also love is built on how that person makes you feel. How can one make another feel good and loved by way of pure logic?

I find people are less willing to compromise for your needs if you have exhibited an unwillingness to reciprocate such compromise. Your refusal to believe in the importance of emotional considerations is evidence of this unwillingness to compromise. It's basically saying I am only willing to compromise for the sake of logic however this isn't sufficient for anyone to feel loved and good from their relationship. If it really only was about logical considerations and practicality, people wouldn't be so dissatisfied with INTPs in relationships(least satisfied type in their relationships)

The most valuable thing I have learned from MBTI is not what my natural preferences are (my INTP) but what my unnatural more "rough" preferences are (my ESFJ). I wouldn't give up my rational nature for anything. I think it's a gift but sometimes that awareness of what's going on around me and genuine care of others' emotional responses is invaluable to functioning in society.

The first step is realizing that emotion and feelings are important factors in decision making and such factors really can be extremely rational if your goal is happiness (I presume it is). Cold hard logic can only get one so far but in terms of happiness; happiness in and of itself is an emotion, it's a feeling. Such a feeling can not be achieved by pure logic, it is much more ephemeral than that.
Allow me to say that you’ve read a little too much into what I said.

I never said that one should construct a list and check it twice when it comes to finding the "right person”. I simply stated that the right sort of person, roughly speaking, would allow us to feel comfortable and as a result alleviate some of the symptoms we associate with social ineptitude and emotional dysfunction.

You can tackle the problem in a far more organic manner by meeting people, going with the flow and seeing how comfortable they make you. You can of course compile a list of personality characteristic combos that work for you, along the way, but I certainly wasn’t suggesting you become a slave to it or even give it serious consideration. I think that around the right sort of person(tm) we tend to feel less inhibited which results in communication losing some of its formality and glacial pace.
We also become capable of feeling more freely, which allows us to engage in emotional ping pong matches(even if as INTPs we seem to be playing with chopsticks)

I haven’t the slightest clue what sort of personality characteristics would work for me, tbh.

I said I have trouble reasoning with the emotional considerations of others, that doesn’t imply that I don’t try. I try a metric fucktonne, but I’m still not very good at it.
Even when I don’t understand, if something is obviously important to someone, I have no problems with compromising(within reason, I won’t help them hide the body no matter how much it might brighten their day). I do prioritise the pursuit of truth, but I’m not incapable of weighing its benefits against the happiness of others(alas I have difficulties in affording myself the same courtesy).
I don’t really have a desire to “correct” others anyway, because quite frankly I haven’t a fucking clue of what I’m doing in life.

So yes, I’m aware that taking feelings into consideration is of paramount importance because ultimately our level of contentment has the final word in how we live our lives. I just suck at understanding the feelings of others, because I suck at the projection game.
 

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Not an INTP,..and at the risk of sounding very stupid and obvious,.. from reading these INTP boards, I've never had the impression that the INTP's here are dismissive of feelings as a variable in relationships and finding someone good for them. It seems you ladies and gentlemen are far too astute to ignore emotion and seem to factor it in,..even if it is a somewhat unknown quantity.
NF's for example are all too good at the projection game,.. extrapolating from bugger all, and reaching eroneous conclusions,.. Nt's are making 'educated guesses, probabilities etc,.. the point I'm trying to make is that no one, not even INFJ's are really mind readers,.. everyone approaches trying to find that elusive 'point of connection, or common ground' in different ways.
Truth should never be sacrificed to make someone feel better,..
Feelings should not be dismissed.
The truth as I've experienced it is this,..
Lists go out of the window when attraction and closeness is felt.
People will move emotional and intellectual mountains to keep that connection once its felt.
The connection has no ryhme or reason, is illogical in nature, and is only weighed against how much the person wants to keep it, versus negative consequences of keeping said connection.Its the X factor that makes the difference bewteen friendships based on very logical and beneficial reasons,.. and mystifying but very satisfying relationships.
Attraction makes strange bedfellows of people. :)
G. x
 

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黐線 ~Chiseen~
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I vouch you women set up a meet with Richard in real life and each of you give him a slap in the face until it sinks in for him.

Until then, words can only do so much over the interwebs viewed on a monitor. Strangle him if you must, but don't kill him. That's not the purpose here... but you're all convinced Richard needs a do-over. Might as well in person. In fact, label it something like "PerC Richards' Day" and officialize it.
 

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I vouch you women set up a meet with Richard in real life and each of you give him a slap in the face until it sinks in for him.

Until then, words can only do so much over the interwebs viewed on a monitor. Strangle him if you must, but don't kill him. That's not the purpose here... but you're all convinced Richard needs a do-over. Might as well in person. In fact, label it something like "PerC Richards' Day" and officialize it.
An excellent idea.
I propose a multi faceted approach to this.
Operation Richards Day..Codename Go Get Him Girls.
NT females PsyOps Dept.)
Line up to slap Richard, (gently now) whilst affirming his competancy at emotional reading.

INFJ's.. Counselling and Trauma Unit.
Will soothe the red marks, and lecture him into a suggestable state.

ENFP Shock troops
Come in with hugs and praises, shock and awe..

Last resort.. Buxom ISFP Ninja Assassin

Will straddle Richards lap and wriggle until he breaks and admits that he's actually a very cool INTP.

I'll go find an ENTJ to co ordinate it all.. wanders off.. whistling :)
G. x
 

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An excellent idea.
I propose a multi faceted approach to this.
Operation Richards Day..Codename Go Get Him Girls.
NT females PsyOps Dept.)
Line up to slap Richard, (gently now) whilst affirming his competancy at emotional reading.

INFJ's.. Counselling and Trauma Unit.
Will soothe the red marks, and lecture him into a suggestable state.

ENFP Shock troops
Come in with hugs and praises, shock and awe..

Last resort.. Buxom ISFP Ninja Assassin

Will straddle Richards lap and wriggle until he breaks and admits that he's actually a very cool INTP.

I'll go find an ENTJ to co ordinate it all.. wanders off.. whistling :)
G. x
That has to be the coolest thing I've ever seen.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
An excellent idea.
I propose a multi faceted approach to this.
Operation Richards Day..Codename Go Get Him Girls.
NT females PsyOps Dept.)
Line up to slap Richard, (gently now) whilst affirming his competancy at emotional reading.

INFJ's.. Counselling and Trauma Unit.
Will soothe the red marks, and lecture him into a suggestable state.

ENFP Shock troops
Come in with hugs and praises, shock and awe..

Last resort.. Buxom ISFP Ninja Assassin

Will straddle Richards lap and wriggle until he breaks and admits that he's actually a very cool INTP.

I'll go find an ENTJ to co ordinate it all.. wanders off.. whistling :)
G. x
That amount of stimulation in one day would more than likely kill me.
 

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That amount of stimulation in one day would more than likely kill me.

Yes, its drastic I know, but its kill or cure, Richard, :)
Plus, you should be thanking your lucky stars,..I'm just tactical advisor on this mission, not actually involved in the Operation,..be thankful for small mercies.... 0-0
G. x
 

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Nope, Ista didn’t make this thread despite the cryptic title.

I’m starting a new thread because I got cut short before I could respond to kikikins in this thread by Meanie pants McMeanie Promethea :p

Basically, the conversation took a turn of analysis vs feeling in the quest to find a suitable partner. Feel free to post your ideas/feelings on the matter.




Allow me to say that you’ve read a little too much into what I said.

I never said that one should construct a list and check it twice when it comes to finding the "right person”. I simply stated that the right sort of person, roughly speaking, would allow us to feel comfortable and as a result alleviate some of the symptoms we associate with social ineptitude and emotional dysfunction.

You can tackle the problem in a far more organic manner by meeting people, going with the flow and seeing how comfortable they make you. You can of course compile a list of personality characteristic combos that work for you, along the way, but I certainly wasn’t suggesting you become a slave to it or even give it serious consideration. I think that around the right sort of person(tm) we tend to feel less inhibited which results in communication losing some of its formality and glacial pace.
We also become capable of feeling more freely, which allows us to engage in emotional ping pong matches(even if as INTPs we seem to be playing with chopsticks)

I haven’t the slightest clue what sort of personality characteristics would work for me, tbh.

I said I have trouble reasoning with the emotional considerations of others, that doesn’t imply that I don’t try. I try a metric fucktonne, but I’m still not very good at it.
Even when I don’t understand, if something is obviously important to someone, I have no problems with compromising(within reason, I won’t help them hide the body no matter how much it might brighten their day). I do prioritise the pursuit of truth, but I’m not incapable of weighing its benefits against the happiness of others(alas I have difficulties in affording myself the same courtesy).
I don’t really have a desire to “correct” others anyway, because quite frankly I haven’t a fucking clue of what I’m doing in life.

So yes, I’m aware that taking feelings into consideration is of paramount importance because ultimately our level of contentment has the final word in how we live our lives. I just suck at understanding the feelings of others, because I suck at the projection game.

First off, thanks for considering my long, drawn-out, and possibly convoluted take on the issue and opening a new thread. I am sorry if it felt like an attack.:(

Honestly, I don't think it is about understanding emotions at all, I think it's the idea that INTPs may not place enough value on emotions despite acknowledging the existence of emotions and the power they may have. Like @nadjasix said, that negative thought-loop tends to over rationalize feelings into something like a weakness or a fear.
You speak of this "emotional dysfunction" and needing someone to "alleviate" it. Unfortunately, I think the only person who can alleviate that dysfunction is yourself. There's a clear causation issue that i see in this situation; is it your inability to find the right person who gets your emotional dysfunction or is it the fact that your emotional dysfunction is inhibiting you from finding the right person?

Finally, what do you mean by projection game?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
First off, thanks for considering my long, drawn-out, and possibly convoluted take on the issue and opening a new thread. I am sorry if it felt like an attack.:(

Honestly, I don't think it is about understanding emotions at all, I think it's the idea that INTPs may not place enough value on emotions despite acknowledging the existence of emotions and the power they may have. Like @nadjasix said, that negative thought-loop tends to over rationalize feelings into something like a weakness or a fear.
You speak of this "emotional dysfunction" and needing someone to "alleviate" it. Unfortunately, I think the only person who can alleviate that dysfunction is yourself. There's a clear causation issue that i see in this situation; is it your inability to find the right person who gets your emotional dysfunction or is it the fact that your emotional dysfunction is inhibiting you from finding the right person?

Finally, what do you mean by projection game?
Sorry if it seemed defensive, I didn’t perceive your post as an attack, I just wanted to correct some(apparent) assumptions.

We all mix logic and feeling to some extent. I just try to see how much of a person’s emotilogic(I can make up words) I can emulate before I diverge in terms of the conclusions I draw relative to those of the person I’m dealing with. When I don’t understand, I do my best to tolerate sentiments that don’t have dire consequences for myself or others.
It does seem that some INTPs disregard emotion altogether, they lack self awareness in the use of their own brand of emotilogic, and have no qualms in forcing their gospel down the throat of others. I think life slowly teaches us the error of our ways(perhaps to a limited degree)

I used the term emotional dysfunction because both you and Abysmal used it. I interpreted it in the social context as being the difficultly we have in deciding how we feel about certain types of interaction when time constraints are imposed(i.e partner bringing up the issue of qualifying your relationship or something similar, and wanting to discuss it there and then). The right sort of person(tm) can make these exchanges easier to handle.

When it comes to my personal issues, I don’t really consider the social perspective. I’m not really under the illusion that I need someone to come and make my life better, to alleviate anything. I was merely talking about how smoothly a social interaction for an INTP can go, depending on whom they are socialising with.

Many people have suggested that finding a person would help, I’m not necessarily convinced.
I’m not sure I share some of the social reservations I’ve seen on these forums, I’m in no way private and will talk about practically anything. If I chase people away, it’s probably because of my boring disposition due to my lack of implication in life.

Projection game = projecting value onto objects in the external world ==> having more to relate with others on ==> deeper emotional connection ==> understanding complexity of emotions evoked depending on a given context.
 

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黐線 ~Chiseen~
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When it comes to my personal issues, I don’t really consider the social perspective. I’m not really under the illusion that I need someone to come and make my life better, to alleviate anything. I was merely talking about how smoothly a social interaction for an INTP can go, depending on whom they are socialising with.

@Richard, Richard, Richard... many people would give up a LOT to what you've already inadvertently established for yourself here. You have smarts, fame, and women. Many would give up to have what you currently have. Please don't tell me you're one of those bored rich kids who has all those neat little gizmos and gadgets everyone wishes they had and the kind of person that toys with the hearts of young maidens. That would be utterly wrong of you in all respects.

But since we know you're not like that, please kindly step over that imaginary line you're set for yourself. It's okay. It's safe to step across. There is no satellite in the sky that has a target painted on your head ready to fire if you step over. You don't have to trust me. You already have the fleet of fans waiting for you right outside this invisible barrier if you just let them into your inner sanctum.

Now can I have your autograph please? It's for my sister.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
@Richard, Richard, Richard... many people would give up a LOT to what you've already inadvertently established for yourself here. You have smarts, fame, and women. Many would give up to have what you currently have. Please don't tell me you're one of those bored rich kids who has all those neat little gizmos and gadgets everyone wishes they had and the kind of person that toys with the hearts of young maidens. That would be utterly wrong of you in all respects.

But since we know you're not like that, please kindly step over that imaginary line you're set for yourself. It's okay. It's safe to step across. There is no satellite in the sky that has a target painted on your head ready to fire if you step over. You don't have to trust me. You already have the fleet of fans waiting for you right outside this invisible barrier if you just let them into your inner sanctum.

Now can I have your autograph please? It's for my sister.
I don’t have any fans in in real life(tm). My life beyond PerC remains the same. I’m fine with interacting here, but I don’t think it’s going to magic away the concerns I have in my day to day existence.

I accept this place for what it is, a forum full of many open minded and supportive people. I don’t have any women, and I’m certainly nothing special in the intellectual department.
 

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黐線 ~Chiseen~
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I don’t have any fans in in real life(tm). My life beyond PerC remains the same. I’m fine with interacting here, but I don’t think it’s going to magic away the concerns I have in my day to day existence.

I accept this place for what it is, a forum full of many open minded and supportive people. I don’t have any women, and I’m certainly nothing special in the intellectual department.

To the powers that be still reading this thread, although Sad Keanu makes me sad. However, Sad Richard makes me even sadder. Please do something about this. Thank you for your help and assistance.


@Ablysmal, we need a meme of Sad Richard please. Thank you kindly.
 

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Richard's avatar is all his faces.
 
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To the powers that be still reading this thread, although Sad Keanu makes me sad. However, Sad Richard makes me even sadder. Please do something about this. Thank you for your help and assistance.


@Ablysmal , we need a meme of Sad Richard please. Thank you kindly.
As the now official INTP meme creator, I shall assist you. Just give me some time since I tend to get sidetracked quite a lot hehe

Until then, I leave you with this to cheer up Sad Richard(tm)

jazz-hands.jpg


bunny.jpg
 

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Last resort.. Buxom ISFP Ninja Assassin

Will straddle Richards lap and wriggle until he breaks and admits that he's actually a very cool INTP.
A Buxom Ninja Assassin lap dance?
Huh, why does she have to be a ninja assassin?

Wait...

Wait...

Oh my gosh, that would be one of the most awesome things I've ever heard. Richard, you're a lucky man.
 

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Sorry if it seemed defensive, I didn’t perceive your post as an attack, I just wanted to correct some(apparent) assumptions.

We all mix logic and feeling to some extent. I just try to see how much of a person’s emotilogic(I can make up words) I can emulate before I diverge in terms of the conclusions I draw relative to those of the person I’m dealing with. When I don’t understand, I do my best to tolerate sentiments that don’t have dire consequences for myself or others.
It does seem that some INTPs disregard emotion altogether, they lack self awareness in the use of their own brand of emotilogic, and have no qualms in forcing their gospel down the throat of others. I think life slowly teaches us the error of our ways(perhaps to a limited degree)

I used the term emotional dysfunction because both you and Abysmal used it. I interpreted it in the social context as being the difficultly we have in deciding how we feel about certain types of interaction when time constraints are imposed(i.e partner bringing up the issue of qualifying your relationship or something similar, and wanting to discuss it there and then). The right sort of person(tm) can make these exchanges easier to handle.

When it comes to my personal issues, I don’t really consider the social perspective. I’m not really under the illusion that I need someone to come and make my life better, to alleviate anything. I was merely talking about how smoothly a social interaction for an INTP can go, depending on whom they are socialising with.

Many people have suggested that finding a person would help, I’m not necessarily convinced.
I’m not sure I share some of the social reservations I’ve seen on these forums, I’m in no way private and will talk about practically anything. If I chase people away, it’s probably because of my boring disposition due to my lack of implication in life.

Projection game = projecting value onto objects in the external world ==> having more to relate with others on ==> deeper emotional connection ==> understanding complexity of emotions evoked depending on a given context.
Sorry for mistakenly being defensive because I mistakenly thought you were being defensive because i mistakenly believed you thought i was attacking you;)

Anyway, I may be assuming based on my experiences with less mature 20-something INTPs who are pretty naive about the importance of reading emotions of others and actually considering them as factors in decision making.

I think your next point about emotional dysfunction is something I can relate to. If i understand correctly, you don't react very well when pressure is placed on you by another person to make a decision. In the relationship context this can pose a problem because many women need reassurance through some sort of label or declaration of monogamy because there is this societal notion that if a guy has not fallen for you yet then he never will and women don't want to waste their time. Many people don't understand that it takes a while before an INTP is ready to reach this conclusion about a person and "take the plunge." I think a patient and understanding person would help but know that in matters of the heart sometimes "I just don't know about you right this second" or "I have to figure out how i feel and get back to you" just wont do. Indeed, this is very frustrating.



I am at a point where i have constantly had some guy in my life and now that my life is completely absent intimacy, I have realized how being alone is so important and I have no desire to bother another person with my personal issues. I guess having another person around shouldn't be viewed as filling some sort of hole, I think it should be just an additional satisfaction to an already fulfilling life. With that said, I don't think having someone in your life is the catch-all remedy that people make it out to be. In fact, being in a relationship before one is ready is very detrimental to the other person involved. I can't tell you how many broken-hearted friends I have who fell for someone who just wasn't ready to give them what they needed.
 

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I was going to visit @Richard, but then he started preparing to make sure it didn't happen. Ah hem.
 

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..I'm certainly nothing special in the intellectual department.
This is probably important to you because of what you do, however it's not as important in life and for happiness as an INTP can think. There is no arbitrary way of judging intelligence, though negativity will probably not assist in the whole process.

Intuition shall set people free, not logic.
 
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