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I'm not sure how many will relate to this, so if this doesn't resonate with anyone here then maybe I'm not actually an INTJ, or maybe I am?

I specifically want to ask about the INTJ "independence", and in what way exactly the INTJ is supposed to be independent. I've heard a lot from INTJs that they feel that bad experiences in their upbringing must have contributed to their tendencies today, which is true for me too. But I wonder if those people, like myself, learned from their first relationships that they couldn't trust other people and as a result, consistently refuse to rely on others. But this isn't real independence. In my case, I am actually quite dependent, at least emotionally anyway. I can't trust, and if I do, I can get clingy - though not overtly.

So, anyone else? Does this independence refer to many different versions of itself, even if it's kind of fake? Or is this emotional dependence a common experience with INTJs?
 

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I don't experience independence in conjunction with trust. Even if I trust someone and love them, I think it's always in the back of my head that I wouldn't physically die if we weren't together. If there is a point when someone treats me less than I think I deserve, I usually ask myself, "would I be happier alone than I am with this person?" and determine from there. If a relationship is not improving my life/happiness, why would I put up with it? People are a lot of work. For the record, I don't mean a bad fight or anything temporary like that - that is normal and should be expected in any relationship. There has to be a duration of unhappiness with consistent/repetative issues.

It's not unusual for me to have an emotional buffer regardless of my feelings. I do get smitten with people and feel that attachment and get sad at the idea of them not being around and want to work my ass off to preserve it, no doubt. But I have never been clingy, even when I'm absolutely infatuated with someone. I can drop anyone in a heartbeat and not be too broken up about it. I usually experience mainly disappointment.
 

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I'm not sure how many will relate to this, so if this doesn't resonate with anyone here then maybe I'm not actually an INTJ, or maybe I am?

I specifically want to ask about the INTJ "independence", and in what way exactly the INTJ is supposed to be independent. I've heard a lot from INTJs that they feel that bad experiences in their upbringing must have contributed to their tendencies today, which is true for me too. But I wonder if those people, like myself, learned from their first relationships that they couldn't trust other people and as a result, consistently refuse to rely on others. But this isn't real independence. In my case, I am actually quite dependent, at least emotionally anyway. I can't trust, and if I do, I can get clingy - though not overtly.

So, anyone else? Does this independence refer to many different versions of itself, even if it's kind of fake? Or is this emotional dependence a common experience with INTJs?
Yeah, I can't relate to any of this I'm afraid.
 

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But I wonder if those people, like myself, learned from their first relationships that they couldn't trust other people and as a result, consistently refuse to rely on others. But this isn't real independence.
I don't know. I chalked up my adult life as a series of learning experiences about the world, which sum up to in general about to what you say.

Maybe it's real or not, but I wouldn't be putting any of my eggs into one basket. However, I do have a basic trust in the ideals of the rule of law in the U.S. and some other Western countries.

So, I check, doublecheck, and get it in writing.

Naomi Quenk characterizes this as "being in the grip" of the inferior Se, but I prefer to recognize the position of my attitude as "doing what I can to make sure Se and Fi are in harmony, because you shouldn't let the world turn into a bummer."

That last I'd consider a dependence -- not recognizing how tightly connected Se and Fi are, and that it's possible they are interactive in some way between each other. A state of mind ruled by fear or obsessive analysis of simple facts about the world, in other worlds, is the real dependence. I wouldn't know what "real independence" is, but it's not that, is what I'm saying.

I don't know what I'd call it -- you can't fix the world, but you can act in a way that is consistent with all of its little details, and just get on with living your life.

Sounds like a Hallmark card.

I don't know what to say about "trust." I don't really think about that too much -- trust but verify, I guess, but the bastards haven't ground me down yet, so it seems to work OK.
 

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So, anyone else? Does this independence refer to many different versions of itself, even if it's kind of fake? Or is this emotional dependence a common experience with INTJs?
You seem to be confusing co-dependency + dependency. Not an unheard of mistake; and rather (common) among the 'commitment-phobic' or the 'commitment obsessed'.

(High-functioning dependency) struggles - are not always [results of 'typology' malfunctions or an indicator of mistype], so regardless of "how un/common it is," among other INTJ - dependency malfunctions can be deep-seated and addressed better by raising more important psychological questions, thus getting more useful answer(s) outside of typology, [such as truamas / emotional-malfunctions &, mental health].

I do not look toward(s) Typology, and seek other answers via more useful [aspects] of Psychology, for such issues like this; that are usually ill-fitted (error-ridden), when conflating with MBTI.
 

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I specifically want to ask about the INTJ "independence", and in what way exactly the INTJ is supposed to be independent.
i think mine has evolved over time, so there's that. i think too it took me a while to 'come into' my independence, because mine is all based on this foundation of knowing myself. so it took me a while to get well-enough acquainted with myself to know how to shape my present so that it wasn't going to complicate or restrict my future.

for me, it's been all about knowing what really matters to me, what i'm really going to be like no matter what the outside pressures might be, and knowing what i'm capable of and what i'm incapable of. then 'independence' has grown out of the over-time realization that many actions that i take in the present can set people up with expectations (or set me up with obligations) that are going to conflict with all that. they're going to want or expect or be entitled to things i don't want them to have, so that's a 'there' that i just stay away from.

a really simple example from my own life would be learning to drive. i didn't until i was into my early thirties, and the reason why i didn't was because i didn't like any of the available pathways for learning to do it. i was this cute feisty little single mom with this cute feisty little kid, and all kinds of generic guys were more than eager to grab a little shot of easy self-boosting by offering to teach me. i declined all of them, because i could sense that in their minds there were expectations of which way that script was supposed to play out. i knew i wasn't going to be playing that script, so i elected to avoid the drama of taking the role in the first place. it's more subtle than just the obvious one of 'and then you'll put out' - more like 'and then you'll like me.' but i knew i wasn't goign to 'like' them just because they'd done a favour for me, so i filtered the kinds of favours i would accept very carefully. i got called 'too independent for my own good' quite a bit in those years :tongue:

another one is me being a freelance, i guess. the reasons why i started freelancing were purely pragmatic - we needed to eat. but the reason why i only lasted two months last year when i tried being an employee was independence. i just couldn't deal with that in-your-pants kind of relationship that 'fulltime' employment makes you liable for. i want to make too many of my own calls about my own life, and being an employee just isn't compatible with that idea.

I can't trust, and if I do, I can get clingy - though not overtly.
this is a slightly different thing, i think. i recognize it and i do monitor my own emotional dependency thing. i see that as something i just need to do because i'm so picky that any friend/care relationship i do get into means an immoderate amount to me. but i don't really call that independence. more like just managing something i know to be enough of a weakness/issue for me that it does call for 'outside' help from my analytical mind.

i guess to me there's this small difference between being 'independent' because the real you is different from who you'd like to be, and being 'independent' because the real you is different from what other people would like you to be.
 

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I have found independence has translated, for me more in these ways:

- non conformist or iconoclastic
- mistrustful of "groupthink" or "mob mentality"
- usually have innovative ideas with regards to problem solving
- mistrust with going "by the book"
- needs (in some people's estimation) excessive time by myself
- can work completely idependently

As far as emotional/clingy behavior, I sometimes feel very clingy to my guy because we really rely on each other sometimes. In times where we have gone through financial shifts or when we need to work together for our kids or whatever else, I sometimes recognize how dependent I am on him.

I have noticed that I have a tendency to be bossy. Sometimes I worry if this means that I'm just lazy about some things, but as I've grown older, I've been more aware of how much I ask in relationships. For example, just today, I asked my guy to do laundry while he was doing dishes (the dishwasher and laundry room are close by). But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't do them myself; I just would rather do something that won't get in his way (or he getting in my way) and he was already doing dishes.

I don't like the feeling of being dependent on others, but I recognize that sometimes it's the best compromise just like sometimes, for other people, like my sister who is 10 years younger than me, it's the best compromise for her to be somewhat dependent on me (our functional parent died a little over 2 years ago and she is still in an age range where it's not unusual for her to need help from an older person).

Edit to add: However, I'm completely confident if I were on my own, I'd be able to take care of myself just fine.

Also, see attachment theory. Might help with what you're interested in.
 
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What's your definition of real independence, then?

I grew up in a fend for yourself type of family with a single dad who was hyper vigilant about knowing how to do things on your own [to save money], being an individual and authentic to core values.

So my independent streak wasn't borne out of lack of trust, more like learned self-assurance.

Trust, being independent/doing things myself and emotional well-being are separate compartments that can sometimes overlap depending on the scenario. I can't relate to most of what you're saying because I have clear definitions of them and where they 'go' in my life.
 

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I don't experience independence in conjunction with trust. Even if I trust someone and love them, I think it's always in the back of my head that I wouldn't physically die if we weren't together. If there is a point when someone treats me less than I think I deserve, I usually ask myself, "would I be happier alone than I am with this person?" and determine from there. If a relationship is not improving my life/happiness, why would I put up with it? People are a lot of work. For the record, I don't mean a bad fight or anything temporary like that - that is normal and should be expected in any relationship. There has to be a duration of unhappiness with consistent/repetative issues.

It's not unusual for me to have an emotional buffer regardless of my feelings. I do get smitten with people and feel that attachment and get sad at the idea of them not being around and want to work my ass off to preserve it, no doubt. But I have never been clingy, even when I'm absolutely infatuated with someone. I can drop anyone in a heartbeat and not be too broken up about it. I usually experience mainly disappointment.
Ha! This is so funny because I frame my feelings in this exact way. Once a beau said 'i can't live with you' and my Debbie downer comment was, 'yeah you can, you've done it for 20 or so years already' which lead him to asking how I would feel if he died. Of course silly me couldn't help but me honest. :dry:
 

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The type of independence described in the first post is in my opinion a chimera pursued by many INTJs in the first half of life (very broadly). It seems to me that the real mixture of reasons, whatever it may be, probably includes more or less all the reasons you mentioned.

Later, we hopefully come to realise the necessity of diluting that delusional pursuit of independence with a mix of codependence and openness because they simply bring more benefits than the risks they carry. And the cost-benefit calculator embedded in every INTJs brain should eventually get hold of that fact and act accordingly. And whilst cognition alone is not enough to lead to a change of behaviour, hey, it's a necessary first step
 

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I think you are mixing up enneagram with MBTI. MBTI looks at thought processes, regardless of why they formed the way they are. Enneagram is much more about motivations and reasons behind why we act the way we do. It might be useful to looking at this question in the enneagram context.

Independence in INTJ context has for me always meant independence of thought. Could elaborate here but that is ultimately what it comes down to.
 

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I can relate. Sometimes I feel the need to prove that I'm capable. People naturally assume the opposite and I guess it's partially my fault. I can be reluctant to ask for help in certain situations and prefer to figure things out for myself. I can't stand it when people step in and do things for me that I can completely capable to doing on my own. It's true they aren't in my head and I should really keep this in mind. It bothers me when people assume otherwise and this is often the case.

Sometimes I feel like I naturally give off a vibe of being incapable and naive and I try my best to cover this up, often without success. I usually learn better from making a mistake then when people step in and protect me from my mistakes. In some ways, I will admit I am quite naive but it bothers me when people treat me like I'm incapable. When people give me too much help, baby me, or treat me younger than my age the feelings of being patronized get stronger.
 

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"independent:
1. free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.
synonyms: freethinking, individualistic, unconventional.
2. not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.
synonyms: self-sufficient, self-supporting, self-sustaining, self-reliant, self-standing."


According to these definitions, I'm independent since the age of 15.. when I got a highschool scholarship and leaved my native city and my home.. but I became a real hermit (truly independent from society) only in my middle 20's when I've succeeded to become an entrepreneur. Now, at 28, the CEOs that I hired do 90% of my work. Some may argue that I'm dependent of my employees.. but I'm pretty sure is the other way around.
Emotional dependence..? I admit that I experienced it when I fall inlove, before I became a MGTOW and gave up to dating/relationships.. but it feels like that happened hundreds of years ago. Lol
Also, about 95% of my lifetime I trusted nobody.. I only trusted the women I fell inlove with, but I got burn, badly, each time!

 

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There are several ways in which I'd say I'm independent.

I have very different views, tastes, opinions, etc. than the majority of the people. This means that I cannot just delegate an important task to somebody else - unless I give precise instructions they won't be able to do exactly what I would have done in the same situation. I end up preferring to do things myself. This applies even to things like going to the store - it's easier to go and choose what I like than to explain it to somebody else.

I like to be in control of my own life. I cannot just wait for somebody else to take care of me. When something goes wrong for me, I'd rather know I made a mistake than know I had no control over the situation.

I don't like asking people for favors. It seems childish to ask somebody to do something for you when you can do it yourself. I do ask people for favors on occasions, but only in situations I believe I have no other choice.

I feel more comfortable being alone than being with somebody else. That way I need only think about my desires and it's not necessary to make effort to communicate.

That being said, I think I'm slightly emotionally dependent - sometimes I need attention or approval from others.
 

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Independence as in:

-Taking risks/Not being scared to do things alone. (Eg: Ive traveled to 10 countries alone. I was 23 when I went to my first country alone.)

-Not letting other peoples opinions stop me from what I want to do

-Not turning to people for emotional support
-Never caring to be in a group/clique

Sure. That's me.


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Discussion Starter #17
I think you are mixing up enneagram with MBTI. MBTI looks at thought processes, regardless of why they formed the way they are. Enneagram is much more about motivations and reasons behind why we act the way we do. It might be useful to looking at this question in the enneagram context.

Independence in INTJ context has for me always meant independence of thought. Could elaborate here but that is ultimately what it comes down to.
Makes sense. I haven't actually taken an enneagram test
 
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Discussion Starter #18
You seem to be confusing co-dependency + dependency. Not an unheard of mistake; and rather (common) among the 'commitment-phobic' or the 'commitment obsessed'.

(High-functioning dependency) struggles - are not always [results of 'typology' malfunctions or an indicator of mistype], so regardless of "how un/common it is," among other INTJ - dependency malfunctions can be deep-seated and addressed better by raising more important psychological questions, thus getting more useful answer(s) outside of typology, [such as truamas / emotional-malfunctions &, mental health].

I do not look toward(s) Typology, and seek other answers via more useful [aspects] of Psychology, for such issues like this; that are usually ill-fitted (error-ridden), when conflating with MBTI.
Yes, I suppose that I was referring more to co-dependency. I wanted to know whether other psychological factors and mental health issues can contribute to the outcome of personality testing in such a way that the results are actually inaccurate, without realizing. Despite the relation I see to this result, part of me wonders whether the insidious breakdown of my mental health and abusive family members has caused me to perceive things uncharacteristically, and whether the development of personality type is dependent on these kinds of factors or is resistant to them.
 
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