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Discussion Starter #1
Context:

I've noticed that over the years I haven't actually gotten involved with a single ENFJ despite having met many of individuals. (And I'm sure I've left some of them confused, and others - at least 2 - might be friends.)

Also, a long time ago, Jawz posted something asking how ENFJ women compare to ENFJ men, knowing that ENFJ guys are really good at romancing someone. (There was mention of White Knights in shining armour. Is there no female equivalent to that??? :happy: That would be pretty great.)

Recurring pattern:
Meet a person that seems interested in me. I'm in interested in them. They're social, and overwhelmingly ENFJ-like. We hang out for a while. It goes nowhere.

Other times, I'd just take too long to make up my mind, and they'd move on. Or I'd decide it's more worth it to keep them as friends.

I've come to realize that this has a lot to do with your typical ENFJ's ability (and willingness) to lead in social situations. And that's why things have trouble progressing.

Examples
I remember this one ENFJ girl asked me out for coffee. And then we went to some other places, and went on walks. It didn't really progress from there. I got the impression she really wanted me to initiate things and decide where we're going all the time, so I did. Ironically, it seemed like she could have better handled organization, and that she had lots of opinions that she was suppressing in an effort to win me over. I'm not really sure why she felt she couldn't be more assertive, as she normally is (and as my ENFJ friends usually are.) Eventually, I told her we were friends.

And I also confused the hell out of one poor ENFJ recently after I flirted with her for a month and then completely messed up meeting her for some food snack. I got really anxious that the place only took cash, and left to look for a ATM and just kind of left her there, and by the time I was back to explain, she was really done with me. We're on polite terms now.

Another example: I started a conversation this one ENFJ girl I was never gonna see again, and when I started dealing with other people who were waiting, she seemed unsure as to whether she should wait up for me. And she turned around like 5 times to look for a cue on my part. And instead of signalling something, I just let her go (and then asked her out over email, which was really lame.)

Anyway, the point is, somehow the gender roles in this case (whatever worth they might be) are making this incredibly difficult, because my instinctual reaction with an ENFJ is to let them do their thing, while being receptive, and analyzing them. Curiously, I only seem to have such issues with ENTjs & ENFjs. I mean the introverts are easy to deal with because I can relate and know how to make people comfortable. And as far as ESFx go, they're very literal and follow social scripts.

I'm asking because:
I recently met another ENFJ who seemed really smart and charming. o_O
So, is there a female ENFJ equivalent of the White Knight thing?:tongue:
 

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you seem to be going from one girl to the next and keep avoiding them for some reason

which leads me to the question - do you really want an ENFJ at all ?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
you seem to be going from one girl to the next and keep avoiding them for some reason
Well it may seem that way from the way I wrote it. But those are my condensed experiences within the last 6 years (which is a long time, and there are many spaces and other things happening in between). Most of the people in question I've known for years. And obviously once it doesn't work out everyone moves on eventually.

which leads me to the question - do you really want an ENFJ at all ?
I'm not saying I want an ENFJ/don't want an ENFJ. Obviously I'm drawn to such individuals, and vice versa. I just know it always fails in the exact same pattern. I've not seen many cases of a ENFJ female/INFP male relationship working out on Perc. So I'm wondering if it has to do with gender roles.
 

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@Twoshoe

So you didn't make a move on any of them yet you're wondering how to go about getting an ENFJ?

Stop kidding yourself. This has got everything to do with you and nothing to do with them. From your stories, the girls were being...normal girls. Western society dictates that the man leads in "courtship"; that's just the way it is. Fe-doms are clearly going to follow suit in this regard. If you want an ENFJ, try kissing her. If she likes you - and you have suggested so far that they all did - then she'll kiss back.
 

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Context: I've noticed that over the years I haven't actually gotten involved with a single ENFJ despite having met many of individuals. (And I'm sure I've left some of them confused, and others - at least 2 - might be friends.)
I am surprised! You are an INFP male which is very attractive to ENFJ females.


I've come to realize that this has a lot to do with your typical ENFJ's ability (and willingness) to lead in social situations. And that's why things have trouble progressing.
This is an interesting thing you said here. We are willing to lead in social situations, but do require a sense of reciprocity from the other side. Otherwise, we feel like we are trying too hard or possibly coming across too forceful to a point that we might feel like we are driving the other party away.:unsure:

Examples
I remember this one ENFJ girl asked me out for coffee. And then we went to some other places, and went on walks. It didn't really progress from there. I got the impression she really wanted me to initiate things and decide where we're going all the time, so I did. Ironically, it seemed like she could have better handled organization, and that she had lots of opinions that she was suppressing in an effort to win me over. I'm not really sure why she felt she couldn't be more assertive, as she normally is (and as my ENFJ friends usually are.) Eventually, I told her we were friends.
That is wonderful that you initiated things.:proud: I am confused about this statement: it seemed like she could have better handled organisation. I think that if you initiated things she would want to see you follow through on all respects. It is kind like an art piece: you are the creator and you need to choose the materials, what and when you will paint, and what you want to create. She wanted to see your romance come out. If she gave you too many ideas of what she wanted, she would have never known if the planned hang-out was your idea of "romance" or her idea of "romance". Essentially, she wanted you to explore your Ne.

I know that I am very good at letting my feelings being known. In fact, I probably like lots of other ENFJ females you have met... we are not scared to ask for a guy's phone #, we would set-up a coffee date, & if we enjoyed ourselves we would immediately follow-up (either through text message, FB, email etc). After this we look for some reciprocity and reassurance on the other party's behalf. If we keep doing all the work, we feel like we are pushing things and the other person really isn't interested (if they reject us outright) or if they continue to go along with things but never initiated a follow-up with us, we are constant left in the mode of thinking that the other person is just being polite and nice. Healthy ENFJs are sought after because we are interested in other people (we ask loads of questions, we always appear engaged hence our bright eyes and smiles) and of course people absolutely love this about us. Problem is, we don't always went leave a conversation thinking that is all we are worth: making people feel good, bringing out this best them, & knowing how to create a comfortable and pleasant scenario for them. Healthy ENFJs are genuine & have no other motivations than to learn about the other person in hopes of forming a deep & meaningful relationship (especially when they know the other person is capable of this depth, but maybe shy and/or afraid to show it and be vulnerable). IMHO, ENFJs are popular folk, who at times, are so in-tune with other types that we will "adjust" ourselves to associate on their level (our way of making them feel comfortable) --- this is especially the case with ST/SF/NT types. We are very much "at home" with XNFX types. At the end of the day, we will have many friends, but we won't spend much time with those folks who cannot engage in meaningful, deep, and eye-opening exchanges. I think this is why I am attracted to INFX types. I know that they don't open-up to everyone & feels amazing and wonderful when they feel that they can open up to me (and vice-a-versa). :happy:

And I also confused the hell out of one poor ENFJ recently after I flirted with her for a month and then completely messed up meeting her for some food snack. I got really anxious that the place only took cash, and left to look for a ATM and just kind of left her there, and by the time I was back to explain, she was really done with me. We're on polite terms now.
That seems a bit strange:confused:. I think she should have asked for some clarity for why you were leaving. If her intuition were well developed she would have felt that you were anxious. At that point she would have told you that they take cash or said, "hey I'll get it this time - no need to worry". She might have even asked if you wanted to go somewhere else or even asking if "seomthing was up". ENFJs, the givers, are concerned if you are happy, comfortable and relaxed. We will do whatever it takes to make sure the other party is feeling relaxed. Perhaps this young ladies intuition is not nearly as well developed or maybe she is being influenced by her girlfriends (probably SF/ST) who saw your action as "ditching her". Mature ENFJs need to follow their intuition rather than rely on their SF/ST girlfriends! (maybe projecting here!)


Another example: I started a conversation this one ENFJ girl I was never gonna see again, and when I started dealing with other people who were waiting, she seemed unsure as to whether she should wait up for me. And she turned around like 5 times to look for a cue on my part. And instead of signalling something, I just let her go (and then asked her out over email, which was really lame.)
That's okay, at least you asked her out over e-mail. :) yay! That's great. Don't feel so regretful. :wink:

Anyway, the point is, somehow the gender roles in this case (whatever worth they might be) are making this incredibly difficult, because my instinctual reaction with an ENFJ is to let them do their thing, while being receptive, and analyzing them. Curiously, I only seem to have such issues with ENTjs & ENFjs. I mean the introverts are easy to deal with because I can relate and know how to make people comfortable. And as far as ESFx go, they're very literal and follow social scripts.
I don't conform to gender norms. I tend to bring up my concepts of gender norms in conversations & more by my actions. For example, one time my male INFP friend (now romantic interest) said he kind of 'poor' right now and couldn't afford to go out for drinks with a few of us from the University. Everyone wanted him to come out and join us. I wanted him to be there too! So, without anyone being in ear-shot, I told him, "don't worry I got it this time" (I was talking about the bill). Up until this point he had never bought me a drink. I helped keep his dignity in tact (so the other guys would not go after him) & also, through my actions showed that I don't think it necessary for the man to always buy a woman a drink first. He was polite and well mannered & got only two drinks. I appreciated that he didn't take advantage of the fact I was paying, and nor did I make a big deal out of it or bring it up at a later time.

Later on, he had made some wine and mead for me :) I very much appreciated this as it took him time to bottle it, put a nice lable on it and give it to me. :blushed:

Couldn't agree more with the portion in bold!

I'm asking because:
I recently met another ENFJ who seemed really smart and charming. o_O
So, is there a female ENFJ equivalent of the White Knight thing?:tongue:
Feel free to PM if you have any other questions about ENFJ girls. I'll admit, in front of my XSFX girlfriends, they always seem my actions as unconventional and somewhat silly (for example, paying for Mr. INFP drinks). In the end of the day, I like a guy who isn't all about conventional, traditional roles. I know that if he can step-out-of box from the norm he is worth my time & interest!
 

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Context:

I've noticed that over the years I haven't actually gotten involved with a single ENFJ despite having met many of individuals. (And I'm sure I've left some of them confused, and others - at least 2 - might be friends.)

Also, a long time ago, Jawz posted something asking how ENFJ women compare to ENFJ men, knowing that ENFJ guys are really good at romancing someone. (There was mention of White Knights in shining armour. Is there no female equivalent to that??? :happy: That would be pretty great.)

Recurring pattern:
Meet a person that seems interested in me. I'm in interested in them. They're social, and overwhelmingly ENFJ-like. We hang out for a while. It goes nowhere.

Other times, I'd just take too long to make up my mind, and they'd move on. Or I'd decide it's more worth it to keep them as friends.

I've come to realize that this has a lot to do with your typical ENFJ's ability (and willingness) to lead in social situations. And that's why things have trouble progressing.

Examples
I remember this one ENFJ girl asked me out for coffee. And then we went to some other places, and went on walks. It didn't really progress from there. I got the impression she really wanted me to initiate things and decide where we're going all the time, so I did. Ironically, it seemed like she could have better handled organization, and that she had lots of opinions that she was suppressing in an effort to win me over. I'm not really sure why she felt she couldn't be more assertive, as she normally is (and as my ENFJ friends usually are.) Eventually, I told her we were friends.

And I also confused the hell out of one poor ENFJ recently after I flirted with her for a month and then completely messed up meeting her for some food snack. I got really anxious that the place only took cash, and left to look for a ATM and just kind of left her there, and by the time I was back to explain, she was really done with me. We're on polite terms now.

Another example: I started a conversation this one ENFJ girl I was never gonna see again, and when I started dealing with other people who were waiting, she seemed unsure as to whether she should wait up for me. And she turned around like 5 times to look for a cue on my part. And instead of signalling something, I just let her go (and then asked her out over email, which was really lame.)

Anyway, the point is, somehow the gender roles in this case (whatever worth they might be) are making this incredibly difficult, because my instinctual reaction with an ENFJ is to let them do their thing, while being receptive, and analyzing them. Curiously, I only seem to have such issues with ENTjs & ENFjs. I mean the introverts are easy to deal with because I can relate and know how to make people comfortable. And as far as ESFx go, they're very literal and follow social scripts.

I'm asking because:
I recently met another ENFJ who seemed really smart and charming. o_O
So, is there a female ENFJ equivalent of the White Knight thing?:tongue:
I can totally relate to what you are saying. I feel it is partially my fault, for seeing something that isn't there, or also my ability to doubt myself takes the best of me. So even if there are some clear signals, it has been hard for me in the past to turn it up a notch, but I see myself getting better with time.

I know what you mean by being attracted to the social aspects. Just recently I was seeing an ENFJ chick, and she seemed interested, but I feel like she gave up on me after the second date. I had difficulty turning up the attraction. I've contacted her a couple times, since but haven't been able to hang out with her. Now I kind of gave up on her, and i'd rather not bother her. Oh well.....

I also noticed what you mentioned, about wanting to please you, and hiding back a part of herself that she doesn't want you to see. I felt some of that going on, but it didn't bother me much after getting to know her better. I felt I could really open up and share my feelings with her. *sigh* The day will come soon enough, when I meet someone I can relate to again.
 

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I've not seen many cases of a ENFJ female/INFP male relationship working out on Perc. So I'm wondering if it has to do with gender roles.
I don't know if you still read this board, but I wanted to comment on it to give you some hope. I am an enfj female and my husband of now 7 years is an infp. We really are madly in love and most people who know us describe us as such. With the realities of any marriage, it makes me wonder what being married to another type would be like. I count myself blessed and us extremely lucky since we only knew each other ten months when we said "I do," and knew it was going to happen after three months of dating. We only knew each other a month before we decided to make it romantic, and it seemed very natural to do. A relationship with these two types can be very successful, it just depends on how seriously I think the two take it. Not willing to give up on each other, as we can both let our negative emotions run havoc sometimes, is key. Knowing that even if it seems like THE fight, "this too shall pass," kind of thinking will get you far. Even though I dislike conflict, I am not afraid of it, and view it as inherent between two distinct individuals, especially ones that can be very passionate about their ideals. As far as the gender roles, as an enfj, I am comfortable taking on certain responsibilities that most put in the male role, such as planning events, paying for things, even defending honor, however, because we enfjs naturally do this for more people than our mates, I think women especially can from time to time adopt parts of sj/sp society's ideals of romance as their own and desire for the male to do what is normally expected. For two reasons. One, we are TIRED. It takes a lot of work making sure everyone in your sphere is happy, and feeling a bit of justice in this world, and sometimes we want that to be done for us. Most likely we wouldn't expect this of a casual friend or acquaintance simply Because they probably won't be able to tell what it is we want and secondly, that kind of request might seem in appropriate if that person falls into our mind as needing to be taken care of. Secondly, there is nothing more meaningful than seeing someone do something for you that falls out of their comfort zone. Not to say infps aren't comfortable providing or being assertive, but it's not usually the preferred route for them in solving problems or filling needs in my experience. Especially having someone perform this kind of social sacrifice when they are most qualified to know what it is you need, well that is high romance to me. As a child I always dreamed of being with someone who was generally guarded except to me, and I found that in my infp husband. I couldn't be any more happy. I know I could never pair myself any better.

EDIT: fwiw I just remembered that when I was REALLY young I would have these grand musical fantasies where I had to sword fight and sing in order to save my handsome but unfortunately captured (yet normally capable and heroic) lover. So there you go. The whole white knight in shining armor can go both ways, perhaps just not as frequently. :)
 

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The biggest thing about ENFJ's, be it a man or woman, is that you need to return the gesture.


If we feel that our initiative or gestures are not returned in kind, we voluntarily retreat.

We take it personally, that we are not interesting enough or that you are just not that in to us.

And would prefer to retreat before defeat.

I believe that there could be a white knight female ENFJ, but I think she would need to have develop her Te and her Fi alot to overcome alot of social inertia which comes from dating and relationships.

I'm a 100% sure about how much difference the gender role plays as I'm a male ENFJ.

But that just how I feel..

Hope that clears stuff up on ENFJs.

We love you, we just need you to love us back.
 

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I don't know if you still read this board, but I wanted to comment on it to give you some hope. I am an enfj female and my husband of now 7 years is an infp. We really are madly in love and most people who know us describe us as such. With the realities of any marriage, it makes me wonder what being married to another type would be like. I count myself blessed and us extremely lucky since we only knew each other ten months when we said "I do," and knew it was going to happen after three months of dating. We only knew each other a month before we decided to make it romantic, and it seemed very natural to do. A relationship with these two types can be very successful, it just depends on how seriously I think the two take it. Not willing to give up on each other, as we can both let our negative emotions run havoc sometimes, is key. Knowing that even if it seems like THE fight, "this too shall pass," kind of thinking will get you far. Even though I dislike conflict, I am not afraid of it, and view it as inherent between two distinct individuals, especially ones that can be very passionate about their ideals. As far as the gender roles, as an enfj, I am comfortable taking on certain responsibilities that most put in the male role, such as planning events, paying for things, even defending honor, however, because we enfjs naturally do this for more people than our mates, I think women especially can from time to time adopt parts of sj/sp society's ideals of romance as their own and desire for the male to do what is normally expected. For two reasons. One, we are TIRED. It takes a lot of work making sure everyone in your sphere is happy, and feeling a bit of justice in this world, and sometimes we want that to be done for us. Most likely we wouldn't expect this of a casual friend or acquaintance simply Because they probably won't be able to tell what it is we want and secondly, that kind of request might seem in appropriate if that person falls into our mind as needing to be taken care of. Secondly, there is nothing more meaningful than seeing someone do something for you that falls out of their comfort zone. Not to say infps aren't comfortable providing or being assertive, but it's not usually the preferred route for them in solving problems or filling needs in my experience. Especially having someone perform this kind of social sacrifice when they are most qualified to know what it is you need, well that is high romance to me. As a child I always dreamed of being with someone who was generally guarded except to me, and I found that in my infp husband. I couldn't be any more happy. I know I could never pair myself any better.

EDIT: fwiw I just remembered that when I was REALLY young I would have these grand musical fantasies where I had to sword fight and sing in order to save my handsome but unfortunately captured (yet normally capable and heroic) lover. So there you go. The whole white knight in shining armor can go both ways, perhaps just not as frequently. :)
omg I love your post.... really Speaks out my heart...
 
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