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It's mainly the N aspect. Unless I can sit and think on ideas and ideas and theories and discuss outcomes, strategies, hypothetical, on anything for hours with them, I will get bored. Not even bored. I feel like my brain is melting. Mind you, I'm not an intp. But I couldn't imagine an intp bring with someone who wouldn't be remotely interested in those things.

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I saw. I replied. So what's with the intp hot and cold deal?
I'm not an INTP, but the hot and cold thing is a matter of perspective, right? If you mean that they seem (intentionally?) hot and cold about you. But we're talking about a type whose primary function is an introspective, logical machine, fed by an auxiliary extroverted pattern-recognition process. Followed by another subjective, memory-based function. Only their least comfortable function would be inclined to wondering whether they are being perceived as being appropriately hot or accidentally cold, and they're only gonna care about how they are being perceived if they are invested in that relationship. Thus, their behavior when you do interact reveals how they feel about you, because they are acting on what their experience tells them is the logical response to the emotional/behavioral patterns you are showing them.

So essentially, the hot and cold thing is that they're being themselves, engaging with the world on their terms, and this seems to often be interpreted through another person's own functional patterns (e.g., "he hasn't called me = he doesn't care about me, because I regularly call the people I care about," etc.). I don't mean to sound dismissive of the question...I just get confused when people find themselves inexplicably drawn to an INTP, and then wonder why that INTP doesn't behave more like other types do.
 

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So I'm not really at "Dating", yet, it's still "Friendship", however:

My girl friends are pretty boring, so I hang out with a bunch of guys most of the time (we share the same interests), and I'm sort of considering the possibility of furthering my relationship from "friend" to "interest" with one of them, but it's not the time yet (we're still in highschool) and I am very idealistic about relationships (friend > dating> marriage for life~). Still, I'd like to become closer with him, he's an ISFJ, but I don't know anything about social expectations in this situation. I don't want to seem too forward, because I know he's an ISFJ so he'll be very accepting and nice; but I don't want to get false hopes from his kind nature, either.

To summarise: How do I deepen our relationship without seeming flirtatious? A guy friend of mine told me I kept sending him mixed messages (I was completely oblivious of it all)........

What are the social limits as a friend?
 

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I was once scorned because I always referred to my partner by her name and not a pet name.

Relationships - not even once.
I find that so sad. I have never called my S.O. any other than their names, even in more shallow relationships. Not nicknames, no short versions, no baby honeys darlings. Not just because they sound silly coming out of my mouth but because, in fact, the other person's name is something very important to me. This may be the most romantic (or stupid, or both) thing I can possibly say but their name carries meaning to me, a meaning so deep that I may even find myself thinking just of that, visualizing letters in my head, connecting the name to a scent, or a scene, as if looking for solace amidst the always running flow of thoughts in this head of mine, or even a connection to them when they're not near. It doesn't need to be a rare name, or particularly musical, just his name. Everytime I say your name I'm touching you, bastard, BE GRATEFUL I DON'T CALL YOU SILLY NAMES.

[/end of sugary moment, may fall into a diabetic coma]

ETA: @januaryjen should be our F ambassador to other types, she surely knows her INTPs ;)
 

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Well, an update I guess. Its over (what it ever going?).

She completely SHUT ME DOWN. I mean check and mate. Not really going to go into details about the situation, but it was a round about strait up shut down.

I am going to assume this includes taking a break together or getting coffee as "friends" as well.

Yes. I am bummed.
Sorry about that. At least you have your answer though, right? I'd suggest the next time someone catches your eye to try and make a move sooner so the let down isn't as bad and you haven't invested so much. Lots of guys get shot down way more often than they actually get a date so keep that in mind too. It's going to happen again, but hopefully it hurts less each time so eventually you just shrug it off. I was probably 0 for my first 12 on girls I had crushes on through high school and a few years of college, but I've had more positive than negative experiences since.
 

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@januaryjen

Great insight on the hot and cold thing. A lot of that rang true. Some things I don't express because it sounds obvious and stating what we perceive as obvious can seem tedious to some of us. It may not occur to us that we aren't expressive enough with words. In fact, that would usually be all it took for some of us to have better relationships, but we're thick like that.
I can think of a few things, like eating a meal someone else has cooked and failing to comment on how good it is. I'm more inclined to say something if I think she's pissed at me in a helpless sort of "Wud I do??" type way. Plus, I hate telling someone a meal is really good, if it really isn't because then I'll end up eating it for my birthday or something.

BTW, I dated an INFJ named Jen who had a birthday in January so I was freaked out she may have been on this forum all along.
 

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So I'm not really at "Dating", yet, it's still "Friendship", however:


To summarise: How do I deepen our relationship without seeming flirtatious? A guy friend of mine told me I kept sending him mixed messages (I was completely oblivious of it all)........

What are the social limits as a friend?
Well, unless you want to take the risk to be friendzoned forever, I wouldn't entirely discard a bit of flirtation now and then. As for limits, I wouldn't even care about the so called 'social' limits but those that you'd consider as such as well as those you may imagine he'd have; take advantage that you're already hanging out as a group of friends so you know him a bit, right?. And talking about the group, use the chance when there's some conversation to take the subject to related themes, I don't know, general, 'are some of you guys dating?', etc.
Anyway, you're very young, so don't be afraid of going ahead a bit, all things have a learning curve, you know?
 

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Well, an update I guess. Its over (what it ever going?).

She completely SHUT ME DOWN. I mean check and mate. Not really going to go into details about the situation, but it was a round about strait up shut down.

I am going to assume this includes taking a break together or getting coffee as "friends" as well.

Yes. I am bummed.
Bummer!

I am so sorry.

If she is an ENFj, it is possible that you are better off without her. Our two types can sometimes be bad for each other. Still, I am sorry. You deserve to find someone who loves you.
 

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Bummer!

I am so sorry.

If she is an ENFj, it is possible that you are better off without her. Our two types can sometimes be bad for each other. Still, I am sorry. You deserve to find someone who loves you.
Here are two INTP/ENFJ patterns I've noticed so far:

In My Relationship:

INTP pulls away. ENFJ seeks reassurance or asks for needs to be filled. INTP feels threatened and criticized and blames ENFJ while also explaining how INTP feels threatened. ENFJ who is now spiraling out of control after not getting reassurance and feeling even worse after being blamed is unable to do the normal ENFJ thing and empathize with INTP's feelings. Instead, ENFJ gets defensive and tries to explain that her intent was not as it was labeled and tries to better explain her need. INTP feels unheard and tells the ENFJ how she's not an empathetic person at all. ENFJ feels devastated. Normally, she is able to tune into others' needs and thrives daily on empathizing with others. She has failed at the thing that she prides herself in most. She keeps trying to defend. INTP keeps going back to the labels and misunderstandings that hurt in the first place. It spirals out of control horribly.

In My Old INTP Fling Last Fall--

Passion is blazing like wildfire, but it is still unrequited. The two laugh together and have a wonderful time. INTP seeks to fill that unrequited passion. ENFJ wants to, but is afraid of the scenario described above and does not want to become needy and lose the INTP. ENFJ is afraid that the INTP only wants sex and does not love her. ENFJ spills all of her fears to INTP and tells him what she needs. INTP feels cornered and pressured to make a decision right now. INTP draws back. ENFJ pulls close. This cycle continues for a few message exchanges until the whole thing ends.

My INTP fling from post-grad days--

Everything is fun and light. ENFJ knows that INTP is not a serious long-term prospect for her and does not do the deed. INTP might have actually been thinking more seriously, but ENFJ would not have known based on his actions. ENFJ tries to corner INTP about plans one night. INTP expresses reticence. ENFJ ends it before she can get anymore hurt.

INTP's whom I've never dated but in whom I've been interested--

This one may be your woman, lastman. ENFJ and INTP flirt. ENFJ really likes INTP. She even kind of wants him. But she knows that ultimately she will be the one to get hurt in the end--that it will be like the scenarios above. She really wants for the INTP to be able to give her all of the attention, verbal affirmation, closeness, and reassurance she wants. She wants the INTP to be able to understand her point of view completely. But she is afraid to even try to go there because she sees some things that show her that once the INTP got what he thinks he wants he wouldn't really want it like he thinks he does. It would end. And she would not only feel hurt but feel awful about herself for putting him in that position and for seeking something so far out of the INTP comfort zone.

Now, it's possible that there is another pattern.

And I am still hanging in there a little bit with my INTP to try to crack the pattern. But I'm feeling like our world views are so dissimilar that I'm not sure that he could ever understand me the way I need. And I am seeing ways that I am going to need that understanding from my partner. Could a different INTP give it? Maybe. I've PM'd with one of you who has been very empathetic about some things and very insightful--that bodes well for INTP's.

The take-away for you.

But I'm just saying--these things could all be issues with her. That being said, I have to say that I always hate when people say, "Oh, well, it wouldn't have worked out anyway," or "Oh, well, then obviously he's not the right guy for you." No shit! But it's still disappointing when you think something is going to work out with someone and it doesn't. It's disappointing when someone isn't the right guy or right woman.

Plus, I don't know about you all--but for me--I always wonder--"Is he not?"--or is there something that I could have done differently--some lesson that I've yet to learn--that if I knew it and applied it, would have made it work--have I failed with someone who could have easily been my soulmate.

In your case, I'd say, "No, you have not failed. You took the right approach with her, and she has other things going on right now."
 

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Dating us, some things to note:

1. If you are interested, make the first move. Come sit down next to us, say hello, anything. INTPs are not good at picking up subtle cues of interest like eye flirting, and even if we are obsessed by you the chances are that we will not say anything.

2. Understand that we feel awkward expressing our emotions. As a poster mentioned earlier, this doesn't mean that we don't care for you - you'd know if we didn't. Be persistent.

3. A good way to connect with us is to try asking questions about something that we are working on, or some of our ideas that you may have heard about. We love talking about these kinds of things.

4. We need daily "down time", periods where we retreat into a quiet space alone, rest and recharge. This is not a rejection of you, simply a part of our personality.

5. Sorry, but we do not celebrate Valentine's Day.
 

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1. If you are interested, make the first move. Come sit down next to us, say hello, anything. INTPs are not good at picking up subtle cues of interest like eye flirting, and even if we are obsessed by you the chances are that we will not say anything.
Any way to make an INTP feel open to saying if they are interested?

2. Understand that we feel awkward expressing our emotions. As a poster mentioned earlier, this doesn't mean that we don't care for you - you'd know if we didn't. Be persistent.
What did you have in mind when you said persistent? Too much persistence can sometimes be off putting which is why I ask.

5. Sorry, but we do not celebrate Valentine's Day.
From experience you guys do except gifts on valentines day. Though I've never sent a cheesy hearts and chocolates gift before, that could be a different story.



Also is it normal for INTPs to care about someone but still not respond to his messages after a few days of the message being read? Even if your making plans with her? The responses are as if no time has passed which is not the problem but a sign that things are fine. I guess I just find it odd.

This does lead into another question. How can I tell her I would like to hear back a bit more often without pressuring her? Even if her response is, "Can't skype/talk, busy schedule". Or should I not say anything at all if I can deal with it myself?
 

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Any way to make an INTP feel open to saying if they are interested?
I can't speak for INTP girls, as I think behaviour differs as between males and females than it does between personality types if not more. My posts were really stereotypical about INTP males. Speaking for myself, I would say that any girls just have to take the initiative, but I know that that is not a female thing to do.

What did you have in mind when you said persistent? Too much persistence can sometimes be off putting which is why I ask.
What I mean is, if you don't get a response straight away, don't take that as rejection, it could just be shyness, especially in a girl. Try again at the next opportunity you have to see them. Also, I personally am much more receptive to a question that shows interest like "can I see what your doing" or a specific compliment like "i really liked what you said about..." than just saying "hello", or something.

From experience you guys do except gifts on valentines day. Though I've never sent a cheesy hearts and chocolates gift before, that could be a different story.
You obviously didn't realise, but that #5 was a joke. Well, a half-joke :D

Also is it normal to not have a read message responded to for a few days? Then messages being responded to like nothing changed. Nothing may have changed I am just trying to get used to the idea a message being read but not responded to for a few days.
Context is everything...do you know this girl well? Are you in a relationship? Her responsiveness will change a lot. And women are notoriously fickle to boot. I can't help you here unfortunately, nor do I think this is mainly a personality as much as a girl issue.
 

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Context is everything...do you know this girl well? Are you in a relationship? Her responsiveness will change a lot. And women are notoriously fickle to boot. I can't help you here unfortunately, nor do I think this is mainly a personality as much as a girl issue.
Dude, have you ever actually LOOKED at male behaviours?

'Notoriously fickle females' is only a thing because obviously male irrational behaviours are perfectly reasonable to the ones who decide how to judge everything in the world :p
See also: why women throughout history kept entire countries afloat behind the screens because it's a waste of time to get the bags of testosterone to wise the fuck up, and it's more efficient to let them think they're so clever and powerful so they go waste time on bullshit rather than deciding they should incompetently mess with the actually important bits.

I've heard of INTP males in budding relationships acting no less like a powderkeg of unpredictable derp than the girls, man. If anything I get the impression INTP females usually do a better job of hooking up/dealing with relationships than the guys here, dunno if anyone else noticed this here? *looks around*
 

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Any way to make an INTP feel open to saying if they are interested?


What did you have in mind when you said persistent? Too much persistence can sometimes be off putting which is why I ask.


From experience you guys do except gifts on valentines day. Though I've never sent a cheesy hearts and chocolates gift before, that could be a different story.



Also is it normal for INTPs to care about someone but still not respond to his messages after a few days of the message being read? Even if your making plans with her? The responses are as if no time has passed which is not the problem but a sign that things are fine. I guess I just find it odd.

This does lead into another question. How can I tell her I would like to hear back a bit more often without pressuring her? Even if her response is, "Can't skype/talk, busy schedule". Or should I not say anything at all if I can deal with it myself?
I've never met another female INTP AFAIK so I can only speak for myself here, and in my own case I'm not sure where INTP ends and lack of interpersonal confidence begins. But I'll do my best.

Personally, I won't tell you that I'm interested. I'll show you that I'm interested. Physically, in all likelihood, because I am unsubtle - but otherwise probably by paying you attention, talking to you a lot and random acts of kindness, But mainly in terms of physical flirting/affection. I'm not great at verbalising these things. I'm more straightforward than romantic. Last time a guy told me he liked me, I think I said "Aww, thanks" and didn't say it back. I figured it went without saying because, duh, I was hooking up with him. But I guess some types don't work that way.

I think little gifts are a cute, practical way of showing appreciation for someone - "hey, I saw this and thought of you" - and if you get me something like a second-hand book or an obscure CD or something, I'll be really touched. Those "I really like this, and I want you to like it as much as I do" kind of gifts - sharing interests. Or food. Food is always stellar. But I'm thinking more casual, "I just so happened to pick this up from the store" kind of presentation, not something too obviously and formally gift-y like your example. It puts too much pressure on reciprocation, either in the form of a gift in return or continued/more serious emotional involvement. I think it all depends a lot on context and how well you know someone. Too early on and it could freak her out. I know it would freak me out. It can come across as trying to buy favour.

Your question about the messages - it could be influenced by so many different factors, but generally speaking, when someone is slow/inconsistent with replying to messages or patchy with communication, it means they're losing interest. Speaking from experience as a female INTP who's done it, as someone who's had a male INTP do it to her, and has also had experience with it from guys and gals of other personality types. It's not a nice thing to acknowledge, but if she was keen to talk to you she would be proactive about talking to you. And leaving you in the lurch about making plans like that - that's just plain rude. Basically, though, it all depends on how speedy she usually is with replies. If it's always like this and she's not a big texter, then don't sweat it. If you know (for sure) that she's busy or stressed or something, don't sweat it. But if she's young, in particular, chances are she's surgically attached to her phone like the rest of us. She's seen your message, but replying is no longer her priority. Not a good sign. If I were you, man, I'd have one hand on your coat and one eye on the door. Prepare to get en route to greener pastures.

As for whether to talk to her about it... well, it depends on your relationship. If her lack of replies are just circumstantial and she doesn't realise it's concerning you, she'll likely take it well. I think INTPs like that kind of straightforward communication, because we're not so stellar at picking up on nonverbal emotional/empathic cues - we need things spelled out to us. But on the other hand, if her replies are really due to loss of interest and she's effectively pulling the dreaded fadeout on you, a question like that is going to backfire.




Context is everything...do you know this girl well? Are you in a relationship? Her responsiveness will change a lot. And women are notoriously fickle to boot. I can't help you here unfortunately, nor do I think this is mainly a personality as much as a girl issue.
Trust me, it's not a girl issue. It's a human nature issue. Men are as fickle and hot-and-cold as this too.
 

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I think little gifts are a cute, practical way of showing appreciation for someone - "hey, I saw this and thought of you" - and if you get me something like a second-hand book or an obscure CD or something, I'll be really touched. Those "I really like this, and I want you to like it as much as I do" kind of gifts - sharing interests. Or food. Food is always stellar. But I'm thinking more casual, "I just so happened to pick this up from the store" kind of presentation, not something too obviously and formally gift-y like your example. It puts too much pressure on reciprocation, either in the form of a gift in return or continued/more serious emotional involvement. I think it all depends a lot on context and how well you know someone. Too early on and it could freak her out. I know it would freak me out. It can come across as trying to buy favour.
I've read this type of response to gifts, from INTP, quiet a bit and even more glad that she accepted the last gift I sent her very well. Even went as far to tell post it on facebook and let everyone know. Although like I mentioned it wasn't mushy gushy hearts, it was a more personal gift of something she really likes.



Your question about the messages - it could be influenced by so many different factors, but generally speaking, when someone is slow/inconsistent with replying to messages or patchy with communication, it means they're losing interest. Speaking from experience as a female INTP who's done it, as someone who's had a male INTP do it to her, and has also had experience with it from guys and gals of other personality types. It's not a nice thing to acknowledge, but if she was keen to talk to you she would be proactive about talking to you. And leaving you in the lurch about making plans like that - that's just plain rude. Basically, though, it all depends on how speedy she usually is with replies. If it's always like this and she's not a big texter, then don't sweat it. If you know (for sure) that she's busy or stressed or something, don't sweat it. But if she's young, in particular, chances are she's surgically attached to her phone like the rest of us. She's seen your message, but replying is no longer her priority. Not a good sign. If I were you, man, I'd have one hand on your coat and one eye on the door. Prepare to get en route to greener pastures.

As for whether to talk to her about it... well, it depends on your relationship. If her lack of replies are just circumstantial and she doesn't realise it's concerning you, she'll likely take it well. I think INTPs like that kind of straightforward communication, because we're not so stellar at picking up on nonverbal emotional/empathic cues - we need things spelled out to us. But on the other hand, if her replies are really due to loss of interest and she's effectively pulling the dreaded fadeout on you, a question like that is going to backfire.
Yea I am pretty sure it is circumstantial, especially since this is kinda normal to not hear from her for a few days or a week, and I just need to understand that; she's at school, she works, etc. Plus we don't text, we talk over facebook. Often enough I don't see her online, or message seen, for a week at a time. I've been meaning to ask her if there is an easier way to contact her, since she isn't online often. I'm waiting until she responds as to not send two messages in a row like that.

She also gets very caught up in the things she is doing which I've heard is an INTP attribute(?). For example once she hadn't replied for 3 weeks than I sent her a little message, or something, and she got back to me like nothing happened and felt bad for having forgotten to reply. Still don't see how someone wouldn't have the time to respond with even a short message "I want to but I am to busy so I can't". Then again she doesn't really message like that and I've never said that I appreciate even that type of response.

I don't like to message multiple times in a row so if she never replied it leaves me hanging as to when I might talk to her again. Although is it an annoyance to get multiple message in a row? I don't necessarily find it annoying but I know if your busy and caught up in something it could be?


Trust me, it's not a girl issue. It's a human nature issue. Men are as fickle and hot-and-cold as this too.
Agreed, I find at times the right question popping up in my head can cause me to be a bit fickle and forget what I was really thinking. I also personally know a few guys who are fickle.
 
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