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Actually, I think it's fashionable for gender-biology essentialists to claim that they are unfashionable and counter-cultural and boldly speaking the un-politically correct truth, but in reality it is a common belief and regularly espoused in books, the press, casual conversation by the vast majority of people, etc etc. Not to say that there isn't another side - that differences are to some large extent culturally informed - but it is more of a debate than an ideological hegemony.
I agree with this entirely.
 

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Your whole post sounds like you've absorbed a load of ideas from, I don't know, trying to get off with women in bars etc? Perhaps not actually that, but generally coming face up against a predominant dating/"hooking up" culture almost entirely unamenable to INTPs of either sex. I don't think that justifies your conclusions though, including the seeming resentment you've got.

Firstly, so many women I know find shy men attractive - and so many shy men are happily married/partnered - that I don't really understand where your statement that women don't like shy men comes from.
I wouldn't go near most bars as it's a complete rip-off in every way. The beer is too expensive for its quality and I hate the atmosphere, plus you have to expend energy to get there in the first place. The last thing on my mind there would be chatting up women. But yeah, the bars I have occasionally gone to have a pretty unbalanced man-woman ratio.

I'll just say that you definitely live a long way away from me. My statement comes from a number of media...my own experience, listening to other guys talk about theirs and also reading various material. I'm going through this atm, very interesting: http://manhood101.com/principles101.pdf

It's odd that you say this is naturally how we work, while implying that you are incapable of performing accordingly. Yet you don't wish to "fix" yourself, but ask that women go out of their way to accommodate you by "deviating from nature" by approaching you. Something is inconsistent here - maybe your belief in gender essentialism isn't as strong as you'd think, but just allowing you to project feelings of frustration onto those you have made "other" i.e. women.

I would also say that actually the facts don't add up: women (at least at this time in my country) frequently approach men (even if only by showing interest in more indirect ways - as you say you'd like) - as frequently as men do women - "men have to do all the work" is an outdated (if it were ever true) myth bandied about by unhappily single men.
Hey, I freely admit that I have issues which need fixing. It's evidently a new experience for you noticing someone modest and honest enough to acknowledge that they don't match up to their standards (yet)? I also kind of posted a rhetorical question. Yes, I would like girls to come up to me and instigate things, but it just doesn't happen. I also do think it is my job to make more of an effort and are working on improving myself. That should be commendable.

I rate myself as a reasonably desirable creature. Girls will come up and sit beside me, try to get near me...but they won't talk to me. They never volunteer anything, yet these same girls I have observed are very socially confident among their friends, and talking to new girls. So, it's not an introvert/extrovert thing.

In my country, the only men who get actively pursued by women are of extremely high status, sports stars, successful musicians and so on. If your country is different, it is because the women have undergone environmental change. I am of English blood just like you. Increased assertiveness to men is one of the very few positive side effects of feminism.

Speak for yourself, won't you? With this and "Let's be honest, men and women are different." you are unappealingly and unfoundedly extrapolating from your own opinion to universal opinion/fact. Also, define "acts like a man/woman". If one were to accept this point, though, being as you are by your own reckoning acting like a woman (by wanting to be approached instead of approaching), then perhaps you should not be surprised that women are not approaching you, as that is no more attractive than a woman acting like a man.
Haha, this is obscene relativism, and you have zero credibility now. Men and women aren't different? Then how come I can't get pregnant, and you can. For a slightly less blatant and more relevant example, men and women have differing densities of grey and white matter and more more likely to get certain types of mental disorders. We are built differently you know, and I actually like that. I could go on, but somehow I sense it would be like talking to a brick wall.

So now we go on to what is "masculine" behaviour? Well, the most striking examples are dominance and authority. I'm personally trying to improve myself in these areas, because I know that already having done so even a little bit i have become more attractive, got more attention.

Please don't.
C'mon, bet you'd like a guy like this to "take control":



More so than one who you could order around.



Don't you despise that man doing all the housework? You'd never fuck him. Yet, guys like that are "the ideal" according to gender egalitarians.

Actually, I think it's fashionable for gender-biology essentialists to claim that they are unfashionable and counter-cultural and boldly speaking the un-politically correct truth, but in reality it is a common belief and regularly espoused in books, the press, casual conversation by the vast majority of people, etc etc. Not to say that there isn't another side - that differences are to some large extent culturally informed - but it is more of a debate than an ideological hegemony.
It doesn't matter how popular or unpopular something is, simply whether it is true or false. It's an unspoken mantra amongst men that womens' instincts about men and sexuality vastly conflict with their stated beliefs, and this is especially true of feminists and other "strong women". They all want to be pushed against a wall and have their clothes ripped off.

I mention this becuase i read an article in Psychology Today that over half of women could have fantasies of rape (which requires submission) Why Do Women Have Erotic Rape Fantasies? | Psychology Today I'm going to quote this part of the article where the author suggests possible causes, which is quite relevant to my point about the instinctive female perception of gender roles:

"In one survey of romance novels (which tend to be written by and for women), the lead female character was raped in 54%. The male heroes are usually rugged warrior types and these books may illustrate a desire to "conquer the heart of the rapist" and tame him for marriage."

Yeah, I know this is just one teeny tiny article. I'm sure I'll get hell for the expose, but it's worth it. I am not going to change my view that gender differences are quite instinctive, and that further, you are being dishonest and misleading to the men here. This isn't even about personality. It's a lot more fundamental than that.
 

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Seeing her go on and offline a few times and not getting a response. Pretty sure Facebook did not notify her as she has not 'seen' my message, who knows.

:rolleyes:

Kind of want to say "Hi" and see what's up but not really after having already sent her 2.5 messages. Still not doing so well with this communication thing and asking for what I want...

Never mind, she went offline after I had decided to send her a message but not before. Missed the opportunity to be more proactive and instead worried how she would react.
 

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As someone who's on the receiving end of the INTP communication style, @jddg5wa, i can completely empathize.

Though i'm sorry i can't offer any advice.

The wait can really sap your confidence and plant more doubt in your mind. =(

I can tell you though, that it's not a good indicator of her interest in you.

I'd just recently concluded a date with my INTP where i finally managed to get her to admit she had feelings for me. (that's not something an INTP will lie about right?)

But i sent her couple of texts last night, and no answer from her for almost a day.

It's something you just gotta get used to when dealing with an INTP, i suppose.

So i guess what i'm trying to say is, hang in there. haha
 

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So here's the update on my INTP. He said that he had to take some time to himself to decide whether to stay together. He was very cold in his email to me during that time, and I thought he was breaking it off. But now that he has taken that time, he says that he wants to stay together. I guess we cannot put too much stock in their cold moments. Still, if this thing of deciding whether to stay together becomes a regular pattern, I'm not going to be able to hang in there. I suppose we are always deciding whether to be together--but it's knowing that someone wants to consider breaking up that is stressful.

Jddg5wa, I know that you want to do it. I understand the compulsion and have been there. But do not message her again. She can see that she has messages. Facebook only shows that the message has been seen after the person clicks on that. She could be intentionally not clicking on it because she does not want to feel pressured. This kind of thing can be a real thing with them. The more you pressure her--the more difficult it will be come.

Go out and exercise. Get out of the house. Go spend time with friends. Leave your phone behind so that you cannot check Facebook. Download anti-social and block communication to keep yourself from checking.

Hugs!
 

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As someone who's on the receiving end of the INTP communication style, @jddg5wa, i can completely empathize.

Though i'm sorry i can't offer any advice.

The wait can really sap your confidence and plant more doubt in your mind. =(

I can tell you though, that it's not a good indicator of her interest in you.

I'd just recently concluded a date with my INTP where i finally managed to get her to admit she had feelings for me. (that's not something an INTP will lie about right?)

But i sent her couple of texts last night, and no answer from her for almost a day.

It's something you just gotta get used to when dealing with an INTP, i suppose.

So i guess what i'm trying to say is, hang in there. haha
Yea, i honestly don't mind the wait as I understand the reasons behind it. I just dislike the doubt and worry that creep into my mind. I'm learning though that those thoughts do not help any and are no sign of how things actually.

Also I am pretty sure that an INTP would not lie about feelings. The INTP has told me that she would never lie to someone to make them feel better. I feel like that has something to do with being straightforward about things and so a lot of people may be the same way.

So here's the update on my INTP. He said that he had to take some time to himself to decide whether to stay together. He was very cold in his email to me during that time, and I thought he was breaking it off. But now that he has taken that time, he says that he wants to stay together. I guess we cannot put too much stock in their cold moments. Still, if this thing of deciding whether to stay together becomes a regular pattern, I'm not going to be able to hang in there. I suppose we are always deciding whether to be together--but it's knowing that someone wants to consider breaking up that is stressful.

Jddg5wa, I know that you want to do it. I understand the compulsion and have been there. But do not message her again. She can see that she has messages. Facebook only shows that the message has been seen after the person clicks on that. She could be intentionally not clicking on it because she does not want to feel pressured. This kind of thing can be a real thing with them. The more you pressure her--the more difficult it will be come.

Go out and exercise. Get out of the house. Go spend time with friends. Leave your phone behind so that you cannot check Facebook. Download anti-social and block communication to keep yourself from checking.

Hugs!
I was thinking the exact same thing about messaging her. But I decided to be crazy and throw caution to the wind; I messaged her when she came back online. Although when I messaged her I did not pressure for any response to previous messages. It worked out because things were not going well for her and we talked. We even made plans to talk at a later time too so the "payoff" was way better than any of the worries I had.

Also I find it interesting that she showed me her vulnerable side. I know no one is void of emotion but she doesn't often show it. Even most of my friends don't, only my closest friends have which I guess is a good sign with her.
 

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It doesn't matter how popular or unpopular something is, simply whether it is true or false. It's an unspoken mantra amongst men that womens' instincts about men and sexuality vastly conflict with their stated beliefs, and this is especially true of feminists and other "strong women". They all want to be pushed against a wall and have their clothes ripped off.
It took me quite some time to figure out which part of your post to respond to, in fact there were so many points I felt impelled counter that I felt like the donkey who, in indecision, starved to death surrounded by identically sized mounds of hay. Eventually I chose the section quoted above as it was the most nonsensical in my personal opinion.
Firstly, the fact that something is an unspoken mantra amongst men (leaving aside the issue of whether or not it actually is) is irrelevant, as you yourself have put in the previous sentence that only truth matters, not popular opinion.
Secondly I take issue with your particularly misogynist view, which seems to me to be (and apologies if this comes across as me putting words in your mouth) that women lie about or do not know want they want in a partner, and secretly all yearn to be dominated by a male. Such a statement, as well as being presumptuous and rude in all the usual ways, overzealously attacks women for not knowing exactly what they want in a partner, despite the fact that this is something felt by both genres, not just women. For example, take the cliché of a woman developing feelings for a more confident and better looking man who is also a bit of a dick, despite having always maintained she wanted someone sweet, caring and dependable. This is a situation just as equally found in men, who may for example develop feelings for women who are good looking and desirable yet also shallow and rude, despite having always maintained to want someone who they can connect with more easily.

Both genders experience conflict between our biological urges and what we know would make us happy. Perhaps you should not be quite so quick to judge women for this when I expect that you experience the same.
 

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It doesn't matter how popular or unpopular something is, simply whether it is true or false. It's an unspoken mantra amongst men that womens' instincts about men and sexuality vastly conflict with their stated beliefs, and this is especially true of feminists and other "strong women". They all want to be pushed against a wall and have their clothes ripped off.
There's a huge difference between what someone desires sexually and what they want out of a relationship. A lot of people are into sexual domination/submission, but in most cases I'd say that dynamic doesn't leave the bedroom. Also, it's a mistake to state that all women are into it - and of those who are, a proportion will be taking the dominant role themselves.
 

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It's hilarious how many people have gone nuts over some pretty obvious trolling.

I posted in another thread how a big INTP problem was an under-developed sense of humour.

If you or anyone else wants to know what I think about gender issues, just send me a PM. I'm more open than I may appear at first.
Well I guess your post does provide evidence for the under developed sense of humour idea :p
 

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So I just signed up on an online dating site, and I feel like a dork for doing it, but I was bored. So far, for the most part, my preconceptions were right: I do prefer to meet guys organically in social situations, like parties or whatever. But might as well give it a go, because why the hell not.

What the hell do you write in your profile? For the most part, all of the traits we INTPs share - introversion, thinking a lot, maybe-excessive logic, and y'know P-ness - are seen as negatives. I have no idea how to describe my personality.
 

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So I just signed up on an online dating site, and I feel like a dork for doing it, but I was bored. So far, for the most part, my preconceptions were right: I do prefer to meet guys organically in social situations, like parties or whatever. But might as well give it a go, because why the hell not.

What the hell do you write in your profile? For the most part, all of the traits we INTPs share - introversion, thinking a lot, maybe-excessive logic, and y'know P-ness - are seen as negatives. I have no idea how to describe my personality.
I do not do the online thing but the first question is what kind of people do you want? Then what do those people want? How does my lifestyle and personal qualities fit in there? Write that final answer.

Target your market.
 

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What the hell do you write in your profile? For the most part, all of the traits we INTPs share - introversion, thinking a lot, maybe-excessive logic, and y'know P-ness - are seen as negatives. I have no idea how to describe my personality.
The only tips I have on photos are - no selfies (says the guy with the selfie in his profile). And don't have a hundred pictures of yourself with you pets.
Talk about what you're studying, show off what sort of sense of humor you have. Throw in that you're quiet at first but comfortable with the right sort of guy who doesn't mind being patient getting to know you. Maybe something silly that you like to do that hints you have a bit of depth to you as well.
I like knowing what I can tease a girl about on her profile.
 

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So I just signed up on an online dating site, and I feel like a dork for doing it, but I was bored. So far, for the most part, my preconceptions were right: I do prefer to meet guys organically in social situations, like parties or whatever. But might as well give it a go, because why the hell not.

What the hell do you write in your profile? For the most part, all of the traits we INTPs share - introversion, thinking a lot, maybe-excessive logic, and y'know P-ness - are seen as negatives. I have no idea how to describe my personality.
I'm no expert but you could always try talking about your interests as opposed to your personality. Its supposed to be an INTP trait to become very enthusiastic and talkative about the things we find interesting.
If that doesn't work maybe just try and describe your traits in a way that isn't as cynical as the ways in which INTPs have a tendency to describe themselves (although there's probably nothing wrong with a tiny bit of-self deprecation). If it doesn't quite meet the cliche profile of being super confidant and outgoing etc. then don't worry as the upside is that it will make you stand out and seem like someone deeper and more interesting, who people will be curious to find out more about.
Of course I could be mistaken and may have just given you the worst advice possible, so don't take my word for it :p
 

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It's hilarious how many people have gone nuts over some pretty obvious trolling.

I posted in another thread how a big INTP problem was an under-developed sense of humour.

If you or anyone else wants to know what I think about gender issues, just send me a PM. I'm more open than I may appear at first.
Well, well done for being a troll. We need someone round here to dupe stupid people into thinking you're being an obnoxious prick when, actually, you're being, err...

It was a good long post too, must have taken quite some effort for it to be so consistently amusingly provocative.
 

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I kind of feel I have been pressuring this girl a bit. My eagerness to keep in touch probably shows through and I just get a small vibe that I may be pressuring her. Is it possible to back away and giver her space without no contact? I mean she rarely initiates contact. That could be because I usually talk to her first. Still is it possible to back away and still be the one to keep in touch?'

Honestly I can't say I am to the point of pressuring her but I'm realizing I am close to it. Trying to catch myself before I do something stupid.
 
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